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Archive 2012 · Confused, what does this all mean?
  
 
dortizphoto
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Confused, what does this all mean?


Greetings everyone!

I'm somewhat confused by something and quite frankly feel like an IDIOT asking, but here goes...

My lab supports uploads of .jpeg, .tiff, .png, and .gif

My current plan allows me to upload files up to 24MB in size. With my 10MP canon 1D3 I'll never see that much data, EXCEPT when I export a file as a TIFF which causes my file to end up as a whopping 50MB file!

So my question is .. where my exported RAW into .jpeg file is only 6.6MB will the exported .tiff at 50MB size yield larger "quality" prints since there's so much more data in the exported file?

I only ask because I can pay an additional $150.00 a year to be allowed no cap on file size, but want to make sure uploading a tiff sized file will allow my clients to order larger sized quality prints. Hope I'm explaining this correctly. Heck, my original RAW file isn't that big.

Regards,
Dave, confused.



Jan 14, 2012 at 02:43 PM
Ho1972
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Confused, what does this all mean?


For prints? In a word, no.

Assuming your jpegs are saved with the appropriate compression (~ level 10 in Photoshop, not sure what the actual jpeg nomenclature is), then the file will be perfectly suitable for virtually every purpose. I routinely send jpegs to be printed at 20x30 inches.

Edited on Jan 14, 2012 at 03:01 PM · View previous versions



Jan 14, 2012 at 02:55 PM
dortizphoto
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Confused, what does this all mean?


Ho1972 wrote:
For prints? In a word, no.

Assuming your jpegs are saved with the appropriate compression (level 10 in Photoshop, not sure what the actual jpeg nomenclature is), then the file will be perfectly suitable for virtually every purpose. I routinely send jpegs to be printed at 20x30 inches.


I understand what you mean, and thank you for explaining this. I saved my file as a 6.6MB file from my 1D3 10.1MP camera. This is what I see relative to prints..








Jan 14, 2012 at 03:00 PM
BobCollette
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Confused, what does this all mean?


I assume that you're saving uncompressed TIFFs, hence the large file size. TIFF also supports LZW (Lempel Ziv Welch) lossless compression which may significantly reduce the file size (depends upon the image content). JPEG is a lossy compression file format, meaning that the decompressed image, while visually looking the same or nearly the same as the orginal, is actually slightly different from the original. The higher the quality factor, the larger the file size, however the image will be closer to the original (fewer compression artifacts). One thing you should be aware with JPEG files is that every time you open a file and save it, you're degrading the image further. Unlike TIFF or PSD, where you can open & save an image 1000 times and still have it be exactly the same as the original file, JPEG degrades the image every time you open & save it. So, if you're working on a file and it's going to take several sessions to complete it (can't do it all in one session), you should save your intermediate work in TIFF or PSD format until you're finished, and then convert to JPEG for sending out for printing.


Jan 14, 2012 at 06:19 PM
WAYCOOL
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Confused, what does this all mean?


No mater what format you save to you will still get the warning at the 24x36" size be cause of the dimensions of the photo not the file size.


Jan 14, 2012 at 07:57 PM
raw shooter
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Confused, what does this all mean?


If you want the best print possible - color and sharpness - then saving the raw processed file as a TIFF is the best you can do.
Im my workflow, all prints are saved as TIFF files. JPG is great for screen views and snapshots, but it is a compromise in image quality.
Printing my own doesn't require the choice you have been required for uploading. Saying that, I would pay the extra charge to upload TIFF. JMO



Jan 14, 2012 at 09:02 PM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Confused, what does this all mean?


You need to be more concerned with the number of pixels in your file for printing and how far apart they're spread for a specific image size.

As has been explained, you have the choice of saving a file uncompressed, with lossless compression or with lossy compression.

The typical workflow for your type of situation would be to save an uncompressed 16 bit per channel tiff file from your raw file and make whatever changes to the file in terms of color, retouching, layering, etc. in Photoshop, save that, then make a duplicate copy of that file to upload to the printer and save that as a jpeg, usually a number 8 or higher. If you work entirely within Lightroom or Aperture, you would do whatever manipulations necessary there and then export a jpeg to be uploaded.

The size of a saved jpeg on disc depends on both the quality level you choose and image content. If you start with two images of the same pixel dimensions, one with a complicated busy background and the other with a pure white background, the white one will save as a much smaller file even with the same compression settings.

Tiff files also support zip and jpeg compression, although you should never use jpeg compression on a tiff as it sort of defeats the purpose of tiff. Zip compression, however is completely lossless and much more efficient than LZW compression resulting in much smaller files, but does take longer to save. Zip compression also works great with 16 bit per channel files while LZW often results in files that are actually larger than the uncompressed files (when the 16 bit files are actually 12 or 14 and not true 16).

While it's generally true that repeated saving as jpeg further degrades the file, you actually have to change at least one pixel value for that to happen. If you just dupe the file and save it with the same compression level, it will not degrade, but change one pixel from 243 to 244 or change the compression quality at all, then it will degrade.



Jan 14, 2012 at 09:22 PM
dortizphoto
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Confused, what does this all mean?


Thanks everyone for your valued time and feedback. Some of your answers are somewhat too deep for my simpleton mind to fully understand. I use Lightroom v3, I import my RAW files, PP them - then export as JPEG. My exported JPGs from my Canon 1D3 average 6-7mb each, while the same exact file exported in TIFF is HUGE by comparison.

So taking the above into account, do I pay the added $150 a year to Zenfolio so I don't have a 24mb cap, or does it really not matter when it comes to the quality of prints. (same EXACT exported RAW file JPEF vs TIFF for print)?

Thanks again everyone,
Dave



Jan 15, 2012 at 02:04 AM
 

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colinm
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Confused, what does this all mean?


Test it yourself.

Odds are, you will see zero tangible difference between a level 10 JPEG (what most labs recommend) and a TIFF.

In a very narrow set of circumstances, I can see a difference. But even then it's not worth bothering with TIFF.



Jan 15, 2012 at 02:24 AM
cwebster
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Confused, what does this all mean?


The only difference you will see between uploading a JPEG and a TIFF for printing will be in upload time ;-)

Seriously, if you are not a pro dealing with magazine art departments, you need not worry about sending anyone TIFF files.

The Insufficient Resolution warning is about the absolute number of pixels. A 24 X 36" print at 300 dpi must be 7,200 by 10,800 pixels. At 200 dpi it must be 4,800 X 7,200 pixels. Unless you upscale your camera images to those sizes, you will always get that warning. That doesn't mean your photo is not usable at those sizes, it means you need to look closely as size vs viewing distance to see if you really do have enough pixels.

<Chas>



Jan 15, 2012 at 02:52 AM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Confused, what does this all mean?


I recently printed a test of the same image printed on my Epson 9900 from the original tiff, and multiple saved jpeg versions ranging from a #10 down to a #2 level jpeg. The images were all 24 x 36 inches - large enough to see if there were going to be any serious problems. Bottom line was that visibly, even on close inspection, you had to get down to a #2 level jpeg in order to start to see posterization in the sky. So, saving a jpeg with #8 or #10 will be just fine for your printing purposes. For how you're printing, you're going to be just fine with jpeg.


Jan 15, 2012 at 03:05 AM
dortizphoto
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Confused, what does this all mean?


OK, point well taken. The largest size I offer anyway is 16x20, so I was curious because I have direct fulfillment enabled and didn't want one of my customers receiving something hideously pixelated.

Thanks again everyone.
Dave



Jan 15, 2012 at 03:20 AM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Confused, what does this all mean?


Dave - It's only ever a problem if you've taken a file already saved as a jpeg and tweak the hell out of it. Then you might see gradations that aren't as smooth as you'd expect. And in terms of pixelation, that would only be from not having enough pixels so your print was printing at something like 72 dpi rather than 300. And to be honest, anything above 180-200 is going to fine for pixelation.


Jan 15, 2012 at 06:08 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Confused, what does this all mean?


+1 @ <300

My mental threshholds are something like:

225-300 = 0 concerns
175-225 = hmmm, what will be the viewing distance ... oh yeah, still ok
150-175 = hmmm, what is this going to be printed on ... metal/gloss vs. rag/canvas, i.e. how much bleed/texture is there going to be anyway

I don't print a lot, but those are kinda my mental checkpoints for when I do.



Jan 15, 2012 at 11:12 AM
Methodical
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Confused, what does this all mean?


Dave, if you are using Mpix to print, they tell you the minimum PPI needed to print, which from what I can remember is 100 ppi; they even give an example of our to calculate the correct amount of pixels. I just crop my images using the standard 2x3 format so that I can offer multiple sizes without having to crop to any specific size. I do this for my sport images. I crop a bit loose so the buyer can crop the way the want before they buy.

If 16x20 is the max you offer, you can use Maxprep cropping formula below which puts you right at 16x20 and any size below. Do the following:

Input 16x21.6 in LR custom crop tab
Setup an export preset and enter 2166x2166 for the dim. and walla you're good to go.

With this formula, you can offer 16x20 and anything below and just eliminate those other bigger sizes in your price sheet.

Al



dortizphoto wrote:
OK, point well taken. The largest size I offer anyway is 16x20, so I was curious because I have direct fulfillment enabled and didn't want one of my customers receiving something hideously pixelated.

Thanks again everyone.
Dave




Jan 15, 2012 at 06:19 PM
rhyder
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Confused, what does this all mean?


colinm wrote:
Test it yourself.

Odds are, you will see zero tangible difference between a level 10 JPEG (what most labs recommend) and a TIFF.

In a very narrow set of circumstances, I can see a difference. But even then it's not worth bothering with TIFF.


There is no difference between a JPG saved ONCE at 12 than an uncompressed TIFF. The extra size of the TIFF file has nothing to do with the quality of the image. Its still the same resolution. It just that TIFF saves everybit of information associated with the file, including layers.

I newer use TIFF unless a client specifically asked for it. I save my processed raw files as PSDs.



Jan 16, 2012 at 07:10 PM





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