I don't know if this question belongs on one of the "gear" forums but I figure many landscape photographers here would be knowledgeable on this issue. I recently purchased the Canon 24 TS-E. I read up on the Scheimflug principle and how to focus with tilt adjustments on the Cambridge in Colo(u)r website.
So...I went out yesterday and meticulously focused, adjusted tilt, adjusted focus, adjusted tilt until the scene was sharp throughout. I had the lens set at F/8 and was using live view. I'd check the foreground focus at 5x, then scan towards the top and see how the focus was "at infinity." I'd then make the necessary focusing/tilting adjustments until everything from near to far was in focus according to live view. I made sure the camera was on Aperture Priority and set at F/8...I took my photos on the Manual setting also using F/8 as my aperture.
I was pleased with what I saw in live view and double checked the result once the picture was taken. However, once I uploaded them and viewed them on my computer then focusing isn't correct. I could have sworn it looked fine pre- and post-capture but the on-computer viewed results don't show sharpness throughout. It isn't camera shake or diffraction softness but just plain-old OOF. Is live-view the preferred way of focusing the TS-E lenses? Any advice would be much appreciated.
Yes, Live View is the way to go on the TS-E lenses. Did you check the view with the D-O-F button on your camera body? Also, why didn't you check at 10x?
What you describe is either setting at 3' (oof) or so or tilting up instead of down (causing the miniturization that you don't want) or too much tilt causing oof.
The first time I used my tilt/shift (rented), every picture was blurred. Almost turned me off on the lens. I think I was tilting up instead of down and causing miniturization on some and too close focussing on others.
At f8 it should be in focus from 10' to infinity if focussed near infinity. So I went back to checking where infinity is on my lens in the light and then leaving it there (okay sometimes I peak on the screen). It works fine now.
So practice the lens markings to get it right, and tune with live view and then check to see you have not gone to far on the lens as a final step is my suggestion. Because 24mm should be sharp near infinity from close to far .
I have also heard that the common mistake is too much tilt. Try experimenting in the light.
Aaron - Do you have the version one or version two 24 TS-E? The version one was more prone to slipping even when tightening the locknut down on the tilt or shift mechanism. If you were as meticulous as you describe, your images should be very sharp at f/8. That would right on the edge of starting diffraction with most cameras and really not noticeable anywhere. You need to get down to f/16 or greater for it to have a distinct visible effect.
Peter: I have the Mark 2 version. I forgot to lock on one shot but made sure the tilt didn't move in any of the previous shots.
Rajan: i didn't use the DOF preview button but did think of that as an extra step. I didn't use 10x on live view simply to make the scan from bottom to top go quicker...kind of lazy
Scott: Are you saying that you set the lens focus to infinity and then adjust the tilt as needed? This seems a lot smoother than the back and forth adjustments I was making.
Aaron Cowan wrote:
Thank you all for the feedback...
Peter: I have the Mark 2 version. I forgot to lock on one shot but made sure the tilt didn't move in any of the previous shots.
Rajan: i didn't use the DOF preview button but did think of that as an extra step. I didn't use 10x on live view simply to make the scan from bottom to top go quicker...kind of lazy
Scott: Are you saying that you set the lens focus to infinity and then adjust the tilt as needed? This seems a lot smoother than the back and forth adjustments I was making....Show more →
Aaron: Sorry for the long and many responses. What I am saying is:
1) it could be tilting too much or focussing too close. After my experimentation, I suspect former. f8 should have almost infinite focus near infinity at 24mm which suggests too much tilt.
2) a solution for focussing too close is to check the markings on your lens and make sure they are in a reasonable spot (3-start of infinity from my breif experience). Practically most landscapes are in the dark, so memorize the tilt that goes with the height that goes with the mm focus. Small tilt (1 line) plus near infinity is likely to work well.
3) I think focusing after tilting and watching where your mm focus point is is the right method.
3) and my experiment today shows that tilting beyond 3 small marks at 5'6" height will blur the image because your plain is wonky. I suspect max tilt would be needed if you close to the ground.
To learn how to use the tilt shift lens you need a simpler scene. One that is flatter, where you can easily define the focal plane. The problem is that downward tilt will not automatically buy you infinite dof, but when used properly will give you in-focus in a plane. The depth (or thickness) of the in-focus plane will depend upon your f stop. It will all become much easier if you choose a practice scene that is flat, without vertical components in the foreground. (your near field bushes complicate the definition of where the focal plane is). No over hanging branches, etc. as objects in the top of the frame will be oof unless they are at infinity, or unless you are tilting your focal plane L-R, etc. I first practiced in my driveway until I felt confident of my technique when very close to the ground.
Read this as an estimate of tilt angle: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/focusing-ts.shtml
Mike K
Example of flat plane (horizontal usually) 24 TSEII http://www.fototime.com/2299F4D2A3A13A6/orig.jpg
If the seaweed and rocks varied more in height, I would have had to use a smaller aperture to gain the greater dof to cover them.
I think the comments by Mike K are very appropriate and provide a critical clue - the Scheimpflug Principle applies to a PLANE. I tend to use mine at the ocean, and the following is something that was recommended to me.
I set the composition using a tripod, and focus the lens on infinity. Using Live View, zoom in 10X, and move the little square to the bottom of the frame (or the nearest object that should be in focus). Adjust the tilt to make this object sharp. I've shot seascapes this way at f/3.5, and they were sharp, but probably would have been better stopped down. However, I was trying to prove a point to myself that if the scene is a true plane, the lens would perform at f/3.5 - it did.
Once I learned this method, charts were pretty much gone. Now I have to master off angle tilt and shift.
As I'm sure you know, the object of tilting a lens forward is to place everything from the nearest object that you want to be in focus to the farthest object you want to be in focus on the same plane of focus. If the farthest object that you want to be in focus is at infinity then you could focus on it and then tilt to bring the nearest object into focus, then check to see what that might have done to the farthest object, and so on and so forth. But if the farthest object you want to be in focus isn't at infinity then you wouldn't of course focus at infinity, you'd focus on whatever that object is.
As I'm sure you also know, not every scene or situation is appropriate for the use of tilt. In many landscapes for example there will some object - a tree, a bush, whatever - in between the near and far objects that's sticking up above the top of the plane of focus and no amount of tilt will bring it and everything else into focus - you simply can't place everything on the same plane. Or sometimes there's a near object that's so high (the tree leaves in the upper left corner of Scott's photographs for example) that there is no plane of focus on which that object and everything else can be placed. In those kinds of situations you may need to both tilt and also stop down to get everything sharp. Or tilt may do you no good at all, in which case you forget about it.
I used a large format camera for many years and used tilt and swing often. So I thought I'd have no trouble at all using tilt or swing when I acquired my 24-TS-E II. But I've actually had more trouble than I was expecting. With a big 4x5 or 8x10 inch ground glass you can focus on the far, for example, and then gradually tilt to bring the near into focus while also watching what's happening to the far as you're tilting for the near. When you see that the far is getting out of focus then you stop, refocus on it, and continue tilting for the near. With an appropriate scene everything can be brought into focus in just one or two iterations of "focus - tilt - refocus."
But with Live View at 5X you can't usually see both the near and far objects at the same time so you can't see what's happening to the focus on one as you tilt for the other. Which is why you end up having to go back and forth between near and far as often as you did. And not only do you have to go back and forth, you have to also move the joy stick up for the far object, then back down for the near, then back up for the far, etc. etc. It's really kind of a PITA, at least it's seemed that way to me in the relatively short time I've had the TS-E.
It's nice to understand the Scheimpflug principle but I rarely found it to be all that useful with landscape photography because much of the time the point where the three planes meet will be somewhere underground and next to impossible to visualize.
I was writing this while others were replying. I think there's a lot of good suggestions in those responses, especially with Mike's suggestion that you use very simple scenes on which to practice.
I almost never use tilt/swing on my TS lenses for the very reasons given by campyone. There are almost always interfering verticals and horizonals that look weirdly OOF in landscape and architecture.
When I used to shoot 4x5, I used tilt a lot, but not for the normal reason. Shooting architecture with 65mm and 90mm, I was always pressing beyond the limits of the image circle to achieve enough vertical rise (occasionally downward). When you reach the edge of the image circle where vignetting occurs and IQ falls, by gently tilting the lens you can achieve coverage and by stopping down further than normal, you can achieve adequate sharpness. It will also work of digital to overcome extreme lens displacement.
Otherwise, I don't really need the tilt function, and use compositon and camera placement to get the image I want.
I'm sure you will figure this all out with practice. Good luck!
Mike: I'll check out the Luminous Landscape tutorial. I should've figured there'd be one on that site. I'm responding to this at work so I don't have access to specific examples. I was shooting along a river so the plane was relatively flat with the exception of the background bank rising in elevation. This is the first T/S lens I've ever used; it seems like there is a bit more of a learning curve with these. Still, it was really fun to play with the other day.
Glenn, campyone, Gunzorro: Thank you for the informative replies. I don't expect the tilt function to be a universal solution to shooting everything at F/16 or higher. I realize that tilting has a more specialized use. I stumbled across this on Monday when I was playing around with it. Some scenes just didn't cooperate and I found that shooting at F/16 with no tilt gave the best result. It sounds like not only is there a learning curve to properly applying tilt but also realizing the certain situations where tilting simply won't result in sharpness near to far. Thank you again for the suggestions and sharing your experience.
Aaron Cowan wrote:
I don't expect the tilt function to be a universal solution to shooting everything at F/16 or higher.
Choose a simpler scene to practice with, something flat, especially in the foreground. If you can't get everything sharp with the camera close to the ground at f 5.6 you are not ready yet for real scenes.
Mike K
Scott Stoness wrote:
I have also heard that the common mistake is too much tilt. Try experimenting in the light.
Scott
+1
You don't need much tilt on a 24mm lens, usually a few degrees is plenty. it's the 45mm and 90mm where more tilt is needed; it's roughly proportional to FL, so 45mm needs 2x the tilt of 24mm and 90mm needs 4x the tilt.
Aaron, thanks for asking the perfect question; I've a new 24 TS-E II, am loving it and it's accompanying challenge (read: confusion), and these answers are easy to understand, informative, and immediately applicable...I've bookmarked the thread...thanks again, everyone.
Tenn.Jer wrote:
Aaron, thanks for asking the perfect question; I've a new 24 TS-E II, am loving it and it's accompanying challenge (read: confusion), and these answers are easy to understand, informative, and immediately applicable...I've bookmarked the thread...thanks again, everyone.
Jerry
Thanks Aaron from myself as well. Spending some time experimenting helped me for the next time I am out in the dark. I also realized that being level is critical because otherwise I will be at a random tilt spot.
It is an old thread, but my 2 cents. I have 17mm TS-E and in 'normal' shooting scenarios I almost never go more than 1 in tilt, it is more like 0.5. Focus for the closest object I want to be sharp and tilt (slightly) so the furthest object in the scene is sharp, repeat few times and you have both of them spot on.
Note: This is not something which works on all scenes, works bets for seascapes, some landscapes, etc. If you have large objects sticking up (trees, rocks) it does not work (weird out of focus spots). In these cases I usually stick to 0 tilt and 'standard' focusing. With 17 or 24mm and F8-F11, it will be quite easy to achieve decent sharpness.
I find that setting my tilt angle based on an estimate of the distance of the camera from the desired tilted plane of focus save lots of time and frustration, and is plenty good for even shooting near to wide open with a 24mm or 17 mm tilt shift lens. The Luminous Landscape article covers the technique near the article's end, and the simple table needed for a given focal length of lens that they show is easy to have available. And even if you do not have the table, if you can just remember or write down one value, and approximate other values using a ratio calculation in your head.
An example value for a 24mm lens is that a 2.25 foot distance from the lens to the desired tilted plane of focus requires a 2 degree tilt, which is 2 marks on the scale for the Canon TS-E lenses. You can write that pair of values on a label on your lens cap, or even put it right on the lens with a small tape label. And actually Canon should have put something on the lens to begin with. Remember that the values change with different focal lengths. Note that the tilt angles are generally small for a lot of shooting with the wide angle TS-E's, but it depends on your height off the ground much more than any description of a type of shooting.
With the tilt set by estimate or by measuring of the distance to the desired plane of focus, which is often about the distance from the lens to the ground, you can preset the tilt, and just concentrate on a single point of focus adjustment, and perhaps check a second one, and then you can shoot very fast. To start with or to understand things, you can do trials by changing the tilt and evaluating, but once you believe in the physics and optics of the tilt table, you can concentrate on shooting, and enjoy the beautiful lens you have purchased, while avoiding most of the potential frustration.
Obviously for scenes that do not fit well in to the concept of a single tilted plane of focus, you will need to be guessing some, and things will not work out as well overall. But still, if you can visualize a plane of focus that it a best fit for the situation, and perhaps passes through the more important part of your scene, you will still likely be set well for tilt. And for these more complex scenes, stopping down more to get more depth of field is a good idea, as well as using the depth of field preview and checking that key things will come into focus for the shot. With the live view set to "gain up" dark scenes, you can still check focus on the viewing screen even while previewing at small apertures, which was something that could get very hard to do in the through the lens viewfinder.
Roland W wrote:
I find that setting my tilt angle based on an estimate of the distance of the camera from the desired tilted plane of focus save lots of time and frustration, and is plenty good for even shooting near to wide open with a 24mm or 17 mm tilt shift lens. The Luminous Landscape article covers the technique near the article's end, and the simple table needed for a given focal length of lens that they show is easy to have available. Note that the tilt angles are generally small for a lot of shooting with the wide angle TS-E's, but it depends on your height off the ground much more than any description of a type of shooting. ...Show more →
I've added a few more points for the 17mm TSE when close to the focal plane. This is distance between lens center and the focal plane (usually ground).
Mike K
