Me And The Law Again

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therock
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p.1 #1 · Me And The Law Again

First it's a drunk on a Harley. He wound up giving me a $815.00 check for a tiny dent in my truck.

Second was a drug bust a sheriff seen me snapping away and attempted to stop my progress but I managed to act as if I didn't see them.

This, yesterday I was shooting an auto accident scene from a good distance and a Sheriff's and an EMRT yelled something and both proceeded to get my tag number. Geeeeesh! I was well out of the way and parker legally in all cases.

So,,,, I pull in to get it over with and was asked why I was taking pictures. I replied because I can. He was stuck. While he stammered I took the opportunity to ask what was wrong with that. "Well you just don't do that". I asked why? He made something ridiculous up. He then went on to say when we see it we obtain the photographers info and pass it on the highway patrol. He said he would prefer I approached and asked first.

So I went in to the OK officer mode and went on my way.

I called the GHP this AM and was forwarded to the Legal department and given no reason I could not take oictures but could be detained if the officer believed I was obstructing an investigation. When I mentioned the County officer said they always get the photog's info and pass it on to GHP it was the first they heard of it.

So I don't know what to do now. I'm sure I am the talk around the water fountain. So I'll be wary for a while.

Jul 09, 2008 at 04:07 PM

Taylor Barrett
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p.1 #2 · Me And The Law Again

All I have to say is don't push it. You may have the right to photograph that accident, but as far as I'm concerned you don't need to so you would be best off just staying away in the future.

Jul 09, 2008 at 06:18 PM

mbaumser
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p.1 #3 · Me And The Law Again

As long as you're not interfering or getting in the way, then snap away.

If they ask questions and you're up for answering, then answer.

It really sickens me this concept of letting blue shirts with badges (or brown shirts with arm bands) defacto take away your rights. Whether you "need" to or just want to, you were far enough away from the scene (based on your description) to not be in the way of their police work. Know your rights and use them. Not just for photography but everything in life.

Marc

Jul 09, 2008 at 06:57 PM

polarbare
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p.1 #4 · Me And The Law Again

Jul 09, 2008 at 07:16 PM

Genes Home
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p.1 #5 · Me And The Law Again

1. Stay out of the way, don't put yourself in any way in close or in such a mode as to be interpreted as "impeding emergency operations." You already seem to be in compliance with that.

2. Be polite and respectful. Those guys are under a lot of pressure. If you have a reasonable answer (e.g., free-lancing), and appear to understand their situation, the problem (in my experience) almost always goes away.

3. Take all the photos you wish.

4. If you want to be really sneaky, send a letter to the legal office in the GHP that you talked to (a NICE letter) thanking them for their assistance and support and asking them to amplify their position on non-interference photography for free-lance and public use. Put the original of their answer in your files. Make multiple copies and keep them with you. Hand out as appropriate.

Jul 09, 2008 at 07:25 PM

Sam tran
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p.1 #6 · Me And The Law Again

All I have to say is don't push it.
I know it's tough when we have to face an intimidate force, but sometime we have to do what is right for others, not just for ourselves. +1 vote and hat off to you - Therock.

Sam

Jul 09, 2008 at 07:27 PM

Micky Bill
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p.1 #7 · Me And The Law Again

If they want to detain you, they will and sort it out later. It probably depends on you and the mood of the cop, you usually won't win a streetside argument with a cop, but knowing your rights is a good thing.

I guess if you like to take pics of car accidents, the reaction of the people who are working the accident is something you will have to deal with

Jul 09, 2008 at 08:03 PM

CTYankee
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p.1 #8 · Me And The Law Again

In the long run you will prevail...however at what cost if you tangle with one of the ego driven "I'm the law and you better do what I say" police officers? There are too many that let their own personal opinion drive their actions and that can mean a huge headache for you (figuratively...I hope). So its best to make sure you have a few trump cards in your pocket. The suggestion to write a very polite and professional letter to the appropriate authority, copy and travel with the reply is a very good one. That way you know exactly what to do and if approached you have his/her boss's, boss's, boss backing you up.

Jul 09, 2008 at 09:54 PM

therock
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p.1 #9 · Me And The Law Again

Thanks Guys,

The images are not so important as the lack of understanding on a law enforcement officer's behalf of my rights as a citizen with a camera.

As for my motive, I am 55 years old and can retire soon and want to do something I like for a keep active thing that may supplement my income.

Jul 09, 2008 at 09:57 PM

CTYankee
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p.1 #10 · Me And The Law Again

therock wrote:
Thanks Guys,

The images are not so important as the lack of understanding on a law enforcement officer's behalf of my rights as a citizen with a camera.

As for my motive, I am 55 years old and can retire soon and want to do something I like for a keep active thing that may supplement my income.

Have you considered going the other way with the relationship? Take some photos that are more artistic of the cars, rescue vehicles, people and then print them up and drop them off with a 'thanks for the service, thought you might like these' note? You obviously don't want to stalk these guys, but if you can think of some way to get photos they will like it will establish you as a friendly guy with a camera who appreciates them vs the suspicious character with a camera that they seem to see you as. Sure not everyone will know you, but as you said, you may become water cooler chat but in a positive way.

Jul 10, 2008 at 03:31 AM

liza
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p.1 #11 · Me And The Law Again

Why would you want to photograph other people's misfortunes? Do you work for the media? Just curious.

Jul 10, 2008 at 04:33 AM

C.L.Johnston
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p.1 #12 · Me And The Law Again

Whatever happened to the US constitution?

Jul 10, 2008 at 05:55 AM

therock
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p.1 #13 · Me And The Law Again

@CTYankee I like it! Good one I'll be on it.

@liza Not really fond of gloom and doom but am addicted to human life events good or bad and in a candid way only. So toss sporting events in my line also.
As a child I was always fascinated with Time and Look magazines. This was the Vietnam and hippy era's to name two. It's been in my blood that long.

Even doom and gloom has a story. Go
to this LA fires link and see what I mean.

Thanks Guys

Jul 10, 2008 at 10:22 AM

jvarszegi
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p.1 #14 · Me And The Law Again

Micky Bill wrote:
If they want to detain you, they will and sort it out later.

That's the problem. It's my understanding that a police of detaining all photographers is unconstitutional, because they would have to have at least reasonable suspicion to do so. Good luck to the OP getting evidence that would hold up in court that that's what's happening, though. The one cop was likely just talking out of his a$$.

Jul 10, 2008 at 10:36 AM

mbaumser
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p.1 #15 · Me And The Law Again

C.L.Johnston wrote:
Whatever happened to the US constitution?

The what??

Jul 10, 2008 at 12:32 PM

nathanlake
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p.1 #16 · Me And The Law Again

While I fully support your right to take the images you describe, your flip response to the cop (Because I can) appears to demonstrate an attitude that will continue to cause you problems. First, any time you are taking pictures of a accident or news worthy event, you are likely to be questioned. That is just how it goes. You would be better off telling the cop that photography is a hobby of yours and you hope to sell the picture to the newspaper. Most cops will fully understand that. If you take pictures of a fire, I promise you you will be questioned since many arsonists take pictures of their work. Second, you don't have to be breaking the law for the police to make your life uncomfortable. Take my word for this, you don't want antagonzie the police. You can scream about your rights all you want...you are better off humoring the police than pissing them off.

As you pointed out in the OP, you now need to be wary. This is your own doing.

Edited on Jul 10, 2008 at 05:53 PM

Jul 10, 2008 at 05:53 PM

BubbaJon
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p.1 #17 · Me And The Law Again

nathanlake wrote:
If you take pictures of a fire, I promise you you will be questioned since many arsonists take pictures of their work.
Huh!!! I never heard that before. Is this part of a standard "profile" of arsonists? Not to get too OT but I wonder what other behavioral factors cops are aware of that we aren't that may be causing these sorts of confrontations. Might be good info to know so you can be prepared for the questioning.
regards,
Jon

Jul 10, 2008 at 08:04 PM

nathanlake
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p.1 #18 · Me And The Law Again

BubbaJon wrote:
nathanlake wrote:
If you take pictures of a fire, I promise you you will be questioned since many arsonists take pictures of their work.
Huh!!! I never heard that before. Is this part of a standard "profile" of arsonists? Not to get too OT but I wonder what other behavioral factors cops are aware of that we aren't that may be causing these sorts of confrontations. Might be good info to know so you can be prepared for the questioning.
regards,
Jon

If you have the chance to go to a large fire that could even possibly have been started intentionally, watch for the person filming the crowd. This is a common practice among large fire and police departments in order to capture the arsonist on tape as he watches his work.

Jul 10, 2008 at 08:07 PM

therock
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p.1 #19 · Me And The Law Again

@nathanlake I can understand your remarks. My tone of voice was not as you may think it to have been. It was in a nervous/humor way. I'll keep your remarks in mind, thanks.

Update,
I got a return call from from the County Sheriff. He knows of me as I was married to his Cousin meeting him only once.
He says it's legal but peaks his officers curiosity and they have as much right to question me as I to take pictures. He reminded me that I pulled over to talk to them and they did not detain me and only asked for ID. I agreed. He suggested I approach first out of courtesy. We went into all kinds of ways it can make their job harder but I was never told not to continue as usual.

About the comment how they get the contact info of any one they see photographing a accident or crime scene.

One example is if I shot an accident and left the scene before the investigating trooper arrives. If the time between me leaving and he showing up the vehicles are moved or another vehicle gets involved, and it effects the investigation I may be contacted and asked to help. The same more or less at an arrest scene.

We parted in a good way.

Below is a shot from my truck window going about 20mph through the intersection. It's perfect how the gents in cuffs faces were not showing.
One guy was on his bicycle in the middle of the intersection and commented on a girls breasts as she sat in the car waiting for the green light. The boyfriend passenger gets out and they go at it hard. A Sheriff was at the intersection and intervened.

Jul 10, 2008 at 11:20 PM

pappawheely
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p.1 #20 · Me And The Law Again

Have you considered going the other way with the relationship? Take some photos that are more artistic of the cars, rescue vehicles, people and then print them up and drop them off with a 'thanks for the service, thought you might like these' note?

Great, another free photographer.

Jul 11, 2008 at 07:04 AM

Emile Gregoire
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p.1 #21 · Me And The Law Again

pappawheely wrote:
Have you considered going the other way with the relationship? Take some photos that are more artistic of the cars, rescue vehicles, people and then print them up and drop them off with a 'thanks for the service, thought you might like these' note?

Great, another free photographer.

Nope, building a relationship with the people who were not buying images anyway to make sure you can earn money from a source that will.

I sometimes give away some images to people that were not about to buy them and in the end I frequently wind up getting business out of it because when they need a photog or when asked by a third if they know a photog, they'll think of me. I can really recommend it.

Edited on Jul 11, 2008 at 09:39 AM

Jul 11, 2008 at 09:38 AM

mbaumser
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p.1 #22 · Me And The Law Again

therock wrote:[snip]
He reminded me that I pulled over to talk to them and they did not detain me and only asked for ID

I missed the fact that in the original post you pulled over to them.

While everything I and others have written previously about defending our rights as citizens still holds true, in rereading this it does seem that a) at no time did anyone try and stop you. So it's much ado about nothing and b) you did actively approach them during police activity which could easily be misconstrued as interfering with their work.

all in all it seems to me the incident comes under the category of
"no harm, no foul"

Jul 11, 2008 at 02:52 PM

dmacmillan
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p.1 #23 · Me And The Law Again

As much as I hate to advocate collusion with ambulance chasers, if you have a lawyer friend you might talk to them about getting one of their business cards. Legal photography could be a viable supplemental income producer when you retire. An association with an attorney would help legitimize your photography of accidents.

I think it boils down to whether you want to get in a pissing match with the constabulary over your constitutional rights or whether you want to create a relationship with them which may ultimately be to your advantage.

Law enforcement have been trained to treat your kind of photography activity as suspicious. You and I think this is ludicrous. Remember these are working Joes and your activity only adds another layer of complication to an already stressful job.

BTW, I'm a little bit older than you and have been photographed by the FBI for taking pictures at a Spiro Agnew protest rally. I'm sure there's a file on me somewhere.

Doug

Jul 11, 2008 at 03:25 PM

CTYankee
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p.1 #24 · Me And The Law Again

pappawheely wrote:
CTYankee wrote:
Have you considered going the other way with the relationship? Take some photos that are more artistic of the cars, rescue vehicles, people and then print them up and drop them off with a 'thanks for the service, thought you might like these' note?

Great, another free photographer.

Oi vey...Ever heard of PR or advertising? I'm not suggesting he give a copy of the town police car to every guy in the department, just something to build a relationship. These guys do have a lot of events and opportunities for work and you never know.

I don't work for free that is certain. I do know when to extend and olive branch to further my cause (wether that be not getting hassled by the police here or making new clients....or both as he may find eventually). So to simply dismiss it with a condescending comment is very short sighted.

Photography is all about relationships. If people have to pay you just to start that relationship you won't see nearly as much opportunity.

Edited on Jul 11, 2008 at 03:27 PM

Jul 11, 2008 at 03:26 PM

tomhh
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p.1 #25 · Me And The Law Again

Just have a business card made up.
Put your name, address, phone number and the word 'photographer' on it.
Introduce yourself to the cop when he gets into your face, smile, hand him the card and tell him you will stay out of his way.
I bet that will almost always take care of the situation

Jul 11, 2008 at 07:19 PM


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