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rprouty
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p.1 #1 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

At what size print or in what circumstances will one notice the difference in the MP increase from the 5D to the 1DsMIII? I'm sure this has been discussed many many times but I'm thinking about purchasing a 1DsMIII and wondering if it's a big jump in IQ.

My fiance said I could get the1DsMIII or a tank of gas for the van. Not sure which is more expensive..:-)

Thanks

Rod

Apr 16, 2008 at 02:21 PM

John Power
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p.1 #2 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

Your fiancee is telling you what to do!!! I thought you had to actually be married before that happened.

Apr 16, 2008 at 02:22 PM

rprouty
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p.1 #3 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

She's getting an early start.

Apr 16, 2008 at 02:24 PM

Ben Horne
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p.1 #4 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

I think you could notice it at just about any size, it just depends on how close you look. To give you an idea, the 1DsIII will give you a 12x18 at 300 ppi. Thus, a 12x18 represents a photo without any enlargement. Also, there is a difference in the shadow detail between the 1DsIII and the 5D which adds to the difference. the 1DsIII will have a cleaner file that will stand up to editing more.

Apr 16, 2008 at 02:24 PM

danmitchell
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p.1 #5 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

It really comes down to a question of what you are trying to accomplish. Perhaps a better way to phrase your question would be to tell us that and then get some comments regarding whether or not it might make a significant difference in that regard.

For example, it is virtually certain that you would not see any difference whatsoever in jpg images that you post online. I'm also quite certain that no one would see a difference between two letter size prints and I doubt that well crafted 12 x 18 prints would be different in any significant way. Beyond that it depends on the subject, the skill of the post-processor/printer, your expectations, and how large you will generally print.

It also matters a lot what lenses you have. If you have a full set of excellent lenses and will make big prints then the 1DsMKIII seems more attractive. If you do not have the lenses, getting the lenses and the 5D could be a better choice on that basis alone.

Dan

rprouty wrote:
At what size print or in what circumstances will one notice the difference in the MP increase from the 5D to the 1DsMIII? I'm sure this has been discussed many many times but I'm thinking about purchasing a 1DsMIII and wondering if it's a big jump in IQ.

My fiance said I could get the1DsMIII or a tank of gas for the van. Not sure which is more expensive..:-)

Thanks

Rod

Edited on Apr 16, 2008 at 03:14 PM

Apr 16, 2008 at 03:12 PM

Richard Nye
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p.1 #6 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

You will notice the difference immediately when you download a few dozen RAW files to your computer. Man, those 1Ds3 files must be huge!

Apr 16, 2008 at 03:25 PM

rprouty
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p.1 #7 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

Here's some of the equipment that I use..I just added a 400 DO..

This image is copyrighted by the owner

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Apr 16, 2008 at 03:30 PM

hauxon
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p.1 #8 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

Of these lenses the 24-70L will struggle with the resolution and probably the 17-40L. The others should be fine. Using the 2x extender might affect IQ enough on some of the teles to cancel out the added resolution of the 1DsIII, just a guess. ...Do you find it worthwhile to have both the 500/4 and 600/4 lenses?

Best, Hrannar

Apr 16, 2008 at 03:39 PM

Ben Horne
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p.1 #9 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

danmitchell wrote:
I doubt that well crafted 12 x 18 prints would be different in any significant way. Beyond that it depends on the subject, the skill of the post-processor/printer, your expectations, and how large you will generally print.

There is a pretty decent difference between the two at 12x18 if you look close. The 1DsIII will be at 300 ppi, and the 5D will be quite a bit less. Both will be good, but the 1DsIII will definitely hold more detail. As you mention though, it does depend on how good the lens is.

Apr 16, 2008 at 03:44 PM

cogitech
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p.1 #10 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

The 1DsIII will certainly offer more resolution (obviously) but keep in mind that you'll also need lenses that can provide that much resolution.

The 5D can do 61 lp/mm (line pairs per millimeter) and the 1DsIII can do 78 lp/mm.

Now consider that the 85L (as tested by Photozone.de) resolves 2112 LW/PH in the centre of the frame at f5.6 (it's sharpest performance).

The Imatest website tells us that LW/PH = 2 * lp/mm * (picture height in mm).

Therefore, LW/PH / 2 / (picture height in mm) = lp/mm

The XT that they test on has a picture height of 14.8 mm (according to dpreview.com).

So the 85L @f5.6, centre frame, resolves; 2112 / 2 / 14.8 = 71.35 lp/mm

Now, very few lenses can achieve "85L @ f5.6 centre sharpness" across a FF sensor. If you plug enough LW/PH numbers from various lenses into this formula, you quickly realize that even many of the Ls just barely touch the limits of the 5Ds "modest" 61 lp/mm resolution.

In fact, using the equation we discover that the "magic number" for the 5D is 1805 LW/PH (which is equivalent to 61 lp/mm) and the "magic number" for the 1DsMkIII is a whopping 2308 LW/PH.

With these numbers in mind, browse through the Photozone.de results and keep in mind that their tests "crop out" 61% of the worst portion the image circle.

So you have to ask yourself what you are really gaining by sampling these lenses at a resolution that is typically well beyond their resolving ability. You have more pixels, but how are those pixels going to coax more resolution from your lenses? In the centre of your high-end lenses there will be a benefit, and there are exceptions like the remarkable Contax Carl Zeiss 21mm f2.8 Distagon that can outresolve the 5D right to the edges, but...

Apr 16, 2008 at 04:17 PM

HenkvdT
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p.1 #11 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

Generally speaking I think you would start seeing the difference in 20x30" prints and upwards. But it all depends on what kind of prints you need/want to make and how scrutinous these will be observed. Some client/magazine may require 600 or 800 dpi for example, whilst a nice framed print on your kitchenwall can get by at 200 dpi . I can hardly spot the difference between a 12x18" from a 8MP or 12MP.

Apr 16, 2008 at 04:25 PM

brainiac
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p.1 #12 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

Hmmm. Pretty numbers, but I don't think I'm seeing that in reality. The 1Ds3, provided you use good technique, does seem to be able to out-detail the 5D a lot of the time. F8 and good lenses help, but it's amazing what a 17-40 can do at F8. Don't forget there's a culture here that a lens which can't use every pixel to the very corner of the frame is, by rights, landfill. For many photographers what matters is what you see over most of the frame, and the corners are largely irrelevant.

Also, it's not just about detail. Tone is better, maybe due to 14 bit, and I can now shoot at 1600 iso what I used to shoot at 800.

Edited on Apr 16, 2008 at 04:32 PM

Apr 16, 2008 at 04:25 PM

kdphotography
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p.1 #13 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

Your subject matter ---e.g., portraits vs. landscape---can make a huge difference whether or not more MPs matter. I find the 5D to be quite limiting with landscapes, though it is a fantastic portrait camera. For this reason, I opted to add the 1Ds Mark III, which performed flawlessly at a recent event, btw.

The most important note here is that your fiance is supportive

-----and noting your lens arsenal, I think the 1Ds Mark III is a forgone conclusion.

Have fun with your new camera!

Apr 16, 2008 at 04:48 PM

lidesun
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p.1 #14 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

Rob,

All the lens you have deserve a new 1Ds Mark III, just do it, you will be very very happy

Lide

Apr 16, 2008 at 04:54 PM

cogitech
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p.1 #15 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

I should note that I was typing that elaborate mathematical analysis meanwhile missing the shot of all your gear.

Hence, I do have to say that the 1DsIII really does seem like a good option for you. Even if the extra resolution benefits are realized mainly in the central portion, it seems to make sense based on the type of shooting that one typically does with those teles. The extra "cropability" will come in handy as well.

Apr 16, 2008 at 04:59 PM

John Power
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p.1 #16 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

Nice lenses Rod. My favorite is that 70-200 F4...

Apr 16, 2008 at 05:12 PM

Alex
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p.1 #17 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

cogitech wrote:
Now consider that the 85L (as tested by Photozone.de) resolves 2112 LW/PH in the centre of the frame at f5.6 (it's sharpest performance).

Remember that Photozone tests the lens+body combination. Rebel has only 2304 pixels on the short sensor size. This is absolutely maximal resolution the sensor could theoretically deliver. In the real life the low pass filter and Bayer algorithm will lower this number. I think that the resolution measured for the 85L reflects the sensor capabilities and not the actual lens resolution. With a better sensor it will do much better

Alex

Apr 16, 2008 at 05:13 PM

rprouty
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p.1 #18 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

John, I'm amazed at how sharp the 70-200 f/4 is. It's one of my favorite lenses.

rod

Apr 16, 2008 at 05:39 PM

rachp
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p.1 #19 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

rprouty wrote:
She's getting an early start.

Nothing wrong with that - at least you will know what to expect

Apr 16, 2008 at 06:16 PM

SoundHound
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p.1 #20 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

Print size, viewing distance, image content, ISO and lens resolving power are some of the variables that you must consider before you can expect a better print from a 21Mp vs a 12Mp sensor. Also realize that you will need more RAM and HD storage space for these files-that can mean a new computer.

I recommend that you evaluate all of these and maximize the effects of the cheapest variables before you buy an $8K camera. Example: If you shoot at or above 1600 ISO the larger pixels of the 12Mp camera can render a better image than a 21Mp sensor that must have more noise. Also if you are shooting static landscapes you may prefer multiple, merged files which can much more than double your resolution with no lens problems.

Apr 16, 2008 at 06:26 PM

EOS up North
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p.1 #21 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

rprouty wrote:
My fiance said I could get the1DsMIII

Does she have a sister?

Apr 16, 2008 at 06:33 PM

danmitchell
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p.1 #22 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

Ben Horne wrote:
danmitchell wrote:
I doubt that well crafted 12 x 18 prints would be different in any significant way. Beyond that it depends on the subject, the skill of the post-processor/printer, your expectations, and how large you will generally print.

There is a pretty decent difference between the two at 12x18 if you look close. The 1DsIII will be at 300 ppi, and the 5D will be quite a bit less. Both will be good, but the 1DsIII will definitely hold more detail. As you mention though, it does depend on how good the lens is.

No, not at 12 x 18. If you held the two prints side by side and inspected very closely - but only if you printed on certain papers - and went back and forth between them long enough my might convince yourself there was a difference, but you might just be imagining it and you would be the only person to make the selection in an A/B test.

From printing from various formats at 16 x 24 size, I'm convinced that an observant photographer would be able to distinguish between them at that size, but most buyers would not notice.

Larger than that and I think you reach a point eventually where the difference might become more obvious. But if you measure the actual difference horizontal and/or vertical pixel dimensions I think you'll see that it isn't as great as some might expect.

Dan

Apr 16, 2008 at 07:24 PM

John Power
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p.1 #23 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

So what then is the 4K premium over the 1DSMK2 paying for if what counts the most isn't really the different in the vast majority of cases?

Apr 16, 2008 at 07:32 PM

mh2000
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p.1 #24 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

I think you should turn it around. How large do you want to print? Then decide which camera will get you there.

Most printers won't even get you a real 300ppi, so you can use that to determine the max output from each camera. Personally, in my tests, FWIW *I* can't see much difference in a print once it reaches 220ppi.

Apr 16, 2008 at 07:54 PM

Micky Bill
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p.1 #25 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

John Power wrote:
So what then is the 4K premium over the 1DSMK2 paying for if what counts the most isn't really the different in the vast majority of cases?

If you go to a camera store and compare them side by side, you will see a big difference in build quality and the fact that the 1 series weighs about 3x the 5d. I also wonder if there is 4k worth of difference.

Apr 16, 2008 at 07:57 PM


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