I need some advice. I'm not a pro, but hopefully one day.
So, here it is. The makeup artist that I work with referred a fashion designer (student) to me for a photoshoot for a line of clothing. Two outfits and a couple different shots of each. I had agreed to do so since I really didn't have anything to do this evening and thought it would be nice to network with some people, and secondly, I needed to update my portfolio. Before the shoot, we worked out the specifics (verbally). Basically, I would give her 10 images sized for the web with my info on the images. Shoot went well, and I showed them the pics along the way. Both the model and the student loved them. I told them I would do some light retouching and get them posted by tomorrow. Before we left I had the model sign the release and off they went.
Later this evening, the student calls me and asks if she could get the full size image without my info. I politely said no, not without paying for them. She said she did pay for them and I had to explain to her what she paid me for at the shoot. She asked how much and I threw out a rough estimate and she gasped for air. Then she asked if I would include her info on the images since the clothing was her design. How do I deal with this student? It's obvious she wasn't too well versed on these issues (it was her first time), and neither was I. Any help would be great,
Wait, this student paid for only web sized jpgs with your info all over them? I'm not sure what you want help with, if the student's request is acceptable to you then do it and if it isn't then don't.
its a student...just help him/her out. they obviously want it for THEIR portfolio...often times which are printed in the fashion industry... i dont see the point in making a profit from something like that.
So after sleeeping on it, my inclination is to offer her the full size images with the caveat that my info remain on all the images she uses. Money is tight for everyone, especially so during the holiday period. And since she did tell me that she would be interested in doing more shoots, the neworking and advertising value that I get with this is more than sufficient.
Lesson #1 is to get everything in writing before scheduling a project. It sounds like you have a signed Model Release and she is trying to get something for free. I shot a lot of models when I started out and I would stand by your quote for images. How much time and money do you have invested in shooting?
Lesson #2 is to never believe the "I have more work down the road, is this the best price that you can offer?".
I would not offer free prints or high resolution files and would leave your logo/info on the low resolution file. If they want them deleted then they need to pay for it. Believe me, if they nitpick you on those points they will not be back and they will say they you are difficult.
Wellllll, he is being as difficult as she is. Not everything needs to have a $ sign on it.
The more work in the future is iffy and the advertising value is minimal, the real value is in building up a relationship with her as it sounds like the both of you are just starting out. It is a good way to build up a portfolio. If you want to shoot fashion it is good to network with designers, models, MUA...after all you are not the only one bringing your skills to the table, all have worked hard in their own way. So if you all collaborate, you all walk away with something of value after you all contribute your skill set.
If OTOH you don;t have interest in what she does then charge her up the wazoo, make all kinds of restrictions on the use and she will move on and find another photographer will work towards similar goals...
Seriously if you wanted these for your portfolio and networking like you said you should have worked trade and not been an ass to a student by taking money off them for web sized pictures with your marketing all over them especially if this comes from a good contact you have. This doesn't sound like someone deliberately wanting something for free it sounds like crossed wires.
here would be my take: you own the copyright to the images BUT she owns the copyright to the designs. If she hasn't given you a release for those designs, you can't show images of them anywhere for commercial purposes. You only have a model release, if I read your initial posting right. The student has as much right to ask for her info to be included on the images as you do. Help each other out.
harvey steeves wrote:
here would be my take: you own the copyright to the images BUT she owns the copyright to the designs. If she hasn't given you a release for those designs, you can't show images of them anywhere for commercial purposes. You only have a model release, if I read your initial posting right. The student has as much right to ask for her info to be included on the images as you do. Help each other out.
I'm not sure that means anything, her copyright of the design is about reproducing the clothes not photos of the clothes. Once there are photos taken, the copyright of the photo is with the photographer. I don't know if there are other releases or trademarks involved in protecting the rights of the designer but that is going way off into left field for a shoot where there are two people who could be working together...
If you did a trade I can see wanting your credit on the images. If they paid ( does not matter how much) I would not have my credit on the images. Giving clean images that can actually be used may get you more business in the long run. I much prefer a facebook comment from a client to 500 of their friends about how great the image's look and how I gave more than expected vs how my ego is too big and I had to plaster my name on everything even after being paid for them.Forget copyright, ownership etc....no one cares because they are not in this business. Most feel pay for a photo and it should be ready to use as required.
Harvey--> I think you are incorrect there. After carefully researching copyright rules here in the US, I have to agree with Micky. There is no infringement on her clothing design.
Micky---> So trying to help her out I put up 21 images and priced them pretty low. Basically she pays about $26 for 21 images. In discussing this with my friends (photogs, models and MUAs) they laughed and asked why so cheap. I told them it was to help her out.
So she sends me an email:
The pics look great! I really thought everything was going to be half and half because we provided the model and the expensive garments that we designed and also sewn ourselves. This was my very first photoshoot that I've done and I fell like you took advantage of us for your self gain. Since you are charging me for the pictures I am going to have to charge you for using me and ***** garments that we create otherwise you will have to work a fair deal out with us or not use the pictures for your portfolio or personal gain. All the pictures on your website all has your copyright printed on the middle of the picture, normally its at the bottom. The Copyright is on the middle of the photo and also we will not be able to use them along with the pricing. Using the copyright is usuallu at the very bottom of the photo and not expose on the entire picture.
Wow. I'm not one to take threats or ultimatums lightly. I was really trying to keep this bridge open I don't thnk it's going to work. Basically, she gave me $20 for the shoot. That was the initial verbal deal. Before we left, I did mention that I would charge her a price for the photos as well. She was concerned because she said "The garments were expensive and really can't spend that much more". I told here it would be dirt cheap. I did tell her that I wasn't going to just give the photos away.
So I locked the gallery to adjust the prices. She is correct that I wasn't fair. So, I'm going to invoice her at my hourly rate which to me is fair. So what did I learn from this:
1. Get everything in writing before anything starts. NO assumptions.
jefferies1 wrote:
If you did a trade I can see wanting your credit on the images. If they paid ( does not matter how much) I would not have my credit on the images. Giving clean images that can actually be used may get you more business in the long run. I much prefer a facebook comment from a client to 500 of their friends about how great the image's look and how I gave more than expected vs how my ego is too big and I had to plaster my name on everything even after being paid for them.Forget copyright, ownership etc....no one cares because they are not in this business. Most feel pay for a photo and it should be ready to use as required....Show more →
I agree with you there. I did remove my copyright info from the image. If you read in my other post, she makes a mention about the copyright. When you go to the preview page, is saids that the copyright will not be printed.
Yet another ... after the fact contract dispute regarding deliverables.
Contract (verbal) dispute over $1.25 / image
Since she obviously feels you've dealt with her unfairly .... you could offer (in writing) to provide her restitution via a full refund of the $26, nullify the (disputed) verbal contract, take down the pics (no use for either party) and destroy the files (no future use) as a means of eradicating the dispute.
I say this not to suggest it is the best appoach to resolving this, but more as presenting an option to her that she might realize that there is a better option regarding how you two can / should work together to resolve this one, rather than her trying to force your hand (vice versa) ... basically the "alternate proposal" method.
If she were to go "all legal" on you, what could she "force you to do" without the benefit of a written contract ... small claims court for a refund, letter to your ISP requiring removal, cease & desist. She's got no teeth other than to restore things back to "zilch" ... hence the refund/nullify offer and skip the legal route ... if that's what she really wants.
Again, not the best option ... but sometimes offering up a lesser option can get someone to realize that they actually have a better option(s) than they were previously considering.
Destroying the files seems a bit extreme. Since this is pretty much a free shoot with both people contributing (photographers always thing they are the most important but without the dress model etc there is nothing to shoot) why all the drama?
Both of you think you are being taken advantage by the other, that's not supposed to happen until you start working for ad agencies.....
Not expecting that to be the actual outcome ... just a means of calling the bluff that she seems to be huffing & puffing, i.e. if you don't like the terms of my work ... I'll cheerfully refund your money ... it's always an option.
+1 @ drama/emotions are getting in the way of doing something that is a win-win. I hope these two get it figured out for eveyone's benefit.
She can't even rent an hours worth of studio time for $26 ... she should be incredibly grateful ... even if she does want to request some changes regarding the "crossed-wires" of the verbal agreement, do so with at least some magnitude of appreciation.
I'm curious though at such a paltry $26 ... why not just TFP ... or you bring the pizza & beer, I'll bring the camera & lights.
TFP used to be how it was done, but now with contracts and usage and copyrights and watermarks etc it seems like a lot more trouble. Mountain -> Molehill.
seasian wrote:
So after sleeeping on it, my inclination is to offer her the full size images with the caveat that my info remain on all the images she uses. Money is tight for everyone, especially so during the holiday period. And since she did tell me that she would be interested in doing more shoots, the neworking and advertising value that I get with this is more than sufficient.
Pictures with your watermark and info on the picture are useless for a model's or clothing designer's portfolio.
If you want her to use pictures with your watermark on them for facebook and general posting it is perfectly reasonable to specify that she use the versions with your watermark.
re: copyright
you need to consider that those clothing designs and the clothes are the property of the designer and would be treated as such in this case as they were not photographed in a public place like a runway or on the street. The copyright to the images would be the photographers unless transferred but in order to display them on a website with a commercial application or any other commercial usage, the photographer would need a property release - my take as a shooter of stock imagery for 15 years.
As a pro in the fashion world, your actions here are unprofessional and will lead to less business rather than more. I understand your initial commitment of photos with your logo on them as part of the shoot, however putting it in the middle of the photo destroys any value it has to the designer. If he knew ahead of time that this was how he would receive the files, I'm sure he never would have agreed on the shoot. Forcing him now to pay your hourly rates is equally unfair.
You are correct that offering a professional service means clearly explaining all details to the client before the shoot to maximize satisfaction and future referrals. You will find that work with emerging/student designers and models is poor business-they don't have any significant money. These are ideal times to build your reputation and resources for paid work in other situations.
Whatever happened to TFP when shooting with beginning models and designers?
Nowadays it seems that old-fashioned courtesy has gone out the window and everyone who can buy a camera only sees the dollarsigns of envisioned profit.
I have worked with agencies like Fashion and Elite in Milan, and Ford and Karin in Paris, and when shooting test shots of beginning models or using them for shoots for my portfolio (admittedly beginning models from those agencies are not to be compared with the 'normal' beginning model) never had to discuss copyright, modelreleases and the like.
Everybody understood all involved, be it model, photographer, make up artist, and the odd designer we sometimes borrowed clothes from, worked under the gentleman's agreement where everybody understood they were helping each other and come time and opportunity, would grant each other the credits (and very theoritically maybe money) they were due.
Same went with beginning designers of the Palimoda in Florence, and the Academie in Antwerp I worked with, you help each other, hope you will end up with some great pictures in each others portfolio, and future contacts, and hopefully exposure.
Of course I'm not promoting the kind of shoots where you are stealing the job from a working professional by undercutting the normal rates or even doing it for free just for the promise of 'possible future projects'.
But sometimes you really meet promising new talent who need a little push in the back and help to get along.
After all it's the same with photographers, who more then often enough expect models, make-up artist and designers to work for free or maybe a few prints when a photographer wants to take pictures for his portfolio.
