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Archive 2011 · D700 vs. CoolScan5000ED
  
 
jhinkey
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · D700 vs. CoolScan5000ED


huddy wrote:
Looks like I may want to consider something like this if I continue to shoot slides. Do you think this could be modified for negatives with a negative carrier/holder John?


Not sure - was there a negative duplicator attachment for the PB-6 bellows?

- John



Aug 19, 2011 at 04:31 PM
jhinkey
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · D700 vs. CoolScan5000ED


Keith B. wrote:
I removed the frosted plastic from my PS-6 and the ES-1. Placing the frosted piece farther away from the slide eliminates all dust concerns, except on the slide itself of course. I use a clean, soft camel hair brush on the slides, followed by some blasts of canned gas.


Yes, I thought about this, but did not get to the point of looking to see if it could be removed - I guess it can, so I likely will.

Thanks -

John



Aug 19, 2011 at 04:32 PM
huddy
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · D700 vs. CoolScan5000ED


jhinkey wrote:
Not sure - was there a negative duplicator attachment for the PB-6 bellows?

- John


Haven't looked yet and probably won't have time to for awhile, it's just a thought of a way to scan negatives.



Aug 19, 2011 at 07:06 PM
CGrindahl
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · D700 vs. CoolScan5000ED


Love your experiment John and really enjoying the exchange with others playing in this field. What a great hobby photography is!


Aug 19, 2011 at 07:36 PM
jhinkey
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · D700 vs. CoolScan5000ED


huddy wrote:
Haven't looked yet and probably won't have time to for awhile, it's just a thought of a way to scan negatives.


The real issue with scanning negatives is doing the inversion to a positive - that, as I understand it, can be tricky.

John



Aug 19, 2011 at 07:46 PM
jhinkey
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · D700 vs. CoolScan5000ED


CGrindahl wrote:
Love your experiment John and really enjoying the exchange with others playing in this field. What a great hobby photography is!


Just wait until I post some "old" images captured with transparencies as examples.

I'm also planning on looking at the D700's in-camera multiple exposure image merging capability to see if I get a more usable dynamic range out of the slides.

John



Aug 19, 2011 at 07:48 PM
tlong
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · D700 vs. CoolScan5000ED


CGrindahl wrote:
Love your experiment John and really enjoying the exchange with others playing in this field. What a great hobby photography is!



+1
I have tons of slide trays of pics from when I was a little girl. I have been trying to figure out what to do with them. I am so glad you have shown us your setup.

Tracey



Aug 20, 2011 at 01:20 AM
jhinkey
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · D700 vs. CoolScan5000ED


OK - Just a quick note.

I have improved my setup (see previous picture) using the light table and have imaged some very demanding slides that have as much dynamic range as a slide/transparency can have. My initial findings indicate that the D700 does not quite have as much dynamic range as the slide scanner.

Images and details of my camera settings to follow in the next couple of days. I would be very interested to know if I am getting all of the dynamic range out of the D700.

John



Aug 22, 2011 at 05:18 AM
Beni
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · D700 vs. CoolScan5000ED


What about resolution/detail and tonality?


Aug 22, 2011 at 06:40 AM
jhinkey
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · D700 vs. CoolScan5000ED


Beni wrote:
What about resolution/detail and tonality?


Yes, let me post some pics tonight.

John



Aug 22, 2011 at 07:15 PM
 

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jhinkey
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · D700 vs. CoolScan5000ED


A couple things I plan on doing:

- Changing my light source to include something other than my light table
- Using the macro lens to zoom in so that the 12MP D700 has approximately the same field of view on a per-pixel basis to see if there is any more resolution in the transparency compared to the higher resolution CoolScan5000ED image.
- Make some additional adjustments to the camera settings prior to capture
- Image the same slide with my D300 to see the difference between the D300 and D700

John



Aug 22, 2011 at 07:18 PM
jhinkey
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · D700 vs. CoolScan5000ED


OK - here's my torture test images that I've been using. These are not atypical for me since I did do a lot of climbing and mountaineering BC (before children).

Here's the CS5000ED scan:

http://www.seanet.com/~hinkey/D700SlideImaging/IMG35_small.jpg

Here's the image using the D700 + 55/3.5 micro + light table:

http://www.seanet.com/~hinkey/D700SlideImaging/_NIK2726_small.jpg

As you can see it appears that the scanned slide seems to have more dynamic range as the highlights are not blown (see the snow on the ridge) and the shadows have less noise and more color to them (see my friends red-ish jacket). Now I used digital ROC on these images in NikonScan, so it's recovered some of the shadow detail already.

One issue with the Nikon Scanner is that is suffers from flare - see my knee sticking up at the bottom of the frame (I'm in yellow) - it should be black as it is in the D700 image. I have seen this in many of my slide scans and have read that this is a characteristic of the 5000ED - it's not always there, but it can and will occur in extreme circumstances (black dog in white snow kind of images). The D700 + 55/3.5 micro seems to not show any kind of flare in the same situations. I've scanned some other slides that have this same issue with the CS5000ED, but the D700 + 55/3.5 micro does not (all else being equal).

The D700 shows much less color in the shadows and has some slightly blown highlights. Note the upper right corner going to black much earlier than in the slide scan.

This bothers me - is this just a pure DR issue or could it be the color balance of my light table light source?

I've been thinking of getting a D7000 to replace my D300 and it is supposed to have approximately 1.5 stops better DR at base iso according to DXO if I remember correctly - does anyone think it may do a better job at this task?

Also, assuming the same final image size, the D7K would have a bit more resolution and is getting close to the CoolScan5000ED. At 100% viewing you can see a bit more detail in the scanned slide than with the D700, but it's only viewable at 100%.
Assuming 1:1 reproduction and full imaging of the slide, D700 has 3,020 ppi while the 5000ED advertises 4,000 ppi, - 33% more than the D700. At full image size, the D7K has 3,477 ppi.

OK - I invite your thoughts - I will try a different light source or perhaps take away the built-in diffuser of the PS-6 slide copying adapter (it seems a ever so slight bit on the yellow side to me - perhaps to offset the slightly blue tint from flashes).

John

EDITED to correct math mistakes!


Edited on Aug 23, 2011 at 06:47 PM · View previous versions



Aug 23, 2011 at 04:41 AM
theSuede
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · D700 vs. CoolScan5000ED


The ppi of the sensor is totally irrelevant until you factor enlargement. What you're really interested in is the resulting ppi on the slide.

Reality:
D700 @ 1:1, perfect slide crop (no excess areas in the picuture) > 3020dpi target resolution
D300 @ 1:2, perfect slide crop (no excess areas in the picuture) > 3020dpi target resolution
D7000 @ 1:2, perfect slide crop (no excess areas in the picuture) > 3450dpi target resolution
the CoolScan : 4000dpi real target resolution. (?)

You you can, mail me the raw from the sample file and I'll take a look at it.



Aug 23, 2011 at 05:24 PM
jhinkey
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · D700 vs. CoolScan5000ED


theSuede wrote:
The ppi of the sensor is totally irrelevant until you factor enlargement. What you're really interested in is the resulting ppi on the slide.

Reality:
D700 @ 1:1, perfect slide crop (no excess areas in the picuture) > 3020dpi target resolution
D300 @ 1:2, perfect slide crop (no excess areas in the picuture) > 3020dpi target resolution
D7000 @ 1:2, perfect slide crop (no excess areas in the picuture) > 3450dpi target resolution
the CoolScan : 4000dpi real target resolution. (?)

You you can, mail me the raw from the sample file and I'll take a look at it.


Oops, thanks, my math was out to lunch yesterday due to a head cold and related medication.

The 4000 dpi is what Nikon quotes and it looks like it comparing the image sizes between the scan and the D700 image (though they are not quite at the same magnification, they are close). With the 5000ED you have no choice with the resulting image size, so you must crop a bit, but you still get 4000ppi nonetheless.

Here is a link to the .NEF file from the D700. I'd greatly appreciate it if you could take a look at it.

www.seanet.com/~hinkey/D700SlideImaging/_NIK2726.NEF

John



Aug 23, 2011 at 06:30 PM
theSuede
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · D700 vs. CoolScan5000ED


Here's a quick take. According to the raw file, something other than the camera is limiting the DR of the file. I'd suggest playing around with the light source a bit. Total enveloping (180 diffusion) isn't really optimal for slides.

In a slide projector you have a really limited ray path "through" the pictures. Limiting the diffusion - having a more "straight thorugh" backlight - might give better results.




Aug 23, 2011 at 07:11 PM
theSuede
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · D700 vs. CoolScan5000ED


No "local" editing was done, just a straight pipeline raw conversion with a slide camera profile. I'd add in some light in the darkest areas of the people. Unfortunately there's very close to zero detail in the darkest areas. Better light and multishot might get you a bit further.

The desaturated area up towards the right corner seems to have some kind of problem with the colour interaction. The saturation quite simply isn't there in the raw file.



Aug 23, 2011 at 07:17 PM
jhinkey
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · D700 vs. CoolScan5000ED


Thanks - I'll give a different light source a try - maybe perhaps good old Sol since I can point my apparatus up at the sky if I want to.

I'm also going to get rid of the built-in diffuser to see if that helps as well.

John



Aug 23, 2011 at 10:30 PM
Erie Patsellis
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · D700 vs. CoolScan5000ED


I use a Beseler Dual Mode Slide Duplicator, has both tungsten and strobe illumination, the ability to adjust color balance, built in bellows, I can use it up to 4x5 transparencies, etc. The Bowens Illumitran is similar as well.

Makes trivial work of scanning slides for a local studio, and it only takes about 10 seconds per slide, shooting tethered.



Aug 23, 2011 at 10:57 PM
jhinkey
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · D700 vs. CoolScan5000ED


I just ran outside with my setup and shot using the sun as direct illumination on the built-in diffuser of the PS-6 slide holder. I then took the diffuser off (two small screws) and repeated, but now pointing at a bright white sheet of paper laid flat on my outside table since without the diffuser I get an OOF image of the sun.

I'll post later on tonight.

John



Aug 23, 2011 at 11:04 PM
theSuede
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · D700 vs. CoolScan5000ED


As long as you find a light source that roughly fits your film, you just have to find a stable setup. Keep in mind that you want to keep exposures shorter than 1/1s, to keep the camera from applying unwanted NR to the raw file.

The shadow detail in the "stress-test" shot was quite probably lost already in the capture situation - having the sun directly in the frame lowers the optical contrast of the lens considerably. This means a flattening of shadow detail. I'm not too sure that there's very much more to get from the slide - I just mentioned that the setup could probably be tweaked to wring the last few grains of available detail out of it.

One thing I forgot to mention - you still have clipped values in the shot. Some parts in the snow have flatlined the green channel in the raw. Lower exposure by 1/3 - 2/3 Ev and use the MS function to compensate for the increase in noise.

Don't worry about colour too much now in the first steps. Each film type will be different. You will probably find a setting that you find acceptable for each film type...
......................

Reality outputs a continuous spectra. The film absorbs three chosen (chemically designed) bands out of the spectra - the three pigments of the film. When activated and then stabilized (developed), the pigments will not absorb the same wavelengths that activated them from the beginning. You get three DIFFERENT base pigments. A translation.

Then you shine an entirely different, very spiky spectra at the slide (your lightbox) - this light is filtered by the pigments in the slide, and exits towards the camera colour filters. Those filters are also individuals, and they don't correspond to anything that has happened earlier in the process(es). Then you convert this tristimuli input into a simulated continuous spectra again (actually XYZ stimuli) to be able to convert the raw to a standardized RGB set of colours (Adobe RGB? sRGB?) before you end up with a "picture" in the computer.

It's a freaking wonder it works at all, considering how much that can go wrong along the way... :-)



Aug 24, 2011 at 12:58 AM
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