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Archive 2011 · Depth of field revelation.

  
 
wayne seltzer
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p.2 #1 · Depth of field revelation.


Yes, I was the one who first noticed the difference in DOF between my ZE 50 MP and my Contax N 50 which is similar to ZE 50/1.4 and I mentioned this to Samuli back in the early part of the Zeiss thread. It was easy for me to see when I was composing and shooting a shot by a stream where I was trying to get a rock in the near foreground Sharp and still have detail in the far background trees. Lens design plays a big part in how quickly it transitions to OOF. The amount of difference in DOF depends also on distance from camera to focus point.
I posted a series awhile back trying to show this difference in DOF.



Nov 25, 2011 at 09:55 AM
timballic
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p.2 #2 · Depth of field revelation.


Wayne, any link to that series?


Nov 25, 2011 at 10:05 AM
Sami Ruusunen
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p.2 #3 · Depth of field revelation.


carstenw wrote:
Sami, I am not sure if you are referring to me.

In any case, you are wrong in your first post. Every lens design will have a different degree of blur at the same aperture. Some lenses have a lot of depth of field, others much less. The lens design is everything. The DoF calculators are only indications of how much DoF you might get, not accurate calculations. They are based on averages, or the thin lens simplification.

Many lenses appear to be very similar, simply because most lenses are based on the same designs. The double-Gauss design for example. Only those
...Show more

Only reasons I can figure which affect the different dof from same focal lenghts are:
a) lens has that extension tube effect when focusing close (f-value gets smaller)
b) lens focal length changes when focusing different distances (like nikon 70-200 which is about 140mm lens when focused to mdf @200mm, thats why nikon 70-200 gives much larger dof @mfd than forexample canon 70-200
c) CA, well lenses with lots of whatever aberrations tend to give different sharp-unsharp transition than the lenses without any, many lenses give 0 dof at large apertures (at larger prints), if you think the "acceptable area of sharpness" is unacceptable

Someone with more experience with optical studies might give some more reasons if there are any.

I'm interested the "larger front pupil gives different dof" statement, does that mean that medium format 100/4 lens gives different dof than 100/4 35mm lens when both used on same 35mm camera?



Nov 25, 2011 at 10:11 AM
GCasey
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p.2 #4 · Depth of field revelation.


this discussion is very interesting and helpful. I'm not as technically proficient as you fellows are, but I could not help noticing the number of countries represented in this discussion:

Australia, Finland, Germany, United States, United Kingdom, Thailand, Sweden, and Canada.

The discussion has stayed on topic, and everyone has been very helpful. That's quite a contrast to other discussions on the forum.you are setting some great examples for the rest of us!

George



Nov 25, 2011 at 10:43 AM
wickerprints
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p.2 #5 · Depth of field revelation.


Sami Ruusunen wrote:
I'm interested the "larger front pupil gives different dof" statement, does that mean that medium format 100/4 lens gives different dof than 100/4 35mm lens when both used on same 35mm camera?


Indeed, the assertion is not correct.

From the point of view of the image plane, a lens of a given f-number (ignoring transmission and aberrations) projects the same light. A microscopic creature living on the surface of the sensor can only see the exit pupil; moreover, it can't even tell how far the exit pupil appears. It could be 10mm in diameter and 50mm away, or it could be 20mm in diameter and 100mm away from the image plane--that is to say, a point on the image plane cannot tell you the focal length. To the creature, both scenarios look the same; the light strikes the sensor at the same angles, with the same collective intensity.

Consequently, there is no way for the creature to infer the diameter of the entrance pupil, since it doesn't even know the focal length.

That said, however, different lenses may produce different DOF and/or extents of OOF blur, due to the various reasons you cited. The single most common reason why they vary is because these things are typically measured when DOF is small or OOF blur is large, and this happens at small subject distances, where the lens is no longer at a focal length corresponding to infinity focus, and the effective f-number is no longer equal to the relative f-number--thus the magnification and pupil ratio *do* affect the DOF, but only in the sense that the imaginary creature sees the incoming light differently because the lens has refocused in a (design-specific) way that no longer makes the exit pupil look the same. It still can't tell what the focal length is or even the subject distance. It just sees an exit pupil that is f/5.6 instead of f/2.8, for example.

As for the other characteristics of the lens, such as aberrations, these too play a significant role. The extent of DOF that is observable may be diminished if there are, for example, spherical aberrations; similarly, the perceived extent of background blur may be greater in lenses with undercorrected spherical aberration when shooting a sharp foreground subject--though the blur disk may actually not be larger, its boundary may be less well-defined, thus increasing the perception of blur.

Ultimately, modeling DOF and background blur is only approximate unless you can ray-trace the actual optical formula for the lens; and even then, one needs to account for properties such as dispersion and diffraction. And even if you could do *that*, remember that real lenses vary in their manufacturing precision. In the end, it's just not that important to go around comparing millimeters of DOF or OOF blur. It makes for an interesting academic exercise, but in terms of appreciating the artistry of photography, such technical minutiae are at most a minor footnote. Even if you could empirically show that one 40mm f/2 lens has twice the background blur as another 40/2 lens, what good does it do to try to attribute it to some aspect of its design? It's not as if you can take that knowledge and apply it in another case; each lens is different. Just use the lens you want to use and be done with it.



Nov 25, 2011 at 11:22 AM
carstenw
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p.2 #6 · Depth of field revelation.


There are positive uses for the knowledge of which lenses have more DoF though. If you want a lot of DoF then the lens which gives you more may keep you from going into diffraction territory. More useful for my purposes, sometimes you want more DoF at closer distances, such as when you are shooting portraits, and the 50MP, for example, gives this effortlessly, whereas the 50P takes more stopping down, thus losing some light. On the other hand, if I want subject isolation, I would choose a 50 Planar over the 50MP, since I find the blur not only thinner, but also more attractive. I think owning both is well worth it, if the money isn't a problem. Each has its own uses.


Nov 25, 2011 at 11:29 AM
Sami Ruusunen
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p.2 #7 · Depth of field revelation.


enlightening example with microscopic creature wickerprints more of these please


Nov 25, 2011 at 11:34 AM
AhamB
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p.2 #8 · Depth of field revelation.


^Regaring the last paragraph: I think it's definitely useful to know that differently designed lenses of the same FL can have significantly different amounts of DOF (very different focus transition). I'm very happy that these comparisons between the MP50/2 and the P50/1.4 are available here, thanks to the contributions of the likes of Samuli, Carsten and Wayne. I'm not going to explain why, because it's the reason why I'm on this forum in the first place (so it should be a given).


Nov 25, 2011 at 11:37 AM
obik
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p.2 #9 · Depth of field revelation.


Sami Ruusunen wrote:
I'm interested the "larger front pupil gives different dof" statement, does that mean that medium format 100/4 lens gives different dof than 100/4 35mm lens when both used on same 35mm camera?


That's not what I said. What I said is that the pupil magnification factor, i.e. the size of the exit pupil divided by the size of the entrance pupil, affects dof. Toothwalker goes into it, I'm sure.



Nov 25, 2011 at 04:23 PM
timballic
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p.2 #10 · Depth of field revelation.


I find that the C/Y 35-70/3.4 has a rather poor depth of field even at the smaller stops.
Any more with poor or good depth of field?



Dec 01, 2011 at 04:43 PM
mh2000
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p.2 #11 · Depth of field revelation.


Umm, isn't the whole point of photography to end up with an image that is viewible by other people?

Yes, DoF is a complex concept, that's why there are just simple rule of thumb equations and no definitive realities. It all comes back to final output! People who try to decouple the concept from final output are missing the whole point.

denoir wrote:
Ken, that is a fair point, but again, it's looking at it from the output side - something we usually don't do. When we say a lens is sharp or not we generally look at 100% crops. For most optical features the projection on the sensor is the point we look at. After that it isn't about optics any more.

The DOF concept is especially messy as it doesn't take into consideration pixel density and the final evaluation is based on a rather poorly defined appraisal of looking at the output image. Your eyesight will for instance affect DOF as well,
...Show more



Dec 01, 2011 at 04:59 PM
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