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Archive 2011 · 7D noise issue
  
 
Gochugogi
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · 7D noise issue


Imagemaster wrote:
I have to chuckle when people complain about noise when they are not prepared to do a little PP to remove it, and when it is really only noticeable when viewed on a computer screen. I can have 16x20 prints made from these shots with "noticeable noise" and it virtually disappears from the prints. And never have I had someone say, "That print looks noisy.".

On some images, I have even had to apply a slight blur so the 16x20 print would look better.

A little more NR applied for those who thought 1 & 3 were too noisy:



Great photos! I agree, much of the noise apparent on screen seem to disappear or reduce when printed. However--save for OF like me--most modern humans never print and view everything on phone and computer screens. I'm running out of room for prints at home and office but I know serious photogs without a single print on their walls.

Also, those of us that shot film are probably more tolerant of noise in defocused backgrounds and skies. I prefer a wee bit of grainy texture in my images over perfectly smooth and noiseless.



Dec 11, 2011 at 06:20 PM
RobertLynn
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · 7D noise issue


BrianO wrote:
I found the following posts helpful:





I found the following posts not only not helpful, but condescending and inflammatory:


It's not limited to this thread. RobertLynn = [Hide Me]



I don't really care how you find my post, or myself. The 7D isn't the end all be all camera, but it does what it does, very, very well. If you take offense to a post, on a piece of equipment that I happen to have a wealth of experience with, that's fine. Don't try and turn this into something it's not though. You're trying to portray me as a "bad guy" that is above other people, and just looking to start trouble.

That's not what I'm doing, or who I am. There's far better and far worse photographers than myself who've gotten much better results than me (and it shows in this thread) with that camera. Many people have shown what it's capable of.

For a sensor that's horrible at any iso, people have been putting out excellent work, both in print and in web images. If that's "inflammatory" and "condescending" to you, I'd hate to see how you react when someone says something truly negative.

I've seen the idiocracy spewed forth about this camera, and it directly conflicts with personal, real life, professional use of the equipment. It directly conflicts with the images that photographers who've forgotten more than I know, have posted.

Perhaps you've got a bone to pick with me still over me thinking that adding another cybersync to a piece of velcro to a flash meter is dumping money into a problem that needs no solution. Perhaps you used a bad 7D and are upset that some people have a good one. I don't really know. Whatever your personal problems with me are, I can assure you that they are misplaced.

The people complaining about 7D noise issues, unless there's a mechanical fault with the camera, aren't going to be happy with much any camera. I'm not saying increased noise doesn't come in higher pixel density sensors, but realistically, these people aren't going to be happy with anything but 1DX/1DIV/D3s cameras. That's the reality of it, and truthfully, if they are using those cameras, more than likely, they aren't in the 7D market anyway.


Get over yourself and quit trying to turn something that isn't inflammatory, or isn't condescending into a war or a campaign against me.



Dec 11, 2011 at 07:04 PM
aznature
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · 7D noise issue


Fixing 7D noise in PP is no alternative to a low noise sensor
I wish the 7D had 12mp
When I view the images straight from the camera at 100% I regret buying the 7D
Then I clean the noise in PP and fall in love again with this body.
Bottom line:
Love - Hate relationship



Dec 11, 2011 at 08:07 PM
Jeff Nolten
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · 7D noise issue


Gochugogi wrote:
...most modern humans never print and view everything on phone and computer screens...


I rarely print. My method of looking at my photos is to use slide show and screen saver software on my computer or displayed on the TV for patient friends. I like the Ken Burns effect in iPhoto (when it works) which randomly zooms into an image and then slowly pans across it. This can have the same effect as pixel peeping at times. However, my image sets include scanned slides and negatives as well as digital images that aren't perfect captures but save some memory or scene I'm fond of. The digital images were captured by family on P&S and my images include several G series, 10D, 40D, and both 5Ds as well as the 7D. As Gochugogi says, even the P&S is an improvement over film. Among the XD and XXD images that I've taken there is more variation in my capture technique than there is among camera bodies.

Noise tolerance is personal taste and if the 7D doesn't cut if for you then get a 5D. If 5D frame rate and AF don't cut it for you then get a 1DIV or 1DX. If 5D crop factor doesn't cut it then buy a big white. Its only money and there are a lot of choices.

As the images above demonstrate, the 7D is capable of great photography and at refurbished prices is a lot of camera for the money. Like the G10, the 7D is a high density sensor and is noise prone at the pixel level. I shoot RAW and aggressively apply NR in the RAW converter and apply only light to moderate sharpening at .5 to 1 radius. Unlike most of my 5D images, I have to tailor the settings to each image after enlarging to %200. In Photoshop (Elements 9) I have to be careful with levels and highlight/shadow adjustment compared to the 5D. With landscapes, for example, I'll often bicubic downsample to 4620x2600 (16:9) or 4380x2740 (1.6) 12 MP images. With 5D2 sometimes I'll downsample and sometimes I'll crop to this level depending on how well things look at pixel level. Sometimes I can even crop a 7D image. At this point I'll inspect the sky regions and perhaps apply some selective NR to the sky areas. I do this with 5D images too. (The magic selector tool makes this pretty easy.) Finally, I'll see if I need to apply a little more sharpening (.3 radius, 150 level to start) perhaps with the previously selected sky region deselected (inverse select function).

I didn't mean to be quite this long winded but I thought I'd offer folks some things to try. I'm still learning how to get the most from the 7D. I'd appreciate other suggestions on how to process.

If this all sounds like too much trouble, then the camera's jpeg converter is pretty good. Maybe all the picture warrants is to be shot as a jpeg. With the G10, I'm pretty hard pressed to improve on the internal jpegs.


Edited on Dec 12, 2011 at 04:26 PM · View previous versions



Dec 11, 2011 at 08:30 PM
Imagemaster
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · 7D noise issue


aznature wrote:
Fixing 7D noise in PP is no alternative to a low noise sensor


Then pay more for a different camera.

When I view the images straight from the camera at 100%

Then don't view them at 100%.



Dec 11, 2011 at 08:32 PM
Ian.Dobinson
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · 7D noise issue


Imagemaster wrote:
Then pay more for a different camera.

Then don't view them at 100%.


+1

+1


The 100% button is probably the single worst thing ever thought up by a programmer.





Dec 11, 2011 at 08:40 PM
michael kilner
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · 7D noise issue


I have been following this post with interest as I am considering buying a 7D.I have seen images posted on the web taken with this camera at supposedly the same ISOs some good some awful.I have no doubt that if used competently this camera can produce great images.One thing that does seem apparent is that if used badly this camera punishes the user because of the resolving power of the sensor.I have spoken to some users who werent happy with their results but didnt realise that their techniques and PP werent doing them any favours,a small change in their workflow made all the diffence to their images.Finally if any one is in any doubt what the camera can do,stop the waffle and have a look at Imagemasters and Robert Lynns photostreams


Dec 11, 2011 at 09:07 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · 7D noise issue


michael kilner wrote:
I have been following this post with interest as I am considering buying a 7D.I have seen images posted on the web taken with this camera at supposedly the same ISOs some good some awful.I have no doubt that if used competently this camera can produce great images.One thing that does seem apparent is that if used badly this camera punishes the user because of the resolving power of the sensor.I have spoken to some users who werent happy with their results but didnt realise that their techniques and PP werent doing them any favours,a small change in their
...Show more

Even just using LR3 won't magically turn your 7D photos noise free. The settings used for sharpening and NR on the 7D are much different for say the 5D II and 1D III.

Unfortunately LR3 has IMO introduced a flaw if you use the 2010 process and don't examine the results closely. If the detail slider is set much more than about 20, then in smooth areas of low detail, LR3 will cause almost a crazing pattern. If you revert back to the older process it disappears. But 2010 process does a much better job at NR, the old process is rubbish. Now this crazing occurs at any ISO, not just high ISO. I now tend to keep the detail slider ot no more than 10-15. Just for comparison Capture One does not have this problem although it does not have a detail slider, just a radius and threshold. LR3 does better with NR however. Note LR3 does this for every camera but is much worse for 7D I find. I can use more detail on 5D II and 1D III

So for the 7D IMO, set detail slider to very low value, the exception being a shot which is full of detail, you can then use a bit higher amount, but don't go above about 30. Also use the mask slider too, don't leave it at zero and the higher the ISO the higher you should set mask, so you don't enhance grain in featureless areas like the sky for example. If you are careful you can get very good results even at high ISO. Save most sharpening for something more sophisticated in PS such as Focalblade.



Dec 11, 2011 at 09:44 PM
Jeff Nolten
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · 7D noise issue


A question specific to noise processing 7D RAWs, is there any difference in the raw converters used by Photoshop CSE, Elements, and Lightroom (assuming similar or current versions)? I use PSE with the latest raw converter but see many references to LR3's noise reduction. I do most of my noise reduction in the raw converter and do touch-up on selected areas in PSE. Looking at product reviews it looks like Lightroom glosses over raw conversion and then provides enhanced noise reduction tool in the main application - perhaps without the benefit of area selection capability. Can any of you experts comment? PSE has been adequate for my camera bodies up until now, will the 7D benefit from Lightroom? Thanks.


Dec 11, 2011 at 10:28 PM
Jeff Nolten
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · 7D noise issue


Your images are great Imagemaster! Could you share your general PP strategy similar to the way Robert Lynn did? Thanks.


Dec 11, 2011 at 10:31 PM
 

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Imagemaster
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · 7D noise issue


Jeff Nolten wrote:
Your images are great Imagemaster! Could you share your general PP strategy similar to the way Robert Lynn did? Thanks.


Thanks, Jeff.
I just adjust a few things in the RAW image in CS5. Then in the jpeg from the RAW, I sometimes apply NR (Neat Image) to the background only. Once downsized for the Web, I apply Smart Sharpen to the subject only.

Fast and easy, since I don't have time for anything more complex.

Tony



Dec 11, 2011 at 10:39 PM
snapsy
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · 7D noise issue


7D w/400mm f/5.6L @ ISO 800. Notice how little noise there is in the underexposed bokeh. Took this photo a while ago but don't recall doing any NR on it.

http://horshack.smugmug.com/Nature/Lake-Tahoe/squirrel2/1020055239_q5bzf-XL.jpg



Dec 11, 2011 at 11:12 PM
BluesWest
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · 7D noise issue


I've seen the idiocracy spewed forth about this camera

+1, Robert: I agree with your sentiments completely.

Not clear to me why the 7D has been the target of so much misguided criticism, particularly with regard to noise. I've been using one since it was released and the "noise problems" are easily dealt with in post-processing. Blue sky noise, in particular, is removed in a second (literally) by using a masked NR layer.

I do agree that the photos I've seen from the 1DIV (a $4,500 camera) have superior IQ compared to photos from the 7D (a $1,500 camera). But in my opinion the IQ of the 7D is at least 80% of the 1DIV, so at 1/3 the price the 7D is a bargain!

John



Dec 11, 2011 at 11:24 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · 7D noise issue


BluesWest wrote:
+1, Robert: I agree with your sentiments completely.

Not clear to me why the 7D has been the target of so much misguided criticism, particularly with regard to noise. I've been using one since it was released and the "noise problems" are easily dealt with in post-processing. Blue sky noise, in particular, is removed in a second (literally) by using a masked NR layer.

I do agree that the photos I've seen from the 1DIV (a $4,500 camera) have superior IQ compared to photos from the 7D (a $1,500 camera). But in my opinion the IQ of the 7D is at least
...Show more

Actually are you aware there were issues especially with early builds that did require repair. My own camera was adjusted by Canon for excess graininess at low ISO and this was their own assessment; I just asked to check it out. But I've been overall very happy with the 7D and find it does much better than my 40D at high ISO an PP'ed properly is very good at lower ISO.

But I agree blanket statements made about it are ridiculous given the proof presented in countless photos. Sensible exposure and PP will yield good results.



Dec 11, 2011 at 11:34 PM
BrianO
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · 7D noise issue


Pixel Perfect wrote:
I find with the 7D if I expose to the right I can get good results. ...The noise is easily cleaned up. I shoot most of my BIF at ISO 400 and have been happy with the results.


http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/ufiles/06/598406.jpg

I like all of your shots here, but this one is my favorite. Absolutely stunning.



Dec 11, 2011 at 11:55 PM
BrianO
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · 7D noise issue


snapsy wrote:
7D w/400mm f/5.6L @ ISO 800. Notice how little noise there is in the underexposed bokeh.


Jeff Nolten wrote:
Ok, I keep reading posts with images taken at ISO 800 or higher who claim there is no noise in their images. I don't believe it, I can find noise in 5D2 images at ISO 800.


Well, yes, there is some noise in high-ISO shots, and if you look for it you can find it even in shots at moderate ISOs. I think, though, that the noise levels people here have shown are perfectly acceptable for most uses.

I don't think your camera needs to be repaired; I think the bird looks fine, and the BG could be smoothed pretty easily in post, or left as is if you are time-constrained.



Dec 12, 2011 at 12:08 AM
Jeff Nolten
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · 7D noise issue


Thanks Brian. I don't find that level of noise objectionable for the conditions I shot in. And that was a fairly early image, #314, I'm still learning how to handle 7D images.


Dec 12, 2011 at 12:15 AM
BrianO
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · 7D noise issue


Jeff Nolten wrote:
...that was a fairly early image, #314, I'm still learning how to handle 7D images.


I'm waiting for good weather so I can start using mine more in the field. (I've only had it for a week.)

I need to study more on noise reduction, sharpening, etc., because I don't know how to choose things like radius, pixel limits, etc. for the best results. I'm using the trial-by-error method most of the time.



Dec 12, 2011 at 12:23 AM
abqnmusa
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · 7D noise issue


With a 7D much of your time is consumed running noise removal programs to try and save images.
I found grainy ISO 100 shots unacceptable
Just too many tiny noisy pixels crammed onto aps-c sensor



Dec 12, 2011 at 12:29 AM
Pixel Perfect
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · 7D noise issue


Jeff Nolten wrote:
Thanks Brian. I don't find that level of noise objectionable for the conditions I shot in. And that was a fairly early image, #314, I'm still learning how to handle 7D images.


Unfortunately for this shot, it had high contrast and the bright area on the left meant the bird is underexposed so as not to blow out this large white area. I believe in the absence of this area, the pigeon could have taken another +1EV and would have helped noise a great deal. Alternatively this is a great candidate for flash as you could then underexpose the background while getting good exposure on the bird.

Also I think some judicious PP would improve this greatly.

Of course you will see noise at ISO 800, but it won't be detail destroying and is easily managed if you have a good working exposure to start with.



Dec 12, 2011 at 12:31 AM
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