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Archive 2011 · First Time - Totally lost - Help

  
 
oldrattler
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p.1 #1 · First Time - Totally lost - Help


Yesterday I was approached by a local music store that wants to use two of my images in an advertising campaign.. I am an amateur and have never had this experience.. What do I do next?? They offer no compensation but will acknowledge my ownership and post a contact number.. Exposure is a good thing, Right?? Thanks


Oct 25, 2011 at 06:07 AM
trenchmonkey
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p.1 #2 · First Time - Totally lost - Help


yeah, exposure IS a good thing BUT....still seek some compensation. Store credit, something like that if they
don't want to pay outright for your images. If you don't place value on your work, nobody else will.



Oct 25, 2011 at 06:19 AM
oldrattler
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p.1 #3 · First Time - Totally lost - Help


trenchmonkey wrote:
yeah, exposure IS a good thing BUT....still seek some compensation. Store credit, something like that if they
don't want to pay outright for your images. If you don't place value on your work, nobody else will.

Thank you... That is what I was thinking...



Oct 25, 2011 at 06:43 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #4 · First Time - Totally lost - Help


Ask them for a free guitar in exchange ... tell them they too can put the name of their store and phone number on it. Surely they'll value the exposure the same as they would cash. Of course, they'll decry that the guitar cost them money and they need to recoup that. So, ask them for music lessons (i.e. a service) or rental ... they're not losing any capital then, just missing out on an opportunity for compensation ... same as they are asking of you.

If someone is willing to barter with me ... I'll be glad to barter with them. But, if they are going to expect/demand cash for their form of compensation... then that's the most appropriate form of compensation they should use to compensate me. If they think you are being unreasonable for wanting cash (or store credit, etc. if that appeals to you) ... remember you've already got the product they want in your inventory. If they don't like your asking price/form of compensation (not suggesting to gouge), they are free to pass on it and go elsewhere to find such a product.

I've been a jerk trying to lowball someone before ... only to lose out on what was a REALLY GOOD deal ... I was just too foolish to realize how good of a deal it was, lesson learned. Trust me, it cost me much more when I finally found it again elsewhere, and I regret not jumping on the asking price of the REALLY GOOD deal. You likely represent a REALLY GOOD deal, compared to a commercial photographer ... and they should jump on it ... they just don't understand that yet, thinking they can get it for free ... if they can find someone to do so.

In the end, it will be an exchange that both sides are mutually agreeable to. It's not intended to sound bitter or trite ... but it'll likely take some negotiation and education on your part to get them to see things differently. You might also consider (in your hip pocket) referring them to a commercial photographer for comparison. Be patient & professional, and don't expose your 'eagerness' to get exposure / credit ... it may take some time for them to 'come around'.

Once someone has it in their head that 'exposure' & 'credit' are sufficient compensation for your time, effort, skill, talent, equipment investment, training, vision, artistry, etc. ... it's often times not an easy thing to change them. It can be done, but anticipate that it won't be as simple as saying that you'd prefer cash. It's a fine line between being defensive & argumentative vs. educating & negotiating.

Good Luck

Perspective:

A student goes to college to receive his education & training. He does 'internships' where he practices working in the real world and receives 'credit' for his practice work. Then, there comes a time when he expects to receive CASH for his hard earned studies & practice as a student (i.e. read amateur) that he is now applying to the business world.

The amount of time, practice and study, etc. that you (we) put into our craft as amateurs (i.e. students) does not LOCK us into a perpetual/eternal state of working for credit. There comes a time, i.e. when applying it to the business world, that "credit" is no longer the appropriate form of compensation ... whether as a fledgling college grad that now needs to start paying for his student loans, or as photographer that needs to offset his capital investments.

Sometime / somewhere, the conversion to cash is appropriate. Don't let the "I've only been an amateur" deter such thinking. After all, the fledgling grad may have "only been a student" ... but he still expects cash for his work in the business world. When & where you (i.e. each of us) make that conversion is highly variable, but just like the fledling grad ... the sooner, the better.

Edited on Oct 25, 2011 at 10:12 AM · View previous versions



Oct 25, 2011 at 08:52 AM
Littlebike
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p.1 #5 · First Time - Totally lost - Help


RustyBug wrote:
Ask them for a free guitar in exchange ... tell them they too can put the name of their store and phone number on it. Surely they'll value the exposure the same as they would cash.



Exactly.



Oct 25, 2011 at 08:55 AM
oldrattler
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p.1 #6 · First Time - Totally lost - Help


RustyBug wrote:
Ask them for a free guitar in exchange ... tell them they too can put the name of their store and phone number on it. Surely they'll value the exposure the same as they would cash. Of course, they'll decry that the guitar cost them money and they need to recoup that. So, ask them for music lessons (i.e. a service) or rental ... they're not losing any capital then, just missing out on an opportunity for compensation ... same as they are asking of you.

If someone is willing to barter with me ... I'll be glad to barter with
...Show more

Rusty; Thank you for the excellent advice.. The situation just fell into my lap yesterday. I was ask by one of the salesmen to see some of my work. While showing him, in the showroom, a man walked up and said, "that, right there, could be our next promo poster".. I afterwards found out he was the owner.. He ask me to leave two images to show his co-owner. At that time I told him I would be happy to allow the usage for a 10% discount on a bass guitar, and I retained ownership.. or they could talk it over and make me an offer.. I never thought of services or store credit. Again, Thank you, Jim



Oct 25, 2011 at 09:51 AM
oldrattler
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p.1 #7 · First Time - Totally lost - Help


Littlebike wrote:
Exactly.


Thank you for the support.



Oct 25, 2011 at 09:53 AM
mdude85
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p.1 #8 · First Time - Totally lost - Help


Yes, you should seek some form of compensation ... especially seeing as the guitar store is using your images to promote their business. In other words they want to make money off your photos ... but god forbid you make money off your own photos. I think the chances that you'll get any work from a phone number on the advert are slim to none.


Nov 08, 2011 at 12:35 AM
oldrattler
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p.1 #9 · First Time - Totally lost - Help


mdude85 wrote:
Yes, you should seek some form of compensation ... especially seeing as the guitar store is using your images to promote their business. In other words they want to make money off your photos ... but god forbid you make money off your own photos. I think the chances that you'll get any work from a phone number on the advert are slim to none.


I took my images home as the owners rejected any and all forms of compensation.. I never intended to sell them so I am out nothing but a little time.. Thank you one and all.. Jim



Nov 08, 2011 at 07:29 AM
mdude85
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p.1 #10 · First Time - Totally lost - Help


Their loss, best of luck!


Nov 08, 2011 at 02:05 PM
oldrattler
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p.1 #11 · First Time - Totally lost - Help


mdude85 wrote:
Their loss, best of luck!


Thank you..



Nov 08, 2011 at 02:47 PM
gridironphoto
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p.1 #12 · First Time - Totally lost - Help


You did the right thing by putting some value on them up front. Sounds like the owner was just doing some tire kicking, which is to be expected. You probably had a better chance of having the images used once you place some value on them rather than if you had just handed them over because the owner now has a new appreciation for their worth. Wish it would have brought you some instant fame and success, but you are obviously headed in the right direction. Good luck.


Nov 08, 2011 at 02:54 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #13 · First Time - Totally lost - Help


oldrattler wrote:
the owners rejected any and all forms of compensation.


Not even a Coke, a beer or a cup of coffee





Nov 08, 2011 at 03:45 PM
oldrattler
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p.1 #14 · First Time - Totally lost - Help


gridironphoto wrote:
You did the right thing by putting some value on them up front. Sounds like the owner was just doing some tire kicking, which is to be expected. You probably had a better chance of having the images used once you place some value on them rather than if you had just handed them over because the owner now has a new appreciation for their worth. Wish it would have brought you some instant fame and success, but you are obviously headed in the right direction. Good luck.


Thank you.. With this being the only music store in town I am sure we will talk again..



Nov 08, 2011 at 04:47 PM
oldrattler
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p.1 #15 · First Time - Totally lost - Help


RustyBug wrote:
Not even a Coke, a beer or a cup of coffee




You got it brother.. Not even a smell of a gratuity.



Nov 08, 2011 at 04:49 PM
exposuresltd
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p.1 #16 · First Time - Totally lost - Help


You got it brother.. Not even a smell of a gratuity.

You did the right thing.

Always put a value on your photography...trade, donation, or otherwise. I usually provide any trade or donation with an invoice showing the value and then how I've discounted it. Customers tend to respect you and photography a little more...or at least I hope they do.



Nov 14, 2011 at 05:51 AM
oldrattler
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p.1 #17 · First Time - Totally lost - Help


exposuresltd wrote:
You did the right thing.

Always put a value on your photography...trade, donation, or otherwise. I usually provide any trade or donation with an invoice showing the value and then how I've discounted it. Customers tend to respect you and photography a little more...or at least I hope they do.


Thank you.. It is not easy turning down positive recognition.. But ones time & effort is worth something..



Nov 14, 2011 at 06:26 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #18 · First Time - Totally lost - Help


oldrattler wrote:
It is not easy turning down positive recognition.



My wife & I go to craft fairs frequently. We see incredible pieces of workanship that range from precision furniture to phenomenal yard art, to beautiful paintings and exquisitely hand crafted jewelry and many other items of excellence (et al). Some of these things have hefty price tags, others not so much.

While we make it a point to share our recognition of the excellent workmanship with the more talented craftsmen and would love to have a lot of such items, we can't afford to buy everything that we give positive recognition to. So, we have to decide which items are of sufficient value to us that we actually purchase them (usually one or two). While the craftspeople all enjoy receiving the recognition that we give for respect of their craftsmanship, they don't give their works away just because we shared our appreciation & respect with them.

Also, because I truly do respect, appreciate and value their workmanship ... asking them to give me their craftsmanship for free doesn't even enter my mind. When I find something that I really want, I'm gonna be willing to pay for it ... even if I might 'haggle' a little (or a lot). Positive recognition, followed by an expectation of receiving it for free can be a patronizing, 'passive-aggressive' left-handed form of devaluation/disrespect.

I can't buy everything I like, but I sure don't expect people to go around giving things to me for free just because I like them. Gee, Mr. Camera maker, I just love what you've done with your new forty gazillion megapixel, world's most perfect, for what I need camera ... if you let me have one that you've already built (i.e. it's not gonna cost you anything more, you've already done the work) for free, I'll be sure and tell everyone who asks me where I got it, that it came from you.

Strong "positive recognition" followed by a refusal to "value" my work ... is more of a "slap in the face" to me. Of course, maybe it's just that your offer of 'exposure' has not proven itself to be of any real value ... despite your insinuation that it is of significant value, albeit unfounded, unseen and historically unsubstantiated (exceptions do exist, but they should be just that ... i.e. "exceptional").

In that regard, I'm good with, "I'm sorry, that's out of my budget", or "I can't afford THAT MUCH", or "I don't want to pay THAT MUCH", or "I don't think it's worth THAT MUCH", or "it isn't worth THAT MUCH to me" or any other likewise variant. At least here, they are placing value on my work and maybe we 'haggle', maybe we don't ... even if we can't agree on a prescribed amount. But, to put such strong recognition to something first, and then afterwards to follow it up by saying that you aren't willing to pay ANYTHING (i.e. I want if for free) ... then you are a liar and a wanna-be-legal-thief ... when you can get away with it.

After that last line, I should probably change my ID from "RustyBug" to "CrustyBug".

My photography comes from an "old school" bent (albeit learning new ways) ... and I still appreciate a handshake and a cup of coffee (Pepsi, please) from a person of integrity. Yup, dinosaurs do still roam the earth.

Recognition & value ... integrally related, yet not the same thing. Kind of a right-brain / left-brain thing, they work best when they co-exist ... not so well when you try to separate them and/or use one "in-lieu-of" the other. Too many times, people let their emotion/recognition side over-shadow their logic/value side ... and there are plenty of people around who will gladly exploit that if you let them.

Edited on Nov 14, 2011 at 11:08 AM · View previous versions



Nov 14, 2011 at 10:08 AM
cineski
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p.1 #19 · First Time - Totally lost - Help


Any time a small business (or large one for that matter) places an image credit on an advertisement, the whole world knows that photographer will generally work for free.


Nov 14, 2011 at 10:37 AM
oldrattler
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p.1 #20 · First Time - Totally lost - Help


Thank you for the input.. I have never made money off of my photography and never expect to.. But, I was shocked that people would ask to use your images and offer nothing in return.. I guess I still have things to learn about life..


Nov 14, 2011 at 11:57 AM
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