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Archive 2011 · 580EXII woes

  
 
epantiel
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p.1 #1 · 580EXII woes


Hey,

I do alot of nightclub photography, and my 580exii was not working as it normally does last night.

My usual setup is the 580ex on camera as Master, with a 430exii as slave triggered wireless off camera. Using the A:B ratio 1:8. Works normally no problem, but last night, the on camera flash would occasionally not fire. And by occasionally, I mean, 4-5 shots would go through, with nothing.

The shutter would click, picture taken, but the flash wouldn't go off. It was a pity, because it caused me to miss alot of great shots.


Has this happened to anyone else, and if so what is the solution?



Sep 23, 2011 at 09:42 PM
JohnBrose
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p.1 #2 · 580EXII woes


I would guess it's either bad batteries, a failing flash or a failing tube. Did it still trigger your slave? Was the lcd on the back still operational when it wasn't going off?What type of power were you using, internal alkalines or rechargables or an external pack?


Sep 23, 2011 at 09:51 PM
Garry Burton
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p.1 #3 · 580EXII woes


The Rubber seal around the bottom of the EXII might be the problem, it may hinder good contact with the Hot Shoe. I remove mine unless the weather is iffy.

Your Hot Shoe may need tightening:: http://www.conraderb.com/flashrepair/

Your flash or HS contacts may need cleaning, I use an eraser to clean any crud off the contacts.

As above, your batteries might be fooked. If you're banging away at full power, you will more than likely trigger the thermal cut off and your EXII will need time to cool down. Usually happens with my suggestion below but you will be hammering it...

Suggestion, if your going to do a lot of event work, get yourself a battery pack to help with recycling time and for extending your shoot time. I can easily shoot 1000+ shots without any lack of performance. More than enough for the average event.

Cheers Gaz



Sep 24, 2011 at 04:59 AM
epantiel
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p.1 #4 · 580EXII woes


JohnBrose: It didn't trigger the slave because it never fired. The LCD was still operational, the batteries were freshly charged rechargables.

I can't imagine the batteries being "fooked" though, seeing how the are just charged, and the main flash to slave power ratio is 1:8. If anything dies of lack of battery power first, it should be the slave.

We'll see how it goes tonight. A battery pack will be a pain, as I am working in nightclubs, and my hands are full as us, I will try to tighten the hotshoe tonight.



Sep 24, 2011 at 05:41 AM
JohnBrose
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p.1 #5 · 580EXII woes


It doesn't fire the slave with the flash tube, it is the near infrared beam that fires it, so it could have fired the slave if it was just the flash tube that was faulty. That's my take any way. A battery pack would just go on your belt or strap so wouldn't really be held. It would add to the equipment though.


Sep 24, 2011 at 06:19 AM
ukphotographer
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p.1 #6 · 580EXII woes


It is the flash tube which is used for the (IR) signal. Only the IR part of the flash tube spectrum is used for the communication and this happens prior to the main flash exposure. The red part of any illumination you see is just focus assist.


Sep 24, 2011 at 06:37 AM
Garry Burton
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p.1 #7 · 580EXII woes


How do you know your batteries are OK? Have your tested all of them with a multi meter to see if they hold their charge? It only takes one bad battery or battery that won't hold it's charge and the flash won't work as well as it should.
Before I head out, I test with all of my AAs with a cheapo tester and test with a multi meter if there is an issue.
if you've dropped your AAs a few times you might have broken the core which will fook your battery and it will under perform.

If you're not interested in responses, don't ask for help.

I guess they don't say "thanks for the help and ideas everyone" in Sweden?




Sep 24, 2011 at 07:20 AM
rantonishak
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p.1 #8 · 580EXII woes


epantiel wrote:
We'll see how it goes tonight. A battery pack will be a pain, as I am working in nightclubs, and my hands are full as us, I will try to tighten the hotshoe tonight.



If possible, I sure hope you get a chance to test your setup "before" the evening gig.. That way, you can try the different ideas suggested.

Please keep us posted.....

Sincerely,
Randal









Sep 24, 2011 at 07:37 AM
ukphotographer
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p.1 #9 · 580EXII woes


Garry Burton wrote:
Your Hot Shoe may need tightening:: http://www.conraderb.com/flashrepair/


Useful link..

From reports it seems the 580 is sometimes prone to losing contact with the hotshoe when it's used in portrait orientation. Were the missed frames in portrait orientation? This might help you solving your problem.



Sep 24, 2011 at 07:47 AM
Garry Burton
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p.1 #10 · 580EXII woes


^^^

yes and that rubber boot get's in the way. The old thumb wheel was the best idea for ensuring ideal contact.

I have never had an issue with my 550EX in the HS, ever.



Sep 24, 2011 at 07:59 AM
cgardner
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p.1 #11 · 580EXII woes


The 580exII has a thermal protection override which shuts down the unit to cool without warning if overheated. If you had been using it heavily that might have been what happened.

Batteries might also be the culprit. I've had a similar problem with my 580ex which I traced to one of the four AA's being faulty. The batteries would appear to charge OK and run the display, but fail under the load of recharging the capacitors.

Other 580exII problems have been caused by poor / intermittent contact between the flash and the hot shoe due to the weather seal, metal foot, redesign of the pins, etc. Also check the hot shoe of the camera which can sometime loosen.

As for the IR? This is from Chuck Westfall, of Canon USA from a 2009 e-mail exchange I had with him about the role of IR in the Canon flashes.

The sensitivity of the wireless metering sensor on the front of a 550EX, 580EX, 580EX II or ST-E2 isn't stated in any of the documentation I've seen. Like the European web site says, the EX Speedlites with master unit capability emit visible light preflashes through their main flashtubes, so IR is not involved for wireless flash communication with those products. The ST-E2 also uses a conventional flashtube and reflector to emit its wireless signals, but the reflector is covered by a translucent red panel. If you're in a darkened room, you can see the preflash from an ST-E2 (as well as the AF Assist beam, but that of course is a separate issue), so for that reason, the wireless signals are not completely in the IR range. However, the peak wavelength for the wireless communication signal from the ST-E2 is 750 nanometers, which is at the low end of the IR spectrum. On the other hand, the AF assist beam for the ST-E2, as well as for all other EX Speedlites, has a peak wavelength of 695 nanometers, which is still within the visible light spectrum.

So apart from the ST-E2 which dates back to the 420ex, all the Canon devices signal with visible coded pre-flash light bursts from the flash tube using this sequence in ETTL mode...

http://super.nova.org/TP/CanonETTL.jpg

To the extent any IR only filtration occurs it would be due to the lens over the slave sensor which is the smaller dark lens on top of the bigger red one which is the AF assist and has nothing to do with the flash signaling.

Canon flash metering has evolved from TTL (film bodies) to E-TTL (bodies < 2004), to E-TTLII (bodies > 2004) and the EX flashes are made backwards compatible with all three modes an the original IR only ST-E2 master device.

Canon film cameras metered off the film surface during the actual exposure using what it called "TTL" metering. A problem of the 580exII is that it sometimes switches by itself to TTL mode and firing at full power is related to that legacy metering system. Losing contact with the hot shoe make the 580exII think its been instructed to switch to the legacy TTL film body mode. The flash is fired, but command to stop the flash never comes with a digital body so the flash fires at full power.

Digital sensors required moving the metering to the viewfinder before the actual exposure and using pre-flash to meter for flash. As noted in the diagram all the flash metering — which includes a baseline ambient reading separate from the one controlling shutter/aperture — all the pre-flashes and metering occur after the shutter is fully pressed. That can create exposure problems in some scenes if you meter the shutter/aperture with half-press of the shutter button then recompose in P, Tv and Av. A solution is to move AF lock to * and only half-press to lock AE and fully-press the shutter to meter for flash after recomposing.

Why was IR filtration used on the flash tube based output ST-E2 then abandoned on subsequent Master devices? My guess is that when the pre-flash metering technology was being developed the timing of pre-flash commands was causing a blink reflex in the subjects. But by the time the 550ex was issued the problem had been solved. The pre-flashes are only a few bytes in length and occur immediately before the main flash. From behind the camera the pre-flashes and main flash blend together with the main flash. Many continue to think the commands must be IR because they don't see any pre-flashes and confuse the red AF assist lens with the flash signaling. Adding to the confusion is the fact the ST-E2 remains popular as an invisible AF assist lamp for shooting ambient only in very low light.

Canon flash continues to get beat-up over the misunderstood IR thing. The negative feedback and bashing started back when the ST-E2 was the only way to trigger a slave. The problem with the ST-E2 isn't the fact it uses IR but that it is small and underpowered for the task which limits its range to about 10 feet — you can spit further.

Due to the combination of the ST-E2 range, that it and the 420ex were ETTL only and the dismal performance of the original AF point biased ETTL flash metering Canon flash did really suck in bodies prior to the 20D and 5D and the more powerful 550ex and 580ex Master flashes. One of the main reasons I held off buying into a Canon DSLR system until 2004 were the reports I read of how dreadful flash metering was on the early Canon models D30, D60, 10D.

The 20D and 5D where among the first ETTL-II models which use zone evaluation for metering flash. I bought a 20D and a pair of 580ex flashes. I skipped the ST-E2 because I'd been reading all the negative feedback and been using a pair of Vivitar flashes on bracket for fill and stand as keep since the early 70s and wanted a similar configuration with Canon. I was one of the first to sort out how the ETTL-II flash metering actually works in practical terms via testing and shared my results in my tutorials at http://photo.nova.org/ Chuck Westfall thought enough of them to recommend them in one his monthly PhotoNotes columns a few years back.

Signaling range depends on the footprint of the Master and its intensity. If you want maximum signaling range with the Canon optical system, logically you'd want to use the most powerful flash Canon makes as Master. By avoiding the ST-E2, using an ETTL-II body and the 580ex as the Master I dodged most of the problems that plagued the Canon flash system prior to 2004. I still use my pair of 580ex flashes without any radio triggers and have no problems with range because I don't used modifiers which block the sensor on the slave.

IR or not? It really doesn't affect performance one way or the other. Yes line of sight is needed outdoors and the range is more limited (25') but indoors the sensor window on the slave just needs to see the pre-flashes from the Master which can be bounced off ceilings and walls indoors at distances up to around 50'. The biggest shortcoming of the Canon flash system, apart from the lame underpowered ST-E2, is the fixed position of the slave sensor. For reliable signaling the front of the slave must point to the Master with the flash head rotated separately towards the subject. For years I've been suggesting the slave sensor be modified to make it plug-in module that could be positioned outside a modifier. That's what I did with my Wien Peanut triggers with Vivitars — plug them into the end of a PC cord. Being able to mount the slave sensor outside a SB would solve many of the signaling problems. But Canon has focused instead on things like adding waterproofing and thermal nanny mode instead of addressing the shortcomings of the system. I thought the 580exII was huge step backwards from the 580ex which is in all respects a very good performer. There are rumors of new Wi-Fi based flashes under development so we can only hope the next generation will be better.

That's not to say radio triggers aren't useful, I just can't justify the expense because I don't find them necessary for the type of shooting I do.



Sep 24, 2011 at 08:58 AM
ukphotographer
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p.1 #12 · 580EXII woes


cgardner wrote:
Like the European web site says, the EX Speedlites with master unit capability emit visible light preflashes through their main flashtubes, so IR is not involved for wireless flash communication with those products.


Except, IR is part of the spectrum provided by the main flash, yet the filter on the receiver filters out ALL but the necessary IR part of that spectrum.

The use of a 'red' filter doesn't 'colour' the light red, it cuts out all the other colour wavelengths contained in the white flash you see - only allowing the red and IR spectrum to pass through. Ergo, the IR used in the wireless communication and the popular references to it was there to begin with in the spectrum of the main flash.



Sep 24, 2011 at 09:25 AM
cgardner
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p.1 #13 · 580EXII woes


To clarify the quote taken out of context, that information was from Chuck Westfall of Canon not from me...

Do you have any documentation on exactly what wavelengths are passed through the window on the slave or is it just speculations on your part?

Given the fact that the ST-E2 emits only IR and near-IR and flashes emit full visible spectrum + IR and the slave only reacts to coded signals why do you suppose that a visible light cut filter is needed on the slave at all?






ukphotographer wrote:
Except, IR is part of the spectrum provided by the main flash, yet the filter on the receiver filters out ALL but the necessary IR part of that spectrum.

The use of a 'red' filter doesn't 'colour' the light red, it cuts out all the other colour wavelengths contained in the white flash you see - only allowing the red and IR spectrum to pass through. Ergo, the IR used in the wireless communication and the popular references to it was there to begin with in the spectrum of the main flash.




Sep 24, 2011 at 10:36 AM
ukphotographer
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p.1 #14 · 580EXII woes


cgardner wrote:
Given the fact that the ST-E2 emits only IR and near-IR and flashes emit full visible spectrum + IR and the slave only reacts to coded signals why do you suppose that a visible light cut filter is needed on the slave at all?


The common denominator there is the IR. That's all which is required. It's far cheaper to use the main flash tube of a flash unit as the transmitter than add a seperate communicator just for that purpose.

The STE-2 isn't a flash - so any flash emitting from it might be objectionable when used, but putting it behind a dark red IR filter makes the flash almost invisible. Behind the IR filter is a regular flash tube - just like the 580 flash tube. The Red filter over the flash works in exactly the same way that the IR receptor window filter works, it cuts the unimportant non-IR spectrum allowing only the IR spectrum and near IR to be transmitted. Only the IR spectrum is needed as the receiver normally only reacts to coded IR signals modulated at 38 KHz and sensitive to 940nm if the receivers were sensitive to white light or only visible light the ST-E2 wouldn't work. Taking the red cover off an ST-E2 would work just as well.


Perhaps the reason for the red filter over the receiver is to cut out any background noise or light interference from near IR spectrum, but one things for sure, only the IR aspect is required and it's efficiency is optimised for specific wavelength and modudulation. I'm pretty certain the communications would work even without the red filter on the receiver, but maybe not as efficiently(?) If you've ever seen a proper IR filter, it's almost black.. IR is invisible to the naked eye, even though the filter will allow that light through.



Sep 24, 2011 at 12:43 PM
dmacmillan
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p.1 #15 · 580EXII woes


Hey Garry,
I was in the middle of answering a question you posed and poof! the post disappeared. You asked "...so how does this help the OP...?" Still laboring under the delusion the pontifications are for the benefit of the OP, huh? Silly boy...

Well, the first three paragraphs did actually address the problem, but wait! They were repeats of posts directly before them, therefore added nothing.

For the OP, I suggest you try eliminating variables, then send for service if needed. ukphotographer and Garry seem to be on track. Nothing is more frustrating than to be on a shoot and have gear malfunction.



Sep 25, 2011 at 02:52 PM
Garry Burton
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p.1 #16 · 580EXII woes


Chucky Chucky Chucky,

Maybe you should check your thermal cut out?

I'll ask you again Chuck, how does your post help the OP with his issue?

Cheers Gaz



Sep 25, 2011 at 05:58 PM
BrianO
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p.1 #17 · 580EXII woes


JohnBrose wrote:
It doesn't fire the slave with the flash tube, it is the near infrared beam that fires it...


And where does that "infrared beam" come from? FROM THE FLASH TUBE!

I'm amazed at the number of people that don't know how the system works.



Sep 27, 2011 at 09:22 PM
BrianO
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p.1 #18 · 580EXII woes


epantiel wrote:
...last night, the on camera flash would occasionally not fire...


As Garry Burton suggested, it's most likely a problem with the flash not seating firmly in the hot shoe due to the rubber foot getting in the way (A known problem with the EX II.), or the foot or shoe being loose, or all of the above.

I always carry a small Phillips screw driver with me, and tighten the screws before a shoot, as they can loosen over time.



Sep 27, 2011 at 09:30 PM
dmacmillan
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p.1 #19 · 580EXII woes


BrianO wrote:
I always carry a small Phillips screw driver with me, and tighten the screws before a shoot, as they can loosen over time.

That's an excellent idea. When I was a pro, I always took a small toolkit with me on every shoot. Now that I'm a happy amateur, I still carry along a couple of small tools (screwdrivers, pliers, etc.)

It might not be a bad idea to have a screwdriver handy when visiting FM. You never know when you might come across someone with a screw loose!



Sep 28, 2011 at 07:51 AM
BrianO
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p.1 #20 · 580EXII woes


dmacmillan wrote:
...It might not be a bad idea to have a screwdriver handy when visiting FM. You never know when you might come across someone with a screw loose!





Sep 28, 2011 at 02:44 PM
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