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mark70x70 Offline Image Upload: On p.1 #1 · Moonrise at Sunset (Bandon) Moonrise at Sunset, Bandon Oregon. As I was taking this image, some guy who did not have success selling his landscape images out of a gallery in Las Vegas, was trying to tell me why I could not be a successful professional landscape photographer owning my own gallery(s). Tip: don't ask (or listen to) unsuccessful people for their advice on how or what can be accomplished in this world. If you want to know what can be done, go ask someone who has an awesome attitude and is inspiringly successful doing what you want to do. Our nspiration is your responsability. Ken Duncan has been the latter for me. Dec 22, 2007 at 08:58 AM

cjac Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #2 · Moonrise at Sunset (Bandon) Mihail wrote: How will they determine am I commercial photographer or just an amateur with nice camera? I've had to leave my 1Ds2 in the car to avoid a 50 US$ 'commercial photography fee' once (in Belize !). My 20D and - after negotiating - my 70-200 f/2.8 were allowed in ... So they just looked at the camera : if it is big, you have to pay. Cedric Dec 22, 2007 at 10:55 PM

Mihail Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #3 · Moonrise at Sunset (Bandon) How will they determine am I commercial photographer or just an amateur with nice camera? Dec 22, 2007 at 10:29 PM

nathanlake Offline Image Upload: On p.1 #4 · Moonrise at Sunset (Bandon) jakita33 wrote: According to the articles it appears fees will only be charged for "commercial" photography. I imagine that would exclude a lot of people on these boards, and I am sure the smart ones who do some "commercial" work could find a way around it as well. I disagree. A large number of people here do commercial photography. Not sure how many do it in national parks though. Dec 22, 2007 at 10:17 PM

ajkessler Online Buy and Sell: On p.1 #5 · Moonrise at Sunset (Bandon) This sounds like the same bill that everyone was griping about last year. Was that defeated/never moved on or is this a new bill entirely? In any case, sounds like a non-issue for 95% of folks here. At the same time, its fascinating to see how many times the government can charge us again for what we already pay for. This quote sums it up nicely: "It’s just another way for the government to take what’s already ours and try to sell it back to us" Dec 22, 2007 at 08:08 PM

nathanlake Offline Image Upload: On p.1 #6 · Moonrise at Sunset (Bandon) ajkessler wrote: This sounds like the same bill that everyone was griping about last year. Was that defeated/never moved on or is this a new bill entirely? In any case, sounds like a non-issue for 95% of folks here. At the same time, its fascinating to see how many times the government can charge us again for what we already pay for. This quote sums it up nicely: "It’s just another way for the government to take what’s already ours and try to sell it back to us" I think the one last year was the City of New York. Dec 22, 2007 at 10:16 PM

jakita33 Offline Buy and Sell: On p.1 #7 · Moonrise at Sunset (Bandon) According to the articles it appears fees will only be charged for "commercial" photography. I imagine that would exclude a lot of people on these boards, and I am sure the smart ones who do some "commercial" work could find a way around it as well. Dec 22, 2007 at 07:55 PM

nathanlake Offline Image Upload: On p.1 #8 · Moonrise at Sunset (Bandon) I am surprised this story has not been discussed here. The Department of Interior is finalizing plans to charge fees for photography in the US National Parks. PDN story http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/newswire/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003684366 Syndicated story http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2007/E7-15845.htm National Press Photogrphers Association story http://www.nppa.org/news_and_events/news/2007/12/parks02.html Proposed Rules http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2007/E7-15845.htm Dec 22, 2007 at 07:43 PM

nathanlake Offline Image Upload: On p.1 #9 · Moonrise at Sunset (Bandon) cjac wrote: Mihail wrote: How will they determine am I commercial photographer or just an amateur with nice camera? I've had to leave my 1Ds2 in the car to avoid a 50 US$ 'commercial photography fee' once (in Belize !). My 20D and - after negotiating - my 70-200 f/2.8 were allowed in ... So they just looked at the camera : if it is big, you have to pay. Cedric Hopefully the Park Service will do somthing better than looking at the size of your camera, but you never know. And after all, as we all know, size does matter. Dec 23, 2007 at 12:16 AM

Johnny Bravo Offline Image Upload: On p.1 #10 · Moonrise at Sunset (Bandon) ajkessler wrote: This sounds like the same bill that everyone was griping about last year. Was that defeated/never moved on or is this a new bill entirely? In any case, sounds like a non-issue for 95% of folks here. At the same time, its fascinating to see how many times the government can charge us again for what we already pay for. This quote sums it up nicely: "It’s just another way for the government to take what’s already ours and try to sell it back to us" Nonsense. The public owns the parks, and charging reasonble fees for those who use our parks is entirely reasonable and just represents good stewardship. This is particularly true in the case of those who put public assets to commercial use. Dec 23, 2007 at 02:59 AM

Paratima Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #11 · Moonrise at Sunset (Bandon) I like Johnny's approach to this. We need rules to govern use of public lands and those who profit from commercial use should be willing to pay. On the other hand, our fine government seems to take many attempts to get anything really right. I wouldn't object to most of what I've read about this, providing that they make the rules sufficiently clear. When I go for a shoot, I don't mind filing forms and paying reasonable fees, but I draw the line at having to take a lawyer with me. It would certainly be nice if the rules were made uniform. And Belize, beautiful though it is, is NOT administered by the U.S. Park Service. Dec 23, 2007 at 03:19 AM

jcw1982 Offline Buy and Sell: On p.1 #12 · Moonrise at Sunset (Bandon) I think user fees are a good thing. Dec 23, 2007 at 03:47 AM

Lowbyte Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #13 · Moonrise at Sunset (Bandon) In general mosts parks I've seen that charge for "commercial photo permits/use fees" are not based on a pro camera. It is based on use of props, models, assistants, access to non-public areas or anything that might somehow require other visitors to be detoured or require park personnel to oversee. Here is a short report on the committee hearing where the Dept of the Interior was told to go clarify their proposed rules and come back to congress. http://www.photoattorney.com/2007/12/report-on-hearing-for-proposed.html Glad to see my membership dollars at work Write your congress critter and those on the committee- let them know you are watching. Now I'm not saying there won't be rangers who overstep / misinterpret or go after everyone with a "big/pro" camera- whatever rules we wind up with- but I'm used to that everywhere else already. Dec 23, 2007 at 05:07 AM

ajkessler Online Buy and Sell: On p.1 #14 · Moonrise at Sunset (Bandon) Johnny Bravo wrote: Nonsense. The public owns the parks, and charging reasonble fees for those who use our parks is entirely reasonable and just represents good stewardship. This is particularly true in the case of those who put public assets to commercial use. Forgive my logic here, but if the public owns the park, shouldn't the public have a right to use the parks? (I'd consider anyone who pays taxes part of the public) Frankly, when the government takes 50% of everything I make each April I feel like I'm already being charged a "reasonable" fee. It's a bit different when a Hollywood style production and all that it brings with it wishes to use such a facility (as it will need care above and beyond what 'the public' does), but if I want to shoot a portrait at Joshua Tree or Yosemite I'd be a little aggravated if confronted by a ranger about it. Dec 24, 2007 at 07:47 PM

Rob Keaton Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #15 · Moonrise at Sunset (Bandon) Personally I think all this type of activity by the govt is dispicable. Pathetic little money grabs at every percieved opportunity with little or no justification. They simply believe that if they impose such fees the people will pay it - and they have good reason to think that because that's what tends to happen. It's more than just the fees but the precedent that doing things such as photography must be "permitted" by the officials. Otherwise you are a rogue, dare I say "undocumented" photographer. I would hate to see such precedents set because they are difficult if not impossible to reverse. About a year ago I was shooting surfing at my local beach, purely for my own pleasure. Two men were fishing in the surf (for their own pleasure as well, I imagine). A govt official walked past me and up to them to check they were carrying their "license to fish". Actually they weren't carrying them but wearing them - around their necks - much like a dog does. The scene was ugly to me. Worse still, as he passed me he said casually (and politely I might add) that the people in Sacramento were "talking about charging you guys", meaning surf photographers. I'd never heard such a thing. It's the only time I heard it to this day but the whole notion really sickens me. That's my 2 cents on the subject. Merry Christmas Dec 24, 2007 at 08:03 PM

ajkessler Online Buy and Sell: On p.1 #16 · Moonrise at Sunset (Bandon) Rob Keaton wrote: Personally I think all this type of activity by the govt is dispicable. Pathetic little money grabs at every percieved opportunity with little or no justification. They simply believe that if they impose such fees the people will pay it - and they have good reason to think that because that's what tends to happen. It's more than just the fees but the precedent that doing things such as photography must be "permitted" by the officials. Otherwise you are a rogue, dare I say "undocumented" photographer. I would hate to see such precedents set because they are difficult if not impossible to reverse. About a year ago I was shooting surfing at my local beach, purely for my own pleasure. Two men were fishing in the surf (for their own pleasure as well, I imagine). A govt official walked past me and up to them to check they were carrying their "license to fish". Actually they weren't carrying them but wearing them - around their necks - much like a dog does. The scene was ugly to me. Worse still, as he passed me he said casually (and politely I might add) that the people in Sacramento were "talking about charging you guys", meaning surf photographers. I'd never heard such a thing. It's the only time I heard it to this day but the whole notion really sickens me. That's my 2 cents on the subject. Merry Christmas Rob, why shouldn't we charge people to fish? I mean, we need lifeguards to patrol the beaches and inspectors to make sure the water is safe. How will we ever manage to pay for such things unless we charge the users a fee?? Dec 24, 2007 at 09:06 PM

Rob Keaton Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #17 · Moonrise at Sunset (Bandon) ajkessler wrote: Rob, why shouldn't we charge people to fish? I mean, we need lifeguards to patrol the beaches and inspectors to make sure the water is safe. How will we ever manage to pay for such things unless we charge the users a fee?? I'm tempted to respond to your question but a) a few lines in an online forum wouldn't do the topic justice and b) I really don't think we should get too deeply into such topics on this particular website anyhow. It's just not why it's here. I think most of the other photographers would agree. Should our paths ever cross I'll gladly buy you a beer (or 5) and give you a long-winded answer. Dec 24, 2007 at 09:50 PM

Ernie Aubert Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #18 · Moonrise at Sunset (Bandon) A very good, level-headed response, Rob. My salutations to you. Dec 25, 2007 at 01:37 AM

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