In discussions of risks associated with the Buy and Sell board, Fred has made the comment that one should be wary of inquiries made outside actual listings on the board. I believe I've been trolled by someone who might be up to no good.
I posted a response on a WTB thread opened by a well regarded FM member. Later that day I received a PM from someone who said they too were in the market for the lens, assuming, of course, that my post on the thread meant I have one for sale. Cognizant of what Fred had said, I wrote back with a few details about the lens and said if he wished to go forward with the purchase, I'd initiate a FS listing on the Buy and Sell board so I can check his feedback and he can check mine.
I checked this person by clicking on his username in the PM and found he has ONE post and had joined a few days ago. Now the contact may have been perfectly legitimate. Everyone has to start somewhere. But under these conditions caution is very much in order. I haven't heard back following my PM.
I post this as a reminder to everyone that due diligence is called for with every transaction, but especially in order with new folks who have no feedback on the board. Someone who has earned trust by their actions on this board deserve to be treated with respect. But trust must be earned. Until it has, great care is required. So DON'T do a deal except within the context of a Buy and Sell listing initiated either by the other party or yourself. Check feedback. Make certain you have money in hand unless the person has excellent feedback. I'll cross ship on the promise of a check but ONLY with a person whom I know and who has proved they respect the community enough to handle transactions responsibly.
I'll post again if our new friend decides to follow up on his initial PM.
Excellent post, Curtis. I have routinely begun to evaluate "first posters" of high-dollar items. Indeed, we all have to and did start somewhere and I'm mindful of the other post your put up detailing in comprehensive fashion how a new person might do that. Fred also has given us the tools and the support to exercise due diligence, making FM clearly a premier site with respect to ensuring as much integrity as can be in any on-line venue. Would that other sites were equally as supportive.
So: Caveat cotton pickin' emptor is indeed in order
I received a second PM from this person, well written and courteous, informing me he'd bought the lens on this site for an attractive price. Checking, this person still has only one post and I can't find a copy of that lens sold anytime recently at any price, let alone the price he mentioned. Perhaps I missed the transaction and everything is on the up and up. Perhaps he didn't wish to do a transaction under the terms I outline. But regardless of what actually happened, my intention to be diligent with every new person who approaches me outside the Buy and Sell board wishing to do a transaction remains firm.
Curtis,
Excellant reminder. I have had a few, more so within the last 2 months, of the type of contacts you speak of.
99.9% the result of me posting my possible sale of present dslr's or high end lenses in posts other than B&S. Also 99.9% are NOT photographers but are dealers and/or sellers only. Upon looking at their feedback, I see that even with positive feedback, all are B&S FS or WTB/WTT ads.
And as Anthony mentions we all started somewhere but I now scrutinze all inquires 100%. When the "regulars" as posting here,started on FM,one's word was his bond and more so than not, a person to person phone call on high dollar items was the norm rather than the exception.
Now I require a phone number and I also do call the person prior to finalizing any deal. I also require verified paypal info and if not I check online
white pages" or zabasearch for verification of contacts info. Usually a "red flag" goes up with the people we are speaking of.
Good info, good discussion.
Dan
You cannot generalize that folks who have only posts in B&S are NOT photographers, they may be following other forums but use FM for just the B&S aspect so you do see there posts are predominantly in B&S FS or WTB/WTT ads.
mdbassman wrote:
Curtis,
Excellant reminder. I have had a few, more so within the last 2 months, of the type of contacts you speak of. 99.9% the result of me posting my possible sale of present dslr's or high end lenses in posts other than B&S. Also 99.9% are NOT photographers but are dealers and/or sellers only. Upon looking at their feedback, I see that even with positive feedback, all are B&S FS or WTB/WTT ads. And as Anthony mentions we all started somewhere but I now scrutinze all inquires 100%. When the "regulars" as posting here,started on FM,one's word was his bond and more so than not, a person to person phone call on high dollar items was the norm rather than the exception.
Now I require a phone number and I also do call the person prior to finalizing any deal. I also require verified paypal info and if not I check online
white pages" or zabasearch for verification of contacts info. Usually a "red flag" goes up with the people we are speaking of.
Good info, good discussion.
Dan ...Show more →
Hey jeev, good point. It would in that case then be useful for those folks to make note of that in their posting, perhaps by including links to their website, or to flickr or smugmug, or wherever their photographic efforts are on display. Absent that kind of information, I think that Dan's observation holds true. Just my .02
jeev wrote:
Hey anthony, I agree. Usually I post a sample with it where relevant for example here LINK.
Can you not make out from the pictures posted in B&S ad if they are indeed good photographers
I am not generalizing, I am factualizing. And you also have a very valid point jeev. Something I overlooked when making my reply. But......How are we to know if they are photographer's if all their posts are B&S ads?. Sofor the purpose of my reply, coming from another forum as a photographer to use FM as their B&S forum doesnot enter the "equation".
Plus that is NOT what I am referring to jeev. I am referring to the fact that if you check their posts history, all or the majority, that you see is B&S Forum. Has nothing to do with posting images that refer to the product you are selling.
Dan
anthonysemone wrote:
Hey jeev, good point. It would in that case then be useful for those folks to make note of that in their posting, perhaps by including links to their website, or to flickr or smugmug, or wherever their photographic efforts are on display. Absent that kind of information, I think that Dan's observation holds true. Just my .02
Well said Anthony! And Dan's point is most valid. Since Fred went to the 2nd B&S forum, if you do some checking you will see that many, MANY do nothing but B&S. The 1st B&S forum has begun to morph also.
Also the influx of scammers and the initiation of Fred's warnings, this post and the many other recent posts, validate the poster's, Anthony and Dan's point.
You will also notice the recent influx of new FM'ers circumventing the B&S forum rules and costs by posting their FS ads(not in the B&S "FS" format but in other means) on the Canon and Nikon forums.
Fortunatley or unfortunately as it were for proof, Fred has "deleted" the Canon and Nikon ads but the FM'ers that responded to the "newbies" circumventing the rules are still here.
Just my opinion.
Angelo
As Curtis stated, "Due Diligence" is all that Anthony,Dan and Angelo are putting forth. Sellers, whether photographer's or not, that move to FredMiranda to sell items, if they don't identify themselves as "photographers versus resellers, how is anyone to know jeev? If feedback or post history shows all B&S activity what does that tell you?
Let's all just "police" the B&S forums and get rid of those who want to turn this wonderful forum into a morphed craigslist or evil-bay.
Patrick
Personally, I have no problems with the fact many of those who are active on the Buy and Sell board don't have a presence elsewhere on the site. I was one of those folks during the first few years I visited the site. I certainly lurked on many forums but the only place I was active was the B&S forum. And I'm not even distressed that non-photographers may be using that forum to buy and sell gear. Ultimately, all I care about is that the person with whom I'm doing a transaction is trustworthy. The feedback system here is the best way to begin assessing a prospective trading partner. The better the feedback, the more comfortable I am and the more I'm inclined to make the transaction as simple as possible. Earlier this year I shipped a Canon EF 85 f/1.2L to a member on the promise of his check. He had 150 great feedback responses. That was a $1,200 transaction about which we were both very happy. He was celebrating completion of a graduate degree that weekend and had I waited for his check he would have missed the opportunity to use it. The fact it rained that weekend was beside the point. I was happy to accommodate him. And yes, the check arrived and it was good.
With E-Bay fees ratcheted up recently, I'm not surprised more folks are heading to this site. The cost of entry is extremely reasonable and gear that is well-priced tends to move quite quickly. Hopefully, some of the new sellers will stick around and join the community. But with more activity it isn't surprising that we'll have more unscrupulous characters trying to take advantage. Of course, some of the listings I see on photo.net are so ridiculous as to be laughable. Must be a few Nigerians who found that site... thankfully we haven't seen listings that are outright scams. By remaining vigilant and supporting one another, hopefully we'll maintain the collegiality that has always made FM a great place both to buy and sell gear, but also to hang out and share out love of photography.
I agree "Due Diligence" is a must.. PatrickDixon10 wrote:
As Curtis stated, "Due Diligence" is all that Anthony,Dan and Angelo are putting forth. Sellers, whether photographer's or not, that move to FredMiranda to sell items, if they don't identify themselves as "photographers versus resellers, how is anyone to know jeev? If feedback or post history shows all B&S activity what does that tell you?
Let's all just "police" the B&S forums and get rid of those who want to turn this wonderful forum into a morphed craigslist or evil-bay.
Patrick
FWIW, when a person uses eBay as a reference for B&S history, I like to track each transaction listed thereon to see what the dollar amounts are associated with the person's B&S record. No never mind what the overall positive feedback rating is, if they are buying and selling stuff for $1 or less, and get great feedback for those transactions, that surely doesn't support the inference that selling say 1500$ worth equipment will proceed positively.
Search an eBay ID for info and feedback to see what they've been selling. Recently an FM seller posted he lived in Seattle but his eBay address was Indiana.
Check eBay For Sale Items to see what they have up. In an FM post a guy said he was switching to Nikon: maybe --- but on eBay he was switching from Nikon, Canon, Panasonic and Sony --- about 30 cameras and a bunch of glass.
But even if an eBay ID looked legit for a low / no FB FM post it would be easy to send a contact through eBay to see if it really is the same person (or a borrowed ID).
Lastly a little game on the BS Board --- transactions between no/low FB Members. Easy for one operator with mulitlple ID to post a sale and feedback between them.
excellent points, unclechuck; I too have noticed on occasion that folks with one feedback are getting a positive feedback from another person who also has only one feedback, and it appears as though they've "sold/bought" to each other that particular item.
Points all well taken, so is it worth my bother to post a $1000 lens for sale here, not being a regular for a couple years or more and not having much (if any) feedback? Or should I just list on eBay? (I haven't bought or sold much there for a few years either, and I think that might mean that my feedback rating has vanished or been severely diminished.)
I ask this because I have an item to sell, was going to list it on eBay, but then remembered this site. It's been a long time since I've been active either place. Just looking for an honest opinion.... Thanks!
Folks without feedback certainly can post items for sale, but should expect to work a bit harder to establish their bona fides. To be able to sell you have to subscribe, which is something the folks gaming the system by responding to Want To Buy listings don't do. That is a plus. Second, since you're creating a listing, you have the opportunity to post photos of the gear in question. This is essential for someone without feedback on this site. The photos must be of the item offered and in enough detail that a prospective buyer can evaluate what is on offer. Any problems with fit/finish or operation need to be noted. Missing those can be reputation breakers. The person would also do well to identify themselves, ideally with their full name and telephone number. Even in situations such as yours where your username is meaningless, you've included your full name and location in your profile. That is being willing to stand up within the community and identifying yourself. It also allows prospective buyers to check you out online and see what they can learn about you. I happily sent $2,500 to a stranger in Ohio after I found out he was a firefighter who did volunteer work coaching kids soccer. Further, feedback from other sites can be useful, even feedback from non-photography sites.
Be forthright, tell the truth about what you have for sale, demonstrate that truth with good photos, price your gear to the market and you'll have no problem. The fact you've been around for eight years helps you though it wouldn't help your brother unless you sell the gear on his behalf. That is not against the rules, though if photography interests him at all this may be a place he'd enjoy spending some time.
Well, I'm certainly not a spokesman for this site. So, speaking only for myself, you've had a pretty active history here, although it's a shame that we can't access your extensive posting history. Also, you've got a pretty complete profile, and it took a two second Google search to confirm that you appear still to be located in Gillette, WY With respect to what Curtis just posted, +1. Welcome back
Okay, thanks guys. I'll take some pictures of it and try it here for a few days. I used to be very active on eBay, but not for the last few years, so I thought this might be a less hassle-free way to sell it. Oh, and I didn't say this was for my BROTHER. I said BOTHER. I've got two brothers, but neither are into photography! Thanks again.
And here I thought my eyes were good and my reading comprehension excellent...
Give us a shot Don. I'm no longer shooting Canon so what you're offering won't suit me but the Canon folks seem quite active... I know I was when I was building a Canon kit and then later when I sold it all to play with Nikon gear. Good luck!
?. Sofor the purpose of my reply, coming from another forum as a photographer to use FM as their B&S forum doesnot enter the "equation".
With respect to what Curtis just posted, +1. Welcome back
I've got two brothers, but neither are into photography! Thanks again.
