The below includes the Monthly assignment (MA) board as well...
On the new WA/MA code (Already in testing phase), all images will be checked for EXIF and dimension automatically. Images shot outside the assignment or with wrong dimension won't be allowed to be posted. That should ensure that most participants are following the rules and these boards continue to be a valuable learning resource.
However, we need to decide what to do with images 'without' EXIF data. In some cases, software removes this info without users even knowing it. What should we do?
Please vote!
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Important - New changes to take place soon!
1) Over the years, I have been the one responsible for picking the finalists. Although most of you have voted to approve this method, many members have expressed their discontent as they would prefer that all participants were involved in this process. For this reason, the assignment winners will be now decided by you!
By automating the assignment boards, I hope to make it more dynamic by empowering you to vote for ALL entries, instead of only voting on a few images from a finalist poll (Like it is now) - more deals will be posted soon. There will be 'a lot' of code involved to make this process fair and enjoyable for everyone.
2) The old Assignment gallery will be active again!!! It will be integrated in the forums and all past assignments will be recovered (As much as possible depending on the availability of old images). So, every week, the new winners (first, second and third) will be automatically added to the new gallery and front page of the site.
3) The new system will automatically start and end assignments on time! No more delays or extensions...
4) Assignment themes will be chosen automatically from a database with hundreds of choices (Once a theme is chosen, it's removed from the database). That will ensure we always have new themes!
5) You won't need to add the assignment number to your title. It will be automatically added to the subject line with your submission. You will also be reminded of the current theme when posting your message.
6) Assignment winners will have the number of wins listed on their profile!
More features and details will be available soon...
All the best,
Fred
The EXIF thing is tricky, my sense is that most people who post shots outside the assignment dates are new and have just not read the rules as opposed to trying the "cheat."
Anyone who really wanted to cheat could edit the EXIF data anyway. What if the first time someone posts to the WA or MA board they be taken to the rules page and be required to click a button acknowleding that they have read them? Might that work?
Just a thought. But like I said, lot's of cool changes.
Greg Underwood wrote:
All very cool changes, thanks Fred.
The EXIF thing is tricky, my sense is that most people who post shots outside the assignment dates are new and have just not read the rules as opposed to trying the "cheat."
Anyone who really wanted to cheat could edit the EXIF data anyway. What if the first time someone posts to the WA or MA board they be taken to the rules page and be required to click a button acknowleding that they have read them? Might that work?
Just a thought. But like I said, lot's of cool changes.
You're welcome.
You are right. Especially since this is a learning resource instead of a prize oriented competition. That is why I will leave this decision to you guys (exif).
Editing EXIF is possible...but imo, the more checks we put in place, the better. Perhaps there are ways to detect if the exif has been edited/added. I will check on that.
You idea to give new user the rules (agree: yes/no) is great. Thanks!
Perhaps all participants (old and new) should get this info since the rules will be a little different...
Fred
Random suggestion: any chance the assignment theme could be an RSS feed? I could put it on my front page so I always have the assignment theme staring me in the face
Also, I am personally not wild about being able to vote on them all, I like having fewer options . But I will adapt!
Kevin Sherman wrote:
Nice improvements! Gonna be a blast!
Random suggestion: any chance the assignment theme could be an RSS feed? I could put it on my front page so I always have the assignment theme staring me in the face
Also, I am personally not wild about being able to vote on them all, I like having fewer options . But I will adapt!
RSS is a different project and the site will get it soon. Thanks for the suggestion.
We will make the voting process very easy.
For example: The topics you have already voted will turn gray. You will see your vote if revisiting the topic, you could change your mind, etc...
This a good thing, now we can rest assure that no one is slipping through the cracks. What software removes exif data? I know that lightroom does not, i doubt PS will so maybe a list of software that removes the exif will aid those to try not to use it if they have other options.
Good ideas, Fred. I never minded you choosing the finalist, but it did make it a dual competition. First you, then the rest of us chose. The first thing that occurs to me is that you too can compete...so, come on - join us in the competition.
EXIF data is changeable but that adds yet another layer to someone trying to falsely enter. My only concern is for those that shoot film - there are not many left. OR, if you open a new PS document, and start building a montage - there won't be any data in those photos as the background layer is blank. Lastly, there have been some software bugs that stripped the metadata, but I think most of those issues have been fixed now. IPTC data isn't as universal, and wouldn't make a good check as it is able to be edited as well. At some point we have to trust everyone to be on their honor. Mostly, in the past, it was accidental. People don't like reading the instructions for anything now days.
Good ideas, Fred. I never minded you choosing the finalist, but it did make it a dual competition. First you, then the rest of us chose. The first thing that occurs to me is that you too can compete...so, come on - join us in the competition.
I have enjoyed this task since we started. I will definitely miss it.
However, after we implement the code, I will be able to vote 'and' perhaps participate as well
EXIF data is changeable but that adds yet another layer to someone trying to falsely enter. My only concern is for those that shoot film - there are not many left. OR, if you open a new PS document, and start building a montage - there won't be any data in those photos as the background layer is blank. Lastly, there have been some software bugs that stripped the metadata, but I think most of those issues have been fixed now. IPTC data isn't as universal, and wouldn't make a good check as it is able to be edited as well. At some point we have to trust everyone to be on their honor. Mostly, in the past, it was accidental. People don't like reading the instructions for anything now days....Show more →
exif checking is always polemic. That is why I put it for voting. You guys decide!
Montages could suffer if not implemented well but I believe that for the purpose of these assignments we should not be too dependent on heavy software editing. Greg gave us a great idea: Everyone will be presented with the rules the first we post once the new code is live...
Thanks for the feedback!
This is a bit of a toughy, I know I'd like to vote for EXIF but I know I have had problems with losing EXIF data.
If I'm working on a file in Photoshop elements I usually save it as a PSD file so i can use layers and come back to it at another time, and not worry about file compression issues and also mainly so I can open it up with Paint Shop Pro (don't laugh, one can do what the other can't, and I cant afford CS) and still save it as a PSD file. The problem I've found here is that PSP wont recognise the EXIF data, and if I save it as a PSD it will lose the EXIF data. Bit of a pain.......
Guess I need to just be a bit more disicplined as to how I do things...
The other thing is people could still abuse the EXIF data if they really wanted to. All they need to do is set the date and time on the camera, take a picture, open it up and paste another image on top and save it.
All in all it's not really bullet proof checking system, but then I doubt the number of people who would go to these lengths are minimal, and I think if it imporves the forum and makes sure people abide by the rules then it's a good thing.
Plus I also like downloading the images and interrogating the EXIF file myself: I'm still on a learning curve and looking at how people have captured certain images and what shot conditions they have used are very useful in the learning process.
So I think I'll vote "YES" to only allowing pics with EXIF data.
The other mods look good!
Keep up the good work Fred! It's much appreciated
Andy
Edited by af120835 on Jul 03, 2008 at 09:09 PM GMT
All wonderful ideas, Fred! I think they will bring a whole new level of interest to the WA I do agree with James about the EXIF data being a problem with a montage, athough you may prefer that no montages be built for the WA. My 3rd place win a few weeks back for the topic "Distorted", where I shot new photos of my Strad and cut them up and twisted them about was a montage like that, though. From the lopsided voting it all seems like a moot point. I look forward to the new rules being in place.
By the way, when is the next assignment going up?
All best wishes,
Endre
PS - What if someone wants to post up other photos along with their entry - say, for instance, a shot of how the photo was set up. I've always found those to be particularly interesting and helpful. Would one still be able to post additional photos on an existing thread?
As a long standing contributor let me take this opportunity to say thanks for a very enjoyable assignment. As for the changes I think they are well though out. Personally I am for the EXIF check, I always thought it was a bias against people who submitted photos with EXIF embedded. Even though it is manipulatable, you would be deliberately doing so in, and I dont see people here with that frame of mind. But this way a lot of persons new around here would have their mistakes corrected upfront. Also like the changes of automatic submissions and specially the automatic cutoffs and new themes.
Am ambivalent towards the changes to opening the voting to all images. Quite like the 2 stage method. Sometime you know you don't hear from people when they like things, and you only hear from people who don't like the way things are. This might be one of the times where the majority like the old two stage voting. The only thought as far as voting on all would be
- it should be easy to navigate and see all images. It could get quite tedious in those instances when there have been a large number of submissions
- the sort order of the images put up for voting should be random. People who submit first will have an advantage, as it is human to prefer things which they see earlier in line
This project seems quite complex and I am sure you have a battery of coders ready to go to work. Would be willing to help if possible. Am sure others would to. Maybe open source the whole thing
Fred,
I joined last october so am a relative newby here. I joined because i saw an oportunity to improve my photography (and boy did it need it). I have tried to enter as many Wa`s as i could unless work got in the way. I have never looked at anyones exif and am not likely too. I dont care if a picture is from the wrong time frame if its better than mine it should get the vote. If someone does break the rules by editing their exif then they are only lying to themselves. The automatic start and finish date are great and i like the idea of the new themes. I personally like the choice you make for the finals and prefer the system you have now ( even when i havnt got through it ). Hows this for a controversial idea, remove all voting and just let us comment on other peoples pictures. Maybe if the compertition part is removed people wont be so worried about the exif data etc. Thanks for trying to please a lot of people ,its not easy. All i can say is that i think ive improved a lot over the last 9 months and that is in no small way due to the wa and its contributors. I may not have come first or even second but the prize of learning is so much more of a reward.
Take care,
Mark
Well, I voted for requiring EXIF data in the images, and was shocked to see how lopsided the vote is going so far. You can still make montages with EXIF data if you do it correctly...just start with your primary image as the base.
This may have been suggested - but in case it hasn't - I think you should define the purpose of the MA and WA assignments. If I understand it correctly. The "assignment" is to create new images within the alloted time frame based upon a topic.
The purpose is: (This is just my opinion)
1-To get photographers out actively creating new images.
2-To sharpen photographers skills through competition.
3-To deepen the photographers understanding of light, their camera, software, composition, and to put thought into the images they create.
4-To fan the flames of passion concerning photography by participating in the assignments.
There are likely more purposes, but that is a start. If you think about how you have excelled at many things in life - I think you will likely find a pattern. As a boy, when I wanted to learn tennis - I always picked someone better than me to play. In fact, in every endeavor; I tried to find people more knowledgeable, or skilled than I was - then tried to make their strengths my own, and to surpass them - if possible.
The purpose is: (This is just my opinion) 1-To get photographers out actively creating new images. 2-To sharpen photographers skills through competition. 3-To deepen the photographers understanding of light, their camera, software, composition, and to put thought into the images they create. 4-To fan the flames of passion concerning photography by participating in the assignments.
I'm sure many share your opinion including myself. That is the essence.
Could I use parts of your text when creating the new guidelines?
Iam defiantly for having EXIF data sdata shown but when I edit my raws in photoshop and save for web it doesnt save the data is there a way for saving the EXIF data after editing the raw and saving it? If so then I am in.
