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Archive 2011 · Shimming Viewfinder on 5D
  
 
OpticalFlow
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Shimming Viewfinder on 5D


JimBuchanan wrote:
If you don't want to purchase all shims, order just 2 or 3 of the thinnest and maybe one that is thinner than your current one. They are made of brass or bronze so they should be precise in their thickness, so stacking 2 or 3 shouldn't be a problem.


That was my plan, but if I can narrow it down - that helps. The shipping cost of $10 and 5-7 day wait are an incentive to get the order right the first time (and maybe order a couple of shims more just to err on the side of caution).



Nov 24, 2011 at 01:16 AM
JimBuchanan
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Shimming Viewfinder on 5D


Toothwalker wrote:
f = focal length
dv = object distance according to viewfinder image
ds = object distance according to sensor image
h = required shim thickness
(add shims when h is positive, remove shims when h is negative)

h = f*f/(dv-f) - f*f/(ds-f)

In Beni's case we have

f = 0.050 m
dv = 1.00 m
ds = 1.07 m

and h becomes +0.00018 m.

dv and ds should be measured from the front principal plane of the lens. If the location of this plane is not known you should avoid a test setup where the object is close to the lens, because that could result in a large relative measurement
...Show more

Ha Ha, very funny.



Nov 24, 2011 at 01:50 AM
Toothwalker
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Shimming Viewfinder on 5D


JimBuchanan wrote:
Ha Ha, very funny.


?

It was not meant to be funny.




Nov 24, 2011 at 04:31 PM
Beni
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Shimming Viewfinder on 5D


OK, I've got pretty much perfect focus using the calibrated, scientific and accurate shimming method of 3 strips of scotch tape on the left and right side of the EE-S screen. Looks bleeding ugly through the viewfinder though, I can't cut or stick thin enough strips and is only really fully accurate in the centre of the screen. Suppose it will do till I work out how to buy shims in the UK.

Question, the shims stay up when I drop the viewfinder down, is the only way to release them and install new ones to unscrew the two screws just above where you release the viewfinder?



Nov 27, 2011 at 10:26 PM
molson
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Shimming Viewfinder on 5D


Beni wrote:
Question, the shims stay up when I drop the viewfinder down, is the only way to release them and install new ones to unscrew the two screws just above where you release the viewfinder?



Check out this link:

http://shimworld.wordpress.com/2009/08/24/cleaning-the-5d-mk-ii-viewfinder/

Your procedure to access the shims will be pretty much identical to what he shows there.



Nov 27, 2011 at 10:33 PM
geniousc
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Shimming Viewfinder on 5D


FWIW, I took my 5D2 to Canon Irvine with the identical problem. The repair ticket said that the problem was electronic. I don't see how this could be an electronic problem but that's what they said, it is ok now. Live View and viewfinder now agree when in focus, I use an EG-S screen.

Gene



Nov 29, 2011 at 02:16 AM
Beni
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Shimming Viewfinder on 5D


Went out today with my scotch tape shimmed viewfinder, about 1 in 2 focus accuracy which I console myself is still better than my 5D can do @ f1.4 with an AF lens!


Nov 29, 2011 at 12:32 PM
AhamB
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Shimming Viewfinder on 5D


Beni wrote:
Question, the shims stay up when I drop the viewfinder down, is the only way to release them and install new ones to unscrew the two screws just above where you release the viewfinder?


Have a look at the link that molson posted. I can confirm that the procedure is identical with the 5Dmk1. You need to remove those two small screws and the metal plate that has the two little foam cushions and then use a small flat screwdriver or something like that to lift the tab that holds the shims in place. Then they just fall onto the frame that normally holds the focusing screen.


@Gene: You're right, it's a problem with optical calibration and has nothing to do with electronics.



Nov 29, 2011 at 01:11 PM
Beni
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Shimming Viewfinder on 5D


Pic taken today @ f1.4 with my Takumar using the scotch tape shimmed viewfinder! Wasn't easy, the tree was heavily backlit and the lens had a lot of veiling flare making focusing difficult. I put the camera on a tripod and used my viewfinder magnifier and it worked perfectly!






Nov 29, 2011 at 03:27 PM
telyt
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Shimming Viewfinder on 5D


Beni wrote:
Incidentally I have two 5D's, both with viewfinder calibration as wildly out as each other, canon, there are only 3 mechanical functions that a camera uses to create a photo. Shutter, aperture and focus. Is being able to see accurate focus that irrellevant in today's world that they bother so little to get it accurate? There are shims in the body, did they take a handful and chuck them in without even checking? It's not that the AF is so reliable, took 6 trips to canon to get that right and even so one body is less accurate than
...Show more

I probably ought to limit my comments on this subject. Let's just say I'd NEVER consider buying a camera that has demonstrated in numerous ways the maker's indifference to a basic function like seeing what is or is not in focus.



Nov 29, 2011 at 03:43 PM
 

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Beni
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Shimming Viewfinder on 5D


Wasn't any choice really back 7 years ago (or whenever they were first released, I had one of the first in the UK) when I bought mine, if you wanted affordable FF, and it wasn't that cheap even then, you could choose between a 5D or a, um, 5D. Only other choice then was the 1DsII and as that was still current the price tag was over the $6500 mark (I had a 1Ds original, yeuch).

Now of course there are more choices for FF, I don't know how good the D700 is for alt lenses and a 5DII is built to the same standards as the 5D was (cheap and cheerful) but of course a 1DsII is far more affordable now and even the 1DsIII used to be cheap on the 2nd hand market giving LV and the best tonality I've ever seen from a DSLR, I miss mine, especially as I sold it for a fraction of what the current prices are! . I hear the Sony A850 and A900 are also good alt platforms and by all accounts they have an incredible chip in them, still no LV for alt focusing though unfortunately.

For the likes of me however who had made his 5D's do 6 gruelling years of pro photography including commercial, wedding/event, street, landscape, etc, I suppose it's a case of better the devil you know, a stubborn resolve to bully the 5D into doing the job however lacking the feature set as has been the case with the use of mine for all these years, a very serious respect for what the chip on the 5D can do compared to even modern day competition and finally a serious lack of funds . In all honesty, even if I had the spare $1500 at present, I wouldn't spend it on a 5DII or 1DsII, I'd pony up for the 50L whose wide open look which I couldn't begin to afford drove me to the takumar in the first place. If you could give me the look I'm after I'd take AF any time. MF is for those with better eyes than mine!



Nov 29, 2011 at 03:56 PM
telyt
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Shimming Viewfinder on 5D


Beni wrote:
if you wanted affordable FF, and it wasn't that cheap even then, you could choose between a 5D or a, um, 5D. Only other choice then was the 1DsII and as that was still current the price tag was over the $6500 mark (I had a 1Ds original, yeuch).


Viewfinder calibration appears to be one of the costs of the "affordable" option. How much is your time worth? How much paying work has been lost or had to be re-done because the pictures are out of focus? Cheap is too expensive for me.



Nov 29, 2011 at 04:12 PM
Beni
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Shimming Viewfinder on 5D


If I needed to use a DSLR with alt lenses for paying work or pro usage 6 years ago then you might have had a point (arguable given how easy and cheap the solution is compared to a 1 series upgrade). The choice was made many years ago as to which cameras and system to invest in, it was with hindsight the best choice I could have made then as the system is still the tools which I use for my full time profession in photography today.

I have neither the money or the inclination at present to spend a fortune in changing that choice now to save the coin on buying a set of shims and spending a couple of hours one day shimming my viewfinder or spending the $100 or so for canon to do it for me or infact just using scotch tape as I have done. All for a limited personal project using a lens I paid $70 for, including the adaptor and shipping from the states to the UK.



Nov 29, 2011 at 04:24 PM
Specularist
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Shimming Viewfinder on 5D


Telyt: most SLRs seem poorly built these days. This isn't necessarily something that can be solved by buying a pricier body. I've heard lots of complaints even with D3-class bodies. Both my D300S and D700 needed shimming, though the D700 was admittedly very close. The D300S was way out.

Maybe a Canon 1Ds Mark III would be better, on average, but I wouldn't bet the house on it.

Speaking of shims, I got mine by calling the Nikon UK Spare Parts department. The price was nominal, less than 1 per shim, if I remember correctly. I presume Canon must have an equivalent parts service. Find it and raid their warehouse, Beni. Scotch tape?!

In the long term, this problem would only be solved by widespread customer outrage, and as we here know, customers by and large have no interest whatsoever in manual focus (or even confirming autofocus accuracy visually). There isn't even mild dissatisfaction with today's viewfinders, much less alarm. I'm just glad I can still buy an SLR with an optical viewfinder at all!



Nov 29, 2011 at 04:33 PM
geniousc
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Shimming Viewfinder on 5D


I've had several CZ 50 1.4 ZE's that always focused at infinity on the left edge of the infinity sign. I wrote to Zeiss about it, their answer was it was done deliberately that way because of the wide tolerances of some Camera bodies. In my case the 5D2. I find the alignment of the 5D2 quite simply atrocious. How canon can market a camera body for $2500, sell a focusing screen that improves/enables manual focus, and have the viewfinder not match live view I will never know. It's crap. The only reason I put up with it is the beautiful sensor.

gene



Nov 29, 2011 at 04:36 PM
Beni
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Shimming Viewfinder on 5D


In the long term, this problem would only be solved by widespread customer outrage, and as we here know, customers by and large have no interest whatsoever in manual focus (or even confirming autofocus accuracy visually). There isn't even mild dissatisfaction with today's viewfinders, much less alarm. I'm just glad I can still buy an SLR with an optical viewfinder at all!



That ain't a joke! An EVF will be better for MF though once they get good enough, it's not that long away I'd say though I wonder what they'll do with DSLR bodies once they put EVF's into them and don't need the mirror box but still to keep them ergonomic enough to use with DSLR sized lenses, especially the pro zooms, and flashguns, etc.

Problem is probably that most don't know or forget what a real viewfinder used to look like, so bright, so georgous. I remember buying my Mamiya 645 Super after falling in love with the huge WLF viewfinder in the store!



Nov 29, 2011 at 04:38 PM
Specularist
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Shimming Viewfinder on 5D


The hard infinity stop not matching true infinity focus is another issue, geniousc, separate from that of viewfinder focus accuracy. It can be caused by incorrect flange distance (common, especially with the 5D/5D Mark II, it seems) or incorrect infinity adjustment on the lens.


Nov 29, 2011 at 04:41 PM
telyt
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Shimming Viewfinder on 5D


Beni wrote:
Problem is probably that most don't know or forget what a real viewfinder used to look like, so bright, so georgous.


+1 !!!

The calibration problem will go away once electronic viewfinders are good enough, meanwhile I'll keep my DMR working by whatever means necessary (gorgeous sensor and viewfinder, BTW) and with some luck I can skip the Rube Goldberg AF DSLR kludgeware entirely.



Nov 29, 2011 at 05:23 PM
AhamB
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Shimming Viewfinder on 5D


geniousc wrote:
How canon can market a camera body for $2500, sell a focusing screen that improves/enables manual focus, and have the viewfinder not match live view I will never know. It's crap.


They can do it because they sell only 4 manual focus lenses, and 30 or so different AF lenses? If you want a properly calibrated viewfinder out of the box, the 1D series is the only option I guess.



Nov 29, 2011 at 06:00 PM
geniousc
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Shimming Viewfinder on 5D


Specularist wrote:
The hard infinity stop not matching true infinity focus is another issue, geniousc, separate from that of viewfinder focus accuracy. It can be caused by incorrect flange distance (common, especially with the 5D/5D Mark II, it seems) or incorrect infinity adjustment on the lens.



You are correct but my point being that Zeiss is deliberately setting the 50 1.4 ZE to reach infinity early to compensate for mis-adjusted camera bodies. I have a letter from Zeiss to prove it. It just adds another factor to the manual focusing dilemna. The cameras are not set up properly forcing the lens maker to compensate to make sure their product works. I would just like a properly set up 5D2. That is VF agreeing with LV, flange to sensor distance correct. Good luck eh?



Nov 29, 2011 at 08:09 PM
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