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Archive 2011 · What Workshop Are You Doing this Off Season?

  
 
Inku Yo
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · What Workshop Are You Doing this Off Season?


eSchwab wrote:
Has anyone here taken the foundation workshop?


I'll be going there next month.



Dec 12, 2011 at 10:48 AM
MarcAnthony
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · What Workshop Are You Doing this Off Season?


Inku Yo wrote:
I do however agree with you that there are a ton of workshops out there, some being taught by those that have no business teaching anybody anything... other than what not to do.


That's kinda my point too Inku. Anyone can hold a "workshop" and they may get a few to attend but how good is it and is it something that is worth spending money on. I totally get what people are saying and I know I come off as an a*shole sometimes BUT I just think that it shouldn't cost 1000's of dollars to get some great advice. There are tons of photographer resources at our disposal online for free that have rock solid advice. I just have an issue with paying someone all that money just to hear their thoughts when they could just give it for free on their website or a video on Youtube. We all make good money from our clients. I just think photographers who want to honestly help should do so without trying to make a few grand off of other photographers. Isn't that what humanity is all about? Helping each other without having to profit from it. We all have to make a living. That's why we shoot weddings. Teaching and helping each other should be totally different.



Dec 12, 2011 at 10:49 AM
ckhagen
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · What Workshop Are You Doing this Off Season?


Maybe photographers should just "help" clients and give away their photography for free. I mean, we're given this amazing talent and shouldn't we just share it with people? Why should people pay good money for it, when the photographers ought to give it away. These days, with so many people shooting part time, they're making plenty off their day jobs and the photography job is just extra spending cash anyways. Pfft.

I'm sorry, but I've got two kids to raise and put through college, house and car payments to make and oh... retirement. Hahaa! How many of us are actually making enough to save for a decent retirement? Probably not many. Not to mention healthcare. Call me greedy or selfish or whatever you want, but if someone likes my swagger that much and wants me to tell them everything I know (even if I contend it ain't much), I'm not going to be shy about getting paid for it. I owe that to my kids.



Dec 12, 2011 at 11:00 AM
cauffman
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · What Workshop Are You Doing this Off Season?


I completely agree that there is a surge in 'workshops' where most photographers are just trying to make money off other photographers.

But there are also decent workshops which are worth the money and I'm sure those instructors are not making all that much. I always view it like how clients always can't believe wedding photography costs so much... Take Genesis for example. Each instructor is spending countless hours creating and formalizing one to three different lectures and materials to cover for what people want to know more about before the workshop even takes place. That is time away from their families they are using to create this. Then there is the hotel stay, food, place you are holding the event, transportation fee's, etc for each instructor and the assistants to help make it all work. So aside from them spending their time away from their own business and family, they are spending thousands of dollars to pull it all together. To me, that is worth the money.

But like you said, there are other photographers out there who put on workshops locally just trying to make some money off it. But you can usually spot those folks and stay clear of them. Feedback about Genesis and other workshops on community forums such as this should be a good preview to what you can expect and if it is worth it to you.



Dec 12, 2011 at 11:00 AM
Inku Yo
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · What Workshop Are You Doing this Off Season?


MarcAnthony wrote:
That's kinda my point too Inku. Anyone can hold a "workshop" and they may get a few to attend but how good is it and is it something that is worth spending money on. I totally get what people are saying and I know I come off as an a*shole sometimes BUT I just think that it shouldn't cost 1000's of dollars to get some great advice. There are tons of photographer resources at our disposal online for free that have rock solid advice. I just have an issue with paying someone all that money just to hear their thoughts
...Show more

Well, keep in mind a few things - information is valuable and time is money. The information that I've gained/harvested/learned is valuable, not only to me, but potentially to others out there that don't want to spend the time looking everything up themselves. Also, my time is worth something. I'm all for helping people out, but when people start asking me the same things over and over and start taking up a lot of my valuable time, I'm going to start charging people what I think is fair. It hasn't come to that point yet, so don't bash me, Marc. Hahah.

Point is that just like your photography skills, which are in demand by your clients, some people's business/marketing/photography skills are also in demand by other photographers. The way I look at it, it's the same thing.

Why do multi-million dollar corporations hire business consultants. Why do companies like Booze Allen and McKinsey exist when companies can just figure this stuff out on their own? Because knowledge has value and so does the time to attain/distribute it.



Dec 12, 2011 at 11:02 AM
ckhagen
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · What Workshop Are You Doing this Off Season?


Oh and can you imagine how things might be different if Steve Jobs had just gotten online and given away all his "thoughts" to every Tom, Dick, and Harry on the internet? There would be a lot less people working relatively secure jobs at Apple right now.


Dec 12, 2011 at 11:02 AM
lisy78
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · What Workshop Are You Doing this Off Season?


Ok, I can buy your "some/many/most workshops suck" but the stuff about "isn't that what humanity is all about? Helping each other without having to profit from it" makes me want to go buy you a copy of Atlas Shrugged. And i'm not even an Ayn Rand fan... but when the pendulum is swinging way far one way... you need to push it hard the other way... even though you just want it to go back to the middle :P

Frankly if we're in a world where information should be shared freely then doctors should be the ones providing the information for free as health is certainly more of a basic human need than Off Camera Lighting




Dec 12, 2011 at 11:03 AM
sboerup
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · What Workshop Are You Doing this Off Season?


The only workshop I ever attended was about business & sales. It forced me to look at other viewpoints. Was I already successful before that? Yes. Did the workshop totally teach my something about how others operate their business? YES. In fact it allowed me to double my average sales due to information that I learned from that workshop. Was it stuff I could have learned for free online? No. I'm an internet fiend. I can find what I need online, but there is a vast amount of knowledge that simply cannot be conveyed online.

The thing that I have found about classes (university, seminars, workshops, etc) is that it is a completely different type of learning than sitting on your computer guiding yourself. Inside a class (especially 3 days) that you have invested and sacrificed to be there for, you are removing all distractions to absorb knowledge and be taught. If you think you know everything, you won't learn anything...and if you think you know everything, then that is sad indeed because you couldn't be more wrong. Everyone can learn...find what methods of instruction help you best, what you want to learn, and go and do it. You will a lifetime of benefits from education.



Dec 12, 2011 at 11:39 AM
cas5
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · What Workshop Are You Doing this Off Season?


>> "I just think photographers who want to honestly help should do so without trying to make a few grand off of other photographers"

Honestly helping is expensive. Why would anyone do spend three days trying to communicate their hard earned knowledge with out any compensation? I don't know anyone who's that altruistic. There are some realities to the wedding photography market:

1. Your maximum income is capped and the cap is comparitively low
2. There are only a handful of efficiencies that you can incorporate into your business
3. The size of the nest egg required to retire comfortably is increasing daily
4. To get ahead of the retirement nest egg curve you have to expand your business
5. Offering workshops is one of the obvious ways to expand

$2,000 workshops get you to retirement much quicker ;-)



Dec 12, 2011 at 11:48 AM
dpun
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · What Workshop Are You Doing this Off Season?


RichardLavigne wrote:
I'll keep that in mind although the seminars supplies catered food that is supposed to be off the hook.


Yea, it's always about the food! Gotta have the good stuff!



Dec 12, 2011 at 12:00 PM
hardlyboring
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · What Workshop Are You Doing this Off Season?


canerino wrote:
Marc,

Have you ever had a conversation with someone who makes you look at things differently? (I really hope the answer is yes)

Thats my view on workshops. I think the good ones offer intense/condensed/concentrated 'conversations with people who make you look at things differently'. There is no way in hell that you can get all of those minds (genesis, for example) together in one room for such a brief period of time...for free.

Chuck

I will offer up this nugget.
I DID stand in a room with Spencer and Evan and a number of other well respected FM'ers both past and present AT THE SAME TIME. We spend 5-10 min talking with each one and I learned more in that short time than I have ever learned anywhere else PERIOD. What I took from those few conversations got my business off the ground and MADE ME MONEY. The truth is that no one told me anything really that earth shattering I just needed to tweak a few things and get some other things in place. I still have some of those some things implemented today and they are still making me money. Does not really matter what they are because it will be different for everyone...but that night changed my life and my business.
If someone thinks they honestly will not learn anything by listening to others you are sadly mistaken.



Dec 12, 2011 at 12:07 PM
cbres00
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · What Workshop Are You Doing this Off Season?


G3


Dec 12, 2011 at 12:33 PM
Tony Hoffer
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · What Workshop Are You Doing this Off Season?


hardlyboring wrote:
I will offer up this nugget.
I DID stand in a room with Spencer and Evan and a number of other well respected FM'ers both past and present AT THE SAME TIME. We spend 5-10 min talking with each one and I learned more in that short time than I have ever learned anywhere else PERIOD. What I took from those few conversations got my business off the ground and MADE ME MONEY. The truth is that no one told me anything really that earth shattering I just needed to tweak a few things and get some other things in
...Show more

A big +1 to this. The first time I was in a room with like-minded non-competitors it was mind-blowing to me.

I'd imagine that this is actually similar to what Marc is saying... and I certainly can't disagree to a certain point. Doing these kinds of things can be fantastic, and doing them for free would be great. I'm all for that. That's how most ideas for workshops start.

The problem usually comes in when you try to organize it and then web chats with more than a few people cost money. Then using a sign-up/registration form costs money. Then everyone wants to meet in person and you don't want someone that you haven't met in your house and have to rent a venue that costs money. After a while you've put a ton of time and some money planning get togethers and decide to charge a nominal fee to offset it. Then you have so many people that want to come that you decide you either need to make it bigger (more cost) or charge more. Then you've just created a workshop. Believe it or not, most people that hold workshops aren't evil. They're just filling a demand and trying to earn some money with the skills they have. If anyone just shows up and puts on a workshop with no thought, they're a scam artist. But lots of people that do them put a ton of work into them and most that I know make FAR less doing workshops than they do shooting. They do them for the companionship and learning just like those that go.

--

For what it's worth, I would LOVE to attend FW and Sexy Business some day. I've heard nothing but fantastic things about both. If I could learn just 1 thing that earns me an extra $100/wedding, any workshop would pay for itself easily. Add that to the relationships and I think both of those would be great options.

As many mentioned, FW is more photojournalism based. They give assignments, have mentors, ect... It seems like a very cool and intensive way of learning. I haven't been but I know a lot of excellent top-of-their-field level pros who have.

Sexy Business was described to me as the best money someone had ever spent on their business. I don't doubt it. Branding is something that I think is critically important that most lack. I'd bet that most Sexy Business grads would have paid double or triple if they had known what they'd learn there.

--'

With all that said, I've never been to a workshop myself other than WPPI. I'm a skeptical person about these things. I'm also often too proud to humble myself enough to learn. But as someone who's on the other side and has seen people totally transform their businesses, I think that for the right person they can be fantastic.




Dec 12, 2011 at 12:38 PM
mserrano
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · What Workshop Are You Doing this Off Season?


I think your best measure is time against ROI.

If you think that you can save $2k by spending 2-3 years figuring out stuff against being able to recoup the investment in few weddings then it is not worth it.

Time is money.

I can tell you that for me G1 and SexyBusiness saved me at least 3 years of University of Hard Knocks tuition fees.
Plus I have two kids.... time is precious.

M



Dec 12, 2011 at 01:48 PM
unblinkable
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · What Workshop Are You Doing this Off Season?


ckhagen wrote:
Maybe photographers should just "help" clients and give away their photography for free. I mean, we're given this amazing talent and shouldn't we just share it with people? Why should people pay good money for it, when the photographers ought to give it away. These days, with so many people shooting part time, they're making plenty off their day jobs and the photography job is just extra spending cash anyways. Pfft.


Well, played.


I think the beauty of workshops is that you can choose to attend or not... whatever you feel suits your need. There will be bad apples in every industry. The hope is that you can do your research and read reviews to see if the ones who invested in the past felt it was worth their time and money. If not? Avoid it like the plague. If so, mull it over, look at the topics being covered and see if it might be the sort of information that could help YOU out. It's a very personal thing, really.

I think the heart of this initial post was just to see what was out there and who was going. Personal opinions on the benefits of every choosing to attend one weren't asked for. We all know everyone has a different take on these things... and maybe a post about how ridiculous workshops are could be made as a separate deal. That way, those who truly want some information don't have to wade through the rest just to see what's being offered and attended.



Dec 12, 2011 at 01:54 PM
Ghost
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · What Workshop Are You Doing this Off Season?


We'd like to go to Genesis in LV next March. It coincides with our 10th Anniversary! Would be a nice getaway that we can expense it out too.

We will even pimp ourselves up to be "models".



Dec 12, 2011 at 01:59 PM
mineymole
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · What Workshop Are You Doing this Off Season?


Tony & Spencer -

Both of you are teaching at G3 right? Yet both of you confess to not having really been on the other side as a student at a photography workshop.

While there is nothing at all wrong with that, it is a tad ironic, no?

What inspired you both to participate in Genesis? Since neither of you claim to have been inspired yourselves in workshops I wonder what the motivating moment was?

I am curious, because I am sincerely looking at G3. If I have any hangup about signing up for G3, it is probably the lack of years most of the instructors have had in the business. However, I also know that those misgivings are probably meaningless especially giving the rave reviews the workshops have received.




Dec 12, 2011 at 02:14 PM
Tony Hoffer
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · What Workshop Are You Doing this Off Season?


mineymole wrote:
Tony & Spencer -

Both of you are teaching at G3 right? Yet both of you confess to not having really been on the other side as a student at a photography workshop.

While there is nothing at all wrong with that, it is a tad ironic, no?

What inspired you both to participate in Genesis? Since neither of you claim to have been inspired yourselves in workshops I wonder what the motivating moment was?

I am curious, because I am sincerely looking at G3. If I have any hangup about signing up for G3, it is probably the lack
...Show more

I'll message you privately as to keep this thread from getting locked



Dec 12, 2011 at 02:26 PM
mineymole
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · What Workshop Are You Doing this Off Season?


Cool Tony. Thanks!


Dec 12, 2011 at 02:36 PM
Jon-Mark
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p.4 #20 · p.4 #20 · What Workshop Are You Doing this Off Season?


+1 to unblinkable


Dec 12, 2011 at 05:00 PM
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