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liamh
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p.1 #1 · The Swimmer

Is my nephew. He swims like a man drowning

This is my first post in the sports section, I'm normally found posting in the people forum. C&C welcome, no need to hold back

May 05, 2008 at 06:32 PM

Scott Sewell
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p.1 #2 · The Swimmer

I'd say if he swims "like a man drowning", you've nailed this shot!

Honestly, without any context of what he's doing it does just like the little guy is drowning; there is nothing in the photo that tells us he is swimming.

Shooting tight is one thing, but an image can also be so tight that it looses all sense of context. IMO, that's what has happened here.

Any other shots from this meet you'd care to share?

Edited on May 05, 2008 at 06:59 PM

May 05, 2008 at 06:46 PM

liamh
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p.1 #3 · The Swimmer

Scott Sewell wrote:
I'd say if he swims "like a man drowning", you've nailed this shot!

May 05, 2008 at 07:23 PM

DukeK
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p.1 #4 · The Swimmer

All he meant is that there is nothing to distinguish this picture from a swimmer racing vs some kid messing around in the pool. Was the shot cropped or were you in that tight?

Edited on May 05, 2008 at 07:34 PM

May 05, 2008 at 07:33 PM

PShizzy
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p.1 #5 · The Swimmer

Liam,

Without context, we can't define this as sport so much as candid. I believe what Scott asks is not unreasonable for a sports corner post.

Also, for photography, the quick tip is this: context = background. It's not an absolute, but details in the background often place the image in context for us.

Another thought: shooting tight is subjective and not always a function of the lens used. I've used fisheye lenses and shot tight despite having a full 180 degree FOV. I've also used a 400 2.8 for a group shot and and that was somewhat loose (since we have to print at 8x10,4x6,5x7, etc).

I hope you don't take Scotts comment the wrong way, nor my own.

Max

May 05, 2008 at 07:40 PM

liamh
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p.1 #6 · The Swimmer

DukeK wrote:
All he meant is that there is nothing to distinguish this picture from a swimmer racing vs some kid messing around in the pool. Was the shot cropped or were you in that tight?

That's the full frame, edge to edge. Why is that a problem? I explained it was a shot of my nephew, who is not a great swimmer.

May 05, 2008 at 08:09 PM

liamh
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p.1 #7 · The Swimmer

PShizzy wrote:
Liam,

Without context, we can't define this as sport so much as candid. I believe what Scott asks is not unreasonable for a sports corner post.

Also, for photography, the quick tip is this: context = background. It's not an absolute, but details in the background often place the image in context for us.

Another thought: shooting tight is subjective and not always a function of the lens used. I've used fisheye lenses and shot tight despite having a full 180 degree FOV. I've also used a 400 2.8 for a group shot and and that was somewhat loose (since we have to print at 8x10,4x6,5x7, etc).

I hope you don't take Scotts comment the wrong way, nor my own.

Max

I gave the context in the OP. I also know what 'context' means and how lenses work, I'm not so sure how this particular forum works, but I'll try and learn.

And yes shooting tight is subjective, that's why I did it!

FYI, this was not a 'candid', it required two remote flashes and quite a lot of lying down on my belly, but equally it was not the Olympics either

May 05, 2008 at 08:18 PM

James Broome
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p.1 #8 · The Swimmer

I have to agree with the others here, Liam. It's a neat shot, but not necessarily an action/sports shot. You telling us it is isn't the same as showing us, just as you giving us the context in the OP isn't the same as putting it in the photo.

You have knowledge of the picture that the viewer does not. As such, maybe you're seeing things we're not seeing. We're not seeing them because they aren't there. You told us it was a swim meet, but as already stated by a few others, nothing in the picture tells us this. There is no difference between that image and an image of someone playing in a pool - or worse yet - drowning.

Show his stroke. Show line ropes. Show something that puts us there and keeps us from having to 'ask' what the picture is of.

May 05, 2008 at 08:41 PM

DustinFinn
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p.1 #9 · The Swimmer

I agree with the others, what I find more frustrating than the image is how you asked for people to not hold back about their comments but now comment on how you dont agree.

My comments on the photo are:

a. Eye is almost dead center (not for me)
2. Its an up the nose shot (not really doing anything)
c. Really shiney (looks blown out) spot above the eye is distracting/weird to me.

I would have prefered what the posters have suggested, I'd like to see more about this moment you've captured here...

Edited on May 05, 2008 at 08:55 PM

May 05, 2008 at 08:55 PM

liamh
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p.1 #10 · The Swimmer

James Broome wrote:
You have knowledge of the picture that the viewer does not. As such, maybe you're seeing things we're not seeing.

Mmm, I think the reverse is true. You guys are looking for things that are not there. They are not there because they are not meant to be.

James Broome wrote:You told us it was a swim meet

No I didn't. Perhaps that is where the confusion is coming from. I thought swimming was a sport, but as this picture is not from a 'meet' it may not conform to what you guys consider a sport picture. This is a simple shot of boy fighting his way through the water as much as he is swimming through it.

May 05, 2008 at 09:01 PM

liamh
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p.1 #11 · The Swimmer

DustinFinn wrote:
I agree with the others, what I find more frustrating than the image is how you asked for people to not hold back about their comments but now comment on how you dont agree.

My comments on the photo are:

a. Eye is almost dead center (not for me)
2. Its an up the nose shot (not really doing anything)
c. Really shiney (looks blown out) spot above the eye is distracting/weird to me.

I would have prefered what the posters have suggested, I'd like to see more about this moment you've captured here...

I have absolutely no problem with any of the comments made thus far. None whatsoever. I'm sorry you're frustrated but there's no law that says I have to agree with any of the comments.

I don't have a problem with the composition though I do agree it's up his nose, if you have a better angle with which to portray this shot I'm all ears

As for the blown highlights, again I like these in this context because along with the high shutter it lends a metallic quality to the water which contrasts with the boy making him appear even more vulnerable in the water.

May 05, 2008 at 09:15 PM

Skipper1613
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p.1 #12 · The Swimmer

Liam,

The shot is an awesome shot very well done, lighting, stopping the action and showing what you intended. I don't feel that any one was trashing your shot but rather trying to provide valid C&C for the sports forum. You did state: "This is my first post in the sports section, I'm normally found posting in the people forum. C&C welcome, no need to hold back."

As mentioned in the previous post if you backed up and got the lane ropes, his stroke or another swimmer in the shot that he was racing against it would give it more of sense that there was some competition or sport going on here.

There are some very good sports shooters here and they do provide very good C & C for sports photography. They may be better at giving you the hard, straight C & C than sugar coating it, then you did say "no need to hold back" too.

Again it's a very cool shot, maybe not so much of a sports shot though as posted.

Edited on May 05, 2008 at 09:17 PM

May 05, 2008 at 09:15 PM

liamh
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p.1 #13 · The Swimmer

Skipper1613 wrote:
Liam,

The shot is an awesome shot very well done, lighting, stopping the action and showing what you intended. I don't feel that any one was trashing your shot but rather trying to provide valid C&C for the sports forum. You did state: "This is my first post in the sports section, I'm normally found posting in the people forum. C&C welcome, no need to hold back."

As mentioned in the previous post if you backed up and got the lane ropes, his stroke or another swimmer in the shot that he was racing against it would give it more of sense that there was some competition or sport going on here.

There are some very good sports shooters here and they do provide very good C & C for sports photography. They may be better at giving you the hard, straight C & C than sugar coating it, then you did say "no need to hold back" too.

Again it's a very cool shot, maybe not so much of a sports shot though as posted.

Thanks Skipper,

Just to repeat, I've got no problem with any of the comments and I'd much rather people gave it to me hard and straight (maybe I should rewrite that bit!).

I can see from people's responses that Sports corner is more for organized sports and particularly for touchline shooters. I've got heaps of shots that conform to those guidelines, perhaps tomorrow I'll try again

Regards all,

Liam.

May 05, 2008 at 09:25 PM

forrest5000
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p.1 #14 · The Swimmer

Hi Liam,
Keep them coming, that is a great shot as is the work you post on the people board.
Not sure it says "swimming" to me, but you've got that from the rest of them at this stage

John

May 05, 2008 at 09:43 PM

liamh
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p.1 #15 · The Swimmer

Thanks John,

It's not a stroke you'll see in Beijing this summer

May 05, 2008 at 10:00 PM

rbranan
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p.1 #16 · The Swimmer

Great shot! is he left handed? btw, you must be old if you remember who mark spitz was.

Edited on May 05, 2008 at 11:19 PM

May 05, 2008 at 11:15 PM

Tony Masone
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p.1 #17 · The Swimmer

Liam, at first glance it does look like a swim meet shot of a boy swimming the backstroke and usually I will shoot more strait on from the end of the lane and get full face shots as they pull away from me, but in reading your posts, this was not taken at a swim meet so it would not be fair to C&C the pic based on that. That would be the usual on this board. Your pic quality is great along with color against the water. I have seen your postings on the people forum so I know your work is quality. This pic is different even though it may not say swimmer on it. Keep them coming.

Tony

May 06, 2008 at 01:17 AM

Tony Brown
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p.1 #18 · The Swimmer

i agree with the first postings....for all we know, this was taken in a kiddy pool in the yard with rubber duckies floating around. or some kid just falling / thrown into the pool or whatevet.

liamh, you did become very defensive with your comments.

May 06, 2008 at 03:11 AM

P Alesse
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p.1 #19 · The Swimmer

My problem is not with the composition nor the context. For what it is, it's a portrait showing one of the cool effects water can play. Plus, we have a good facial expression.

I do however, however have a problem with the lighting. It has a real flashed look to it, which doesn't work in this context. I really see evidence of a photo shot several stops under the ambient and letting the flash try to light the scene. It's not working for me here. Were the flashes bounced at all?

May 06, 2008 at 03:46 AM

rbranan
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p.1 #20 · The Swimmer

"It's not a stroke you'll see in Beijing this summer"

so not backstroke? well what a perplexing shot-it is kinda of harsh on second look. however, parents must be happy with it. no goggles? tough on the eyes.

May 06, 2008 at 05:15 AM

liamh
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p.1 #21 · The Swimmer

Thanks rbranan, yes I am old, perhaps I should have said Ian Thorpe!

Tony Masone, thanks for your comments, it's a first post on the Sports forum but I'm beginning to understand the way things work in here.

Tony Brown, there's nothing wrong with being defensive it's when folk are offensive that I have a problem and since no one here has been offensive, I don't have a problem. Thanks for looking nonetheless.

P Alesse, you're right about my intention for this shot and you've nailed how it was shot. The flash wasn't bounced, sorry it doesn't quite work for you.

Edited on May 06, 2008 at 07:31 AM

May 06, 2008 at 07:07 AM

rbranan
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p.1 #22 · The Swimmer

dude, ian thorpe is out now too. try michael phelps. time passes quickly

May 06, 2008 at 03:21 PM

liamh
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p.1 #23 · The Swimmer

rbranan wrote:
dude, ian thorpe is out now too. try michael phelps. time passes quickly

Yeah, I know. Mark Foster's closer to my age though

May 06, 2008 at 03:39 PM

James Broome
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p.1 #24 · The Swimmer

liamh wrote:
James Broome wrote:
You have knowledge of the picture that the viewer does not. As such, maybe you're seeing things we're not seeing.

Mmm, I think the reverse is true. You guys are looking for things that are not there. They are not there because they are not meant to be.

James Broome wrote:You told us it was a swim meet

No I didn't. Perhaps that is where the confusion is coming from. I thought swimming was a sport, but as this picture is not from a 'meet' it may not conform to what you guys consider a sport picture. This is a simple shot of boy fighting his way through the water as much as he is swimming through it.

I agree. Perhaps we're all looking for what we're all used to seeing in a swimming picture. However, as you stated, this *isn't* from a swim meet - so those things weren't there. I'm fairly certain you're exactly right - we're assuming the picture is from a competition. I was, anyway.

May 06, 2008 at 05:29 PM

Scott Sewell
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p.1 #25 · The Swimmer

Scott Sewell wrote:
I'd say if he swims "like a man drowning", you've nailed this shot!

Looks like I should have kept my original post in this thread to those two simple sentences.

I assumed that since this was on the Sports Corner offering C&C (as the OP specifically asked for) that related to sports photography was okay. As is often the case, “assuming” anything is usually a bad idea.

IMO the kid literally looks like he's drowning. This could easily be on the front page of a newspaper somewhere with a caption, "John E. Smith, 9, struggles for air as he nearly drowns Tuesday afternoon in the Roselawn Swimming Pool. After retrieving Smith from the bottom of the pool, paramedics and rescue workers performed CPR on Smith for nearly 30 minutes before successful reviving him." If that were the case, I'd say this is a great shot...it really shows that the kid is struggling to stay afloat and making every effort to make what might be his last breath. However, as a sports photo, it doesn’t work for me.

I've got tough skin, so if someone doesn't like my reaction, suggestions or "take" on an image, I'm fine with that. Life would be awfully boring if we all agreed on everything.

But it seems interesting that someone specifically says, "C&C welcome, no need to hold back” then reacts as we’ve seen in this thread. I guarantee I’m not headed over to the People Forum to creat a thread, ask for C&C, then argue with those who might take time out of their day to offer such. I really don't care if someone doesn't agree with my C&C, but it would be nice to know it could be made without having to worry about someone wanting to argue about it. Based on my experience and perspective, I offered my opinion. Simple as that.

That’s enough from me in this thread.

Edited on May 06, 2008 at 08:15 PM

May 06, 2008 at 08:11 PM


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