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Archive 2011 · One month shooting with the System 1

  
 
hans98ko
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p.2 #1 · One month shooting with the System 1


@M635_Guy
Base on what was posted here what do you think most people will percieve this tread was trying to do?
Here you are talking about a camera that has some improvements like most new cameras do, but not really leaps and bounds from anything that are already available.
The next thing is that it is not really selling well or flying off the shelves like the MFTs when it was first released.
Finally, it keep popping up at the top of the forum even though very few people replied to it that gave me the impression of what was going on.

Like on my reply I did not totally disagrees with what the OP was saying like wishing for a larger sensor size or about the lens distortion. But that is how I felt and the OP has already stated very clearly that I don't have to belief what he wrote.

There is no way we can agree with everyone with everything, even father & son, mother & daughters or twins.
By not agreeing with one does not meant that we are against them, unless you are like George W Bush saying "You are either with me or against me". If he ever ask the same question again, lots of Americans will tell him in the face that they are against him lying to the world about Irag's WMD or bringing the US economy to its knees by going to war.



Nov 27, 2011 at 08:10 AM
patriot
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p.2 #2 · One month shooting with the System 1


hans98ko wrote:
@M635_Guy
Base on what was posted here what do you think most people will percieve this tread was trying to do?
Here you are talking about a camera that has some improvements like most new cameras do, but not really leaps and bounds from anything that are already available.
The next thing is that it is not really selling well or flying off the shelves like the MFTs when it was first released.
Finally, it keep popping up at the top of the forum even though very few people replied to it that gave me the impression of what was going on.

Like on my
...Show more

I see you are in China ... I for one appreciate and thank you for your comments and opinion regarding the 1, but respectfully suggest you share your political opinions in more appropriate places.



Nov 27, 2011 at 09:03 AM
patriot
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p.2 #3 · One month shooting with the System 1


AndreasE wrote:
There is an interesting thread over there at dpreview.com:

photozone.de published their first 2 CX lens reviews and a discussion started - pretty similar to the questions you raise above.

On the topic of distortion, Markus of photozone.de pointed out that Nikon choose to fix lens distortion optically and not per software.

People pointed out that distortion is quite high at m4/3 lenses, with the exception been the Zuiko 50mm f2.0 macro. Basically all micro 4/3 reviews at dpreview and test images posted are done with the Zuiko 50mm macro.

OleThorsen summmarized the dpreview reviews:
Olympus PEN E-P3 - Olympus Zuiko Digital ED


Lesson learned: Comparing cameras on dpreview between the 2 systems, you compare also the impact of a macro with a kit zoom lens. (Nothing bad in itself. Only to be aware of)

Second point:
The m4/3 manufacturers in their attempt to balance lens size and weight with the need to cover a comparatively larger sensor choose for the non Zuiko 50mm f2.0 macro lens the development direction to fix lens distortion per software (which reduces resolution and increases noise in the affected areas)

Again OleThorsen:
Here is a short list of some of the mft lenses with distortion data from Photozone.
Panasonic Lumix G 14mm f/2.5 barrel 5% (0.85)
Panasonic Lumix G 20mm f/1.7 barrel 3.3% (0.14)
Panasonic Lumix G 7-14mm f/4 barrel 7mm 5.2% (1.1)
Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-42 mm f/3,5-5,6 barrel 5.0% (0.7)
Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-45mm f/3.5-5.6 barrel 14/18/25mm 5.5/4.1/2.2% (1.3/?)
Panasonic Lumix G Vario HD 14-140mm f/4-5.8 ASPH barrel 14mm 6.2% (1.8)
Olympus M.Zuiko 12mm f/2 ED barrel 5.4% (0.7)
Olympus M.Zuiko 17mm f/2.8 barrel 4.5% (0.8)
Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 9-18mm f/4-5.6 ED barrel 9mm 4.8% (1.8)
Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 14-42mm f/3.5-5.6 ED barrel 14mm 4,6% (1.7)
Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 14-150mm f/4-5.6 ED barrel 14mm 5,7% (1.3)

As a comparison Nikon 1 lenses is tested without correction
Nikkor 10mm f/2.8 barrel 1,8%
Nikkor VR 10-30mm f/3.5-5.6 barrel 10/14/18/24/30 2,5/1,2/0,4/0,05/0,03%


Lesson learned: it takes considerable software correction with m4/3 cameras to allow to fit the design criteria to develop reasonable small lenses and at the same time cover a larger sensor size with a small flange distance.

If you only shoot with the Zuiko 50mm f2.0, then dpreview review images are a good base for your assessment. If you consider to use other lenses, don't forget the impact of this on corner and edge sharpness and noise.

This might one of the reasons, why Nikon choose the route towards a smaller sensor size to fix more things optically and less with software. (CA, vignetting being the other ones)

regards,
Andy
...Show more

Andy, Thank you for your very thorough and helpful response! What's really got me looking again for the "holy grail" on small cameras is some potential upcoming business trips to Asia. The J1 looks like something I could carry in a coat pocket, while at the same time, hopefully not make me sorry I left by D700 and glass back in the States. I have a few months before I go, so I'll keep reading and watching to see what new toys pop up before I need to pull the trigger.


Nov 27, 2011 at 09:09 AM
hans98ko
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p.2 #4 · One month shooting with the System 1


patriot wrote:
I see you are in China ... I for one appreciate and thank you for your comments and opinion regarding the 1, but respectfully suggest you share your political opinions in more appropriate places.


No way Jose! Singapore is not China, we are an indepedent State that many Americans and Europeans have migrated to and even converted to Singaporeans. Today I was with one huge group of Americans and another huge group of British participating in our annual dragon boat race.

But you are very right about not posting political opinions here.



Nov 27, 2011 at 09:37 AM
AndreasE
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p.2 #5 · One month shooting with the System 1


patriot wrote:
Andy, Thank you for your very thorough and helpful response! What's really got me looking again for the "holy grail" on small cameras is some potential upcoming business trips to Asia. The J1 looks like something I could carry in a coat pocket, while at the same time, hopefully not make me sorry I left by D700 and glass back in the States. I have a few months before I go, so I'll keep reading and watching to see what new toys pop up before I need to pull the trigger.


You are welcome.

It is this hard question. What should I take as carry on for a trip? I truly enjoyed the last few weeks with the System 1, but at the same time haven't given up using my familiar DSLRs which produce unquestionable better photos. As allways, your choice depends on your priorities.

Let me share an example from yesterday evening. Friends invited us for dinner and my daughter and her friend "fooled" around and enjoyed their time. At one point, my 17 year old took the J1 and the kit lens to shoot some photos of her 16 year old friend.

This one was taken with the J1 and the kit lens, supported by the built-in flash.
Due to the low ambient light the camera was set to Hi-1 (ca. ISO 6400) - tribute to the slow kit lenses. Needed for the background in the room, but not shown in this image. I am really waiting for some fast lenses on this cam system.

So here we go. J1, ISO 6400, 1/60, built-in flash, out-of-camera, only resized, no postprocessing
http://www.pbase.com/andrease/image/139926643/original.jpg

A bit later, she swapped the J1 to a DSLR she is quite familiar with - the D3s.
Same table, same light. D3s, 85mm/1.4, ISO 1600, 1/100sec, f2.2. No postprocessing, only resized
http://www.pbase.com/andrease/image/139926627/original.jpg

A second example from the same series
http://www.pbase.com/andrease/image/139927206/original.jpg

If you ask me, I still like the images from the DSLRs better (way better). If there wouldn't be the size and weight incurred.

On the other side. The J1 provides more than decent snapshots in a very small package which very often works out of the box quite well.
J1, kit lens, flash, ISO 800, no postrocessing, only resized

1920x1200
http://www.pbase.com/andrease/image/139927263/original.jpg

Don't know for you, but it fits my requirements in many cases. Not all, but quite often.

As said at the beginning, it depends on your priorities. If you want to make some "statement" photos (for yourself or your family or others), you might be better off with the D700 (and appropriate lenses). If your primary objectice is something else, the System 1 might be less obstrusive and still be able for some great shots (at lower but sufficient overall IQ).

If I remember correctly, most people did argue in the past, that the technical component doesn't make a good picture, the photographer does. Pick and choose gear as appropriate, don't overengineer a solution and keep on enjoying photography,
Andy







Nov 27, 2011 at 09:52 AM
patriot
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p.2 #6 · One month shooting with the System 1


hans98ko wrote:
No way Jose! Singapore is not China, we are an indepedent State that many Americans and Europeans have migrated to and even converted to Singaporeans. Today I was with one huge group of Americans and another huge group of British participating in our annual dragon boat race.

But you are very right about not posting political opinions here.


Sorry for my ignorant comment on Singapore and China. All I can say in defense is I was thinking "Hong Kong" at that moment, and experienced a (hopefully!) momentary lapse in my thought process, with my eyes reading "Singapore" and my mind transposing that with "Hong Kong".

My interest in the 1 started with considering some personal time to "see the sights" in conjunction with several business trip the Hong Kong area planned for 2012.



Nov 27, 2011 at 10:14 AM
patriot
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p.2 #7 · One month shooting with the System 1


AndreasE wrote:
You are welcome.

It is this hard question. What should I take as carry on for a trip? I truly enjoyed the last few weeks with the System 1, but at the same time haven't given up using my familiar DSLRs which produce unquestionable better photos. As allways, your choice depends on your priorities.

Let me share an example from yesterday evening. Friends invited us for dinner and my daughter and her friend "fooled" around and enjoyed their time. At one point, my 17 year old took the J1 and the kit lens to shoot some photos of her 16 year old
...Show more


I agree, and think the same, which is why my D700 seems to be always hanging off my shoulder, and what ever P&S I have at the time seems to stay at home or in the bag at the hotel. My daughter (also 17 years old), has a D5100, which I could borrow (with a bribe perhaps required), and pick up a Sigma or Tamron 17-50 f2.8 lens for about the same price as a J1. In between size-wise, but better all around.



Nov 27, 2011 at 10:29 AM
RoySussex
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p.2 #8 · One month shooting with the System 1


patriot wrote:
.....................................................

So, a "Patriot" who thinks Singapore is in China. No prizes for guessing "Patriot"'s nationality then.
Roy



Nov 27, 2011 at 01:50 PM
patriot
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p.2 #9 · One month shooting with the System 1


RoySussex wrote:
patriot wrote:
.....................................................

Well, I had no idea "senior moments" were exclusive to certain nationalities ... who knew! As for "Patriot" giving away one's nationality, you of course knew that is a reference to the New England Patriots, a football team ... an American football team, who by the way just finished a nice win over the Eagles (no need to tell YOU what city that is).



Nov 28, 2011 at 06:29 AM
poisonpill
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p.2 #10 · One month shooting with the System 1


patriot wrote:
Sorry for my ignorant comment on Singapore and China. All I can say in defense is I was thinking "Hong Kong" at that moment, and experienced a (hopefully!) momentary lapse in my thought process, with my eyes reading "Singapore" and my mind transposing that with "Hong Kong".

My interest in the 1 started with considering some personal time to "see the sights" in conjunction with several business trip the Hong Kong area planned for 2012.


BTW: Hong Kong is barely China. It's a SAR which operates fairly independently.



Nov 28, 2011 at 09:59 AM
Rodolfo Paiz
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p.2 #11 · One month shooting with the System 1


Ask the Chinese, and you'll get a wholly different answer. Hong Kong is fully and completely within the political confines of the nation of the People's Republic of China. No ifs, ands, or buts. They are allowed to operate fairly independently, in the same way as other provinces enjoy some special economic freedoms. But do not confuse that with independence... a long leash is still a leash, and of iron made.



Nov 28, 2011 at 10:09 AM
Rodolfo Paiz
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p.2 #12 · One month shooting with the System 1


RoySussex wrote:
So, a "Patriot" who thinks Singapore is in China. No prizes for guessing "Patriot"'s nationality then.
Roy


Read the whole thread before commenting, and leave the contemptuous, simplistic, know-it-all attitude at home; or in the future you may find yourself giving off an even worse impression -- if at all possible -- than you did here.



Nov 28, 2011 at 10:12 AM
poisonpill
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p.2 #13 · One month shooting with the System 1


Rodolfo Paiz wrote:
Ask the Chinese, and you'll get a wholly different answer. Hong Kong is fully and completely within the political confines of the nation of the People's Republic of China. No ifs, ands, or buts. They are allowed to operate fairly independently, in the same way as other provinces enjoy some special economic freedoms. But do not confuse that with independence... a long leash is still a leash, and of iron made.


I am Chinese from HK, so take my POV however you want.



Nov 28, 2011 at 10:15 AM
Rodolfo Paiz
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p.2 #14 · One month shooting with the System 1


Perhaps I should have more clearly phrased that as "ask the Chinese government". And your POV is, of course, as valid as mine or anyone else's.


Nov 28, 2011 at 11:20 AM
poisonpill
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p.2 #15 · One month shooting with the System 1


Rodolfo Paiz wrote:
Perhaps I should have more clearly phrased that as "ask the Chinese government". And your POV is, of course, as valid as mine or anyone else's.



That's tricky too, as they will tell you HK is much more independent than it actually is. (in an attempt to persuade Taiwan to become an SAR too)

I mean it's an interesting topic for me, as I'm from the area, but I'll stop here before the growing number of forum nannies tell me this is a gear forum.



Nov 28, 2011 at 11:26 AM
Rodolfo Paiz
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p.2 #16 · One month shooting with the System 1


Agreed on both points.


Nov 28, 2011 at 02:01 PM
AndreasE
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p.2 #17 · One month shooting with the System 1


May I ask you to continue the regional/political discussion somewhere else.

Thanks,
Andy



Nov 28, 2011 at 02:24 PM
jhinkey
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p.2 #18 · One month shooting with the System 1


Though I wish there was a dedicated forum for non-DSLR Nikon topics, I'd still like to hear more about the Nikon 1 from Andreas or others, so hopefully this discussion can get back on track.

John



Nov 28, 2011 at 02:40 PM
M635_Guy
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p.2 #19 · One month shooting with the System 1


I'm going to get it all out, and then I'll stop entirely on any non-System 1 comments.

@ Hans - you were coyly and insultingly implying Andy is some sort of secret plant. If you've been around a while, you'd know he's just a terrific resource for the community. It wouldn't take long long to figure that out. Be a little more circumspect and respectful.

jhinkey wrote:
Though I wish there was a dedicated forum for non-DSLR Nikon topics, I'd still like to hear more about the Nikon 1 from Andreas or others, so hopefully this discussion can get back on track.

John


John - "Dedicated to Nikon-mount shooters" remember? These are closer to DSLR'S than any P&S, so let's leave the little dig about your own personal hobby-horse out, shall we?

_--------
I've actually got some on topic questions, but dinner calls...




Nov 28, 2011 at 06:50 PM
MagicNikon
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p.2 #20 · One month shooting with the System 1


This system is a little late to the dance for me. Had I waited and not bought into the micro 4/3 system I still couldn't consider this system as it is now. Until they have something similar to the Panny 20mm 1.7 or Oly 45mm 1.8 I won't be able to even give it a look. I am very impressed with what it is capable of doing, but I wish it had shipped with some faster primes.


Nov 28, 2011 at 07:40 PM
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