Gochugogi wrote:
I'm sure a 7D2 is waiting in the wings ...
I have no way of knowing, but it wouldn't surprise me if a 7D2 had less MP than the current version. The G10 has 15 MP whereas the G11 and 12 have 10 MP. The 1DX has 18 MP on a FF sensor which is less dense than the 1DIV's 16 MP 1.3 sensor. The higher MP successors to the 1Ds or 5D remain mythical. "Everyone" seems to rave about Nikon's 12 MP crop.
abqnmusa wrote:
The 18 MP sensor of the 7D does have advantages for bird [and critter] photography.
+1
Previously I forgot to mention the T3 body at 15 MP.
Jeff Nolten wrote:
A question specific to noise processing 7D RAWs, is there any difference in the raw converters used by Photoshop CSE, Elements, and Lightroom (assuming similar or current versions)? I use PSE with the latest raw converter but see many references to LR3's noise reduction. I do most of my noise reduction in the raw converter and do touch-up on selected areas in PSE. Looking at product reviews it looks like Lightroom glosses over raw conversion and then provides enhanced noise reduction tool in the main application - perhaps without the benefit of area selection capability. Can any of you experts comment? PSE has been adequate for my camera bodies up until now, will the 7D benefit from Lightroom? Thanks....Show more →
I've asked a similar question before, and no one answered me either. I can't even imagine why no one will answer this. I've seen many references to noise reduction in LR3, but I still don't know if they're talking about in Camera Raw, or in LR editing after the conversion. For what it's worth (which is something to me), I compared Camera Raw's noise reduction to Topaz DeNoise 5 with some images, and I got better results (to my eye) with Topaz DeNoise.
Jeff Nolten wrote:
For what it's worth (which is something to me), I compared Camera Raw's noise reduction to Topaz DeNoise 5 with some images, and I got better results (to my eye) with Topaz DeNoise.
Of course Topaz DeNoise 5 yields better results as you have control over details such as individual color channels and shadows, and can tweak detail, blur and black levels. Global noise adjustments usually work best for minor noise whereas a dedicated plugin lets you zero in on problems areas such as blue skies, low mids or color clumping. The global noise adjustment in Aperture 3, DDP 6x and ACR work great for minor cleaning. In fact I really can't get better results in DeNoise 5 until the image is moderately to severely noisy. You can partially duplicate the results of a dedicated plugin by globally adjusting a duplicate layer, erasing the non-problem area and blending with the background layer.
Gochugogi wrote:
...You can partially duplicate the results of a dedicated plugin by globally adjusting a duplicate layer, erasing the non-problem area and blending with the background layer.
That's what I'm currently doing. It works quite well considering how "cheap and dirty" it is.
Thanks Ernie, Gochogogi, and Brian. I've been considering buying one of those 3rd party noise applications. And I've also been experimenting with layers in PS for selective clean-up as Gochu suggests. The 7D is really the first body I've had that requires this extra work. In part this is because I use that body almost exclusively for wildlife work when I'm reach limited and I'm trying to get as much resolution as possible. But in that regard it does require more work than my 40D, its predecessor in my kit. You end up with more when you do the work, but more work just the same.
Tony, the OP, and Brian both said early on in this thread that they were new to the 7D and concerned about its noise. As am I and several others who said they'd tried and sold a 7D but might be willing to try again. So instead of just having this be another 7D noise thread with people saying either the camera is crap or the camera is great, I tried to steer it into providing a useful discussion on how to process 7D noise and which are the best apps for doing so. I provided a real world example for discussion. Few of my questions have been addressed or answered.
We've spent more bandwidth in this thread discussing whether Robert Lynn's demeanor is forum appropriate than discussing how to create the fantastic photos that ImageMaster and others have posted. This is not to dis Robert, he was one of the handful who described his workflow. I guess trying to learn through these forums is a lot like taking photographs with a 7D, there is a lot of noise and either you can tolerate the noise or you can't.
abqnmusa wrote:
Some of us just decided the 7D was not worth all the post processing required to reduce noise.
We chose other cameras that do not require all the post processing.
I am sure the 7D is fine for those who enjoy the post processing work.
I don't understand ... Do you guys not know how to use a computer?
All it takes is moving a slider left or right, if that is too much 'work' for you, then lord have mercy ...
Why do all the 7D cheerleaders get so hurt when someone points out how noisy the 7D is? It's no secret guys, the 7D has a noisy sensor. Does this surprise anyone with it's pixel density? Just accept it and tell it how it is: Yes you can achieve good output from the 7D with PP/NR but don't expect anything clean SOOC.
I was one of the first to get the 7D when it was released and was one of the first to post about it's noise here. The truth is the 7D is a has a noisy sensor and wasn't widely accepted back in the LR2 days (many dumped it).....however, once LR3 was released the 7D all of a sudden became noiseless right?? Wrong. The 7D buy itself is still noisy guys, no way around it. It requires PP/NR to clean it up as others have shown in their images here.
The amount of PP required is acceptable to some, and unacceptable to others. To each his own. To me, the 7D is almost the perfect all around camera except for the noise...I still own one and use it for certain situations....I've just learned to live with the extra PP/NR required as many others have here.
Ian.Dobinson wrote:
Pretty much . But if you use LR you can just set up a brush to sharpen and sharpen the bits you want.
yes, but when you use the sharpen brush where does it get it's settings? This is the silly thing with the brush, you just have a strength setting, but no idea what they are using for detail, radius etc. I thought it would use whatever settings you have employed in the details section. Set amount to zero, but choose a radius and detail and then the brush would use those at whatever strength you select. I've never come across any info of how the brush works for sharpening. What would also be useful is to have a NR brush.
I disagree about setting sharpening to zero ie having no capture sharpening. You can improve the image with capture sharpening, without adding to noise if you take some time to investigate the effects of the sliders. For the 7D I've found using
Amount: 40-55
radius: 0.6-0.8
detail: 10-15 up to ISO 800, 0-10 above that
mask: 25-35 upto ISO 800, 50-75 above that
works very well. The mask is the most important slider for making sure you don't enhance noise in textureless areas like sky. For other cameras like the 5D II I can use a bit less mask and a bit more detail.
Capture One seems to handle the 7D better than LR3 and I'm using that more and more now.
artsupreme wrote:
Why do all the 7D cheerleaders get so hurt when someone points out how noisy the 7D is? It's no secret guys, the 7D has a noisy sensor. Does this surprise anyone with it's pixel density? Just accept it and tell it how it is: Yes you can achieve good output from the 7D with PP/NR but don't expect anything clean SOOC.
I was one of the first to get the 7D when it was released and was one of the first to post about it's noise here. The truth is the 7D is a has a noisy sensor and wasn't widely accepted back in the LR2 days (many dumped it).....however, once LR3 was released the 7D all of a sudden became noiseless right?? Wrong. The 7D buy itself is still noisy guys, no way around it. It requires PP/NR to clean it up as others have shown in their images here.
The amount of PP required is acceptable to some, and unacceptable to others. To each his own. To me, the 7D is almost the perfect all around camera except for the noise...I still own one and use it for certain situations....I've just learned to live with the extra PP/NR required as many others have here.
You're just repeating what everyone else has said in this thread. Your post is nothing new really. No one is denying that the 7D isn't as clean as its Full Frame cousins.
We're just really surprised that some people consider moving a slider as 'too much work'.
Ernie Aubert wrote:
I've asked a similar question before, and no one answered me either. I can't even imagine why no one will answer this. I've seen many references to noise reduction in LR3, but I still don't know if they're talking about in Camera Raw, or in LR editing after the conversion. For what it's worth (which is something to me), I compared Camera Raw's noise reduction to Topaz DeNoise 5 with some images, and I got better results (to my eye) with Topaz DeNoise.
akin_t wrote:
You're just repeating what everyone else has said in this thread. Your post is nothing new really. No one is denying that the 7D isn't as clean as its Full Frame cousins.
We're just really surprised that some people consider moving a slider as 'too much work'.
Yes people continue to get defensive and refuse to accept the 7D is noisy....otherwise these threads would end after a few posts and there would be no arguing for 8 pages.
artsupreme wrote:
Yes people continue to get defensive and refuse to accept the 7D is noisy....otherwise these threads would end after a few posts and there would be no arguing for 8 pages.
I don't think there's anyone who said it doesn't have noise...I'd be interested to see a camera that DOESN'T have ANY noise at ANY ISO.
So basically, what we're supposed to say is...okay, someone who apparently can't be bothered to move a slider...the same slider that I move for my 1D3, my previous 1D2n, my 40D, 30D, 5D or any other camera, can say that ONE of those bodies is noisy, but not the other ones.
I'm sorry, but I ain't falling for it. THere's no special "trick" to unlocking the camera's quality. It's the same as any other camera. Good technique, minor/moderate depending on taste, for post processing yields great images.
It's the same as any other camera I've owned. Yep, it may have more noise because of the pixel density...but it's funny, the camera doesn't get compared to cameras in the same market...just higher end ones...that alone should say something.
RobertLynn wrote:
I don't think there's anyone who said it doesn't have noise...I'd be interested to see a camera that DOESN'T have ANY noise at ANY ISO.
So basically, what we're supposed to say is...okay, someone who apparently can't be bothered to move a slider...the same slider that I move for my 1D3, my previous 1D2n, my 40D, 30D, 5D or any other camera, can say that ONE of those bodies is noisy, but not the other ones.
I'm sorry, but I ain't falling for it. THere's no special "trick" to unlocking the camera's quality. It's the same as any other camera. Good technique, minor/moderate depending on taste, for post processing yields great images.
It's the same as any other camera I've owned. Yep, it may have more noise because of the pixel density...but it's funny, the camera doesn't get compared to cameras in the same market...just higher end ones...that alone should say something....Show more →
Also the fact we still have people looking at 100% views, which correspond to an enormous enlargement on the 7D, and then stick their nose 6" from the monitor and complain about some grain in the skies.
Pixel Perfect wrote:
I disagree about setting sharpening to zero ie having no capture sharpening. You can improve the image with capture sharpening, without adding to noise if you take some time to investigate the effects of the sliders. For the 7D I've found using
Amount: 40-55
radius: 0.6-0.8
detail: 10-15 up to ISO 800, 0-10 above that
mask: 25-35 upto ISO 800, 50-75 above that
works very well. The mask is the most important slider for making sure you don't enhance noise in textureless areas like sky. For other cameras like the 5D II I can use a bit less mask and a bit more detail. ...Show more →
Thanks Pixel, what are your settings for the NR sliders in ACR? I know these are starting points to be tailored to the image.
artsupreme wrote:
You admitted it there and that's all that really needs to be said about the 7D. Good man.
I never denied it.
The truth is, any sensor, when adding pixels to it, and increasing the density is more likely to show noise at the pixel level.
At the viewing/print level, it's a moot point, and as clearly evidenced by files from other's on this forum, not including my own, the camera does just fine and shouldn't have a vile reputation.
.
