Steve Spencer
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 Re: Nikon Z 800mm f/6.3 VR S (PF) lens | |
jwolfe wrote:
Go back and re-read the thread. All I did was say I was hoping for a good Nikon APS-C body and have been told all about how it's not going to happen.
If you want to live under a rock where Sony doesn't have the best af in the industry that's fine. I stick to facts. I've actually shot all these bodies. A large majority of people posting haven't actually shot other systems.
I may be a Nikon shooter but I'm realistic about the need for Nikon to get on even ground with Sony to have a chance.
Steve Spencer wrote:
jwolfe wrote:
Umm wrong again!
My entire kit is Nikon. I am not a Sony shooter. You should stop posting BS. Stick to facts.
A shoot the D7500 and the D500. Fantastic cameras. But the af on the Sonys is amazing, and so with the new Canons and I'm sure the upcoming Z9. I've spent quite a bit of time with the A6600 and it is a great camera. Terrible ergomonics, but from an af standpoint its amazing.
No one said the viewfinder in the A6600 is perfect. It's progress not perfection. It's going to take time for the tech to flow downhill.
Stop being such a Debbie Downer.
Steve Spencer wrote:
jwolfe wrote:
Just about everything in this is wrong.
The A6600 can shoot at 11 fps WITH af and tracking. It can shoot at 8 fps with live view between the shots, which makes it work extremely similar to a DSLR. I never said it could shoot in electronic mode. It also has real-time tracking af with animal eye af. It is a very capable camera and will run circles around a DSLR in tracking people and some animals. I've never tried it with birds. Most people bird photographers shoot the A9 on Sony, and a few the A1.
The Z50 does not have real-time tracking. It cannot track eyes, faces and objects in real time. It can only shoot at 5 fps with af tracking.
You are trying to compare two entirely different camera systems.
Meanwhile Fuji, which is all APS-C, also has real-time tracking af. I have several friends who've been shooting sports with them for a few years.
So not only is it possible without a stacked sensor, MOST mirrorless bodies on the market right now lack it. Only the very high-end pro cameras have stacked sensors, and Canon isn't using them at all.
If you are going to post at least be accurate.
Steve Spencer wrote:
jwolfe wrote:
Have you shot with an R5 or a Sony A6600? They have really really great AF. Neither have a stacked sensor.
Nikon can't do more with the Z50? Umm, the A6600 shoots at 11 FPS and has Real-Time Tracking AF. So that is totally false.
I would be happy with a Z50ii that is similar to the A6600 while we wait for the Z500 down the road. I suspect many people would agree.
Steve Spencer wrote:
jwolfe wrote:
Well everyone seems to love the R5 and R6 just fine. I am talking about a mirrorless camera that can do what the D500 does but better. You don’t need a stacked sensor for that. If you are looking for a mini Z9 that’s never gonna happen. Nikon isn’t going to engineer a sensor for that niche of a camera. They will use an off the shelf sensor, which may or may not be stacked.
Steve Spencer wrote:
jwolfe wrote:
I don’t buy it. Sony has a whole line of these. And Canon is expected to put out the R7 APS-C next year. There’s a huge market of bird photographers out there. I’m guessing the Canon will be about $1999 or so. These cameras sell way more than a Z7ii or a Z9.
Steve Spencer wrote:
jwolfe wrote:
No one said anything about cheap. Nothing going forward is going to be cheap due to low sales volumes.
Personally I’m shooting with a D7500 and it does pretty much everything I need. It’s mostly due to weight. But I will probably add a D500 soon. I don’t need all those wizbang features. I just need solid AF.
Steve Spencer wrote:
jwolfe wrote:
A D500 doesn’t have a blackout free viewfinder or silent shooting. I was strictly talking AF.
All of my friends are still shooting DSLRs for a reason. There’s nothing to replace a D500 or a 7Dmkii.
Steve Spencer wrote:
jwolfe wrote:
Sony has made several of these already. The A6400/6600 can do 75% of what an A9 can do. The problem is the terrible size and layout. And lack of small primes.
Steve Spencer wrote:
suteetat wrote:
Steve Spencer wrote:
jwolfe wrote:
I will never sell my 500mm pf so long as I live. BUT I could see myself picking this lens up. What I'm waiting for is a Z version of the D500. Basically take the sensor from the Z50/Zfc and put the AF capabilities watered down from the Z9 and I'm sold. Until then I'm sticking to my DSLRs.
I'm waiting for the ability to shoot a Z7iii next to a Z D500. Pair that with my 500 pf, the Z200-600 and the 800 pf and I'm good for life.
Happy shooting!
The thing about mirrorless, however, is that you can't take the sensor form the Z50 and have anything remotely close to the AF capabilities of the Z9. With DSLRs the sensor and the AF units were separate. With mirrorless the AF depends to a large extent on the sensor scan speed. The sensor scan speed is pretty slow on the Z50 sensor and nowhere near the sensor scan speed of the Z9, so you can't get Z9 like AF with the Z50 sensor. You may be waiting for quite some time for the mirrorless D500, but then again maybe Nikon will build the right sensor for a mirrorless D500, but expect a pretty hefty price, however, because they certainly won't be using he Z50 sensor and one with a fast sensor scan speed at least right now won't come cheap.
I think that since Nikon has Z9 sensor already. Scaling the sensor down to DX will give roughly 20mp sensor for Z500 already.
Expeeds 7 will be able to handle the task easily. So technically, Nikon already have all the main ingredients for fast Z500 already. Even more interesting, I heard the rumored Z8's 80mp is also a stacked sensor. While Z8 won't be a speed monster like Z9, scaling that sensor down to aps-c, we probably can get approximately 30mp Z500 as well that will put Fuji's effort for sport/wildlife body to rest as well I think. No idea about the cost but it seems that hardware wise, there really should not be any problem for Nikon to do it and it is more about when they will do it. Now that Nikon has consolidated its factory down to one with lower capacity than in the past, we are not going to see Nikon producing 4-6 new bodies in one year and more likely to be 2-3 new bodies at most.
I think the cost will be the issue. How much do they save by scaling down the Z9 sensor to a 20 MP APS-C size? I don't think a decent camera with such a sensor can be priced below $2,500, and I don't know how well it will sell at that price when the Z6 with more megapixels and FF will likely be cheaper. Sure they could do it, but I don't know whether it makes sense to do so and not only is there that economic hurdle, but if they make that camera they really need to flesh out the APS-C line of lenses more and there are costs there including the slowing of the development of FF lenses. I think it will happen eventually, but I suspect it will be in 2025 or so. Keep in mind Sony has had the capability to make this camera for several years and hasn't done so. I think there is a reason for that and the basic problem is it will be hard to sell a lower MP APS-C camera when the company already have a quite capable higher MP FF camera that is cheaper. For Nikon this problem is exacerbated by the very nice Z5.
Sorry the a6400/6600 although good cameras do not have AF anywhere in the vicinity of the A9 and they don't have a blackout free finder, and with fast moving subjects you can't use silent shooting which is a big deal for me. Sure Nikon could make a camera like that, but IMO that is nothing like a D500 mirrorless camera. If someone wants to build a mirrorless D500 camera they are going to need a stacked sensor APS-C camera with a high sensor scan speed, so it can really be a small version of the top of the line camera and has a similar VF experience and can shoot well silently. Even if we take your inflated claim, IMO, that the a6400/a6600 is 75% the AF of the A9, that is not what a mirrorless D500 is about. If it is 90% then we may be talking such a camera, but 75% the AF is a long way away and I would put it more like 60% the AF.
Correct. The D500 is a DSLR so of course it doesn't have a blackout free viewfinder and it doesn't have quality silent shooting, but neither did the flagship D5 or D6 DSLRs. To me what makes the D500 so compelling is how it was competitive with the flagship cameras of the time on almost all features, but simply had an APS-C sensor. To pull that off in a mirrorless camera you need a stacked sensor APS-C sensor, and that isn't going to come cheap.
I actually said something about cheap and I think it is important. We know that Z6 series cameras are going to less than $2,000 and Z5 series cameras are going to be less than $1,200, so a $2,500 or even higher Z90 (or whatever a D500 type mirrorless would be called) might have a very small market. A lot of people might well prefer the higher MP, cheaper FF cameras over such a Z90. In addition, Nikon needs to flesh out the APS-C line of lenses for such a camera. I think the small market plus the needs for more APS-C lenses suggests that Nikon is not going to build this camera any time soon. There are simply a number of other cameras that will make them more money and are better supported by lenses already on the roadmap. As I said previously I think they will build such a camera, but I think 2025 is a good guess for when they will.
To be clear Sony has exactly zero stacked sensor APS-C cameras. I don't expect they will bring one out soon. I don't think Nikon will either. I don't think the Canon R7 will have that type of sensor as well. You may be interested in an APS-C camera with a slow sensor scan speed, but I am not and I don't think it would do this lens we are talking about here justice but that is just me. If you like that sort of camera fine, but what I am talking about is a stacked sensor APS-C camera and I don't see that happening soon.
Well we are in agreement that Nikon is not going to be building a APS-C stacked sensor anytime soon. What we are in disagreement about is whether Nikon can build a non-stacked sensor camera that would be much better than the Z50. I think they have done pretty much all they can with a non-stacked sensor with that camera. Nikon doesn't have anything like the Canon R5 or R6 in full frame (i.e., a non-stacked sensor with somewhat fast sensor scan speed). Sony doesn't have anything like that either unless the new A7 IV turns out to be that sort of camera, which I doubt it will be. So, it is not a matter of making an APS-C sensor that is a smaller version of a current Nikon FF camera. So, I don't see how you can think Nikon is going to come up with a new sensor with faster sensor scan speed than the Z50 unless they use a smaller version of the Z9 which is of course a stacked sensor. So, I don't see anything that makes me think Nikon is going to build a Z90 (or a Z70, which is a lot more what you seem to be suggesting) anytime soon. In addition any higher level camera, IMO, would require Nikon to slow down making FF Z lenses and make more APS-C Z lenses, so for those reason what your suggesting I just don't think going to happen.
I think before we get that type of camera we will get a smaller FF camera with the Z9 sensor which will work wonderfully with this new 800 PF even in crop mode for as a pretty spiffy APS-C camera with 20 MP.
If you would bother to read the specs, you would know that the Z50 has 11 fps so no the A6600 does not do more fps. In that high fps mode in both cameras they have serious limitations, however, mainly because of the slow sensor scan speed of both cameras. Yes, the a6400/a6600 have "real time tracking," but you do realize that is just a algorithm that allows easy use of the AF system and does not improve the underlying hardware limitation of the slow sensor scan speed. Specifically, 1) you will get a lot of motion blur if you shoot in silent mode (which a lot of wildlife photographers would like to use); 2) you will have a huge reduction in AF updates per second compared to a stacked sensor camera; 3) the viewfinder will have lots of insertions of old frames making tracking a lot more difficult especially if you get anywhere near the 11 fps in the specs.
I am not saying you can't use these cameras for wildlife you can, but they are seriously limited compared to stacked sensor cameras. They are even limited compared to the D500 which functions much better at its full fps than these APS-C mirrorless cameras where it can shoot at 10 fps without any impact on the viewfinder and without any reduction in the file quality. Sure the Sony has the new algorithm for easier use of the AF system, but it has no additional AF updates per second, file quality is lost as you move to higher frame per second and the viewfinder experience is compromised. All in all, I think any APS-C camera on the market right now is inferior to a D500 and it will only be when an APS-C camera comes with a stacked sensor and can shoot silently without motion distortion, has a black out free continuously updated viewfinder, and has the big increase in AF calculations per second that mirrorless APS-C cameras will actually be better than a D500.
I am not saying that you can't use an a6400/a6600 or a Z50 for wildlife shooting; you can. I am saying, however, that I think the D500 is better than any of these cameras so Nikon building another version of such a camera is not going to be a replacement for the D500.
The one additional advantage the mirrorless APS-C mirrorless cameras would of course have is that they can use modern mirrorless lenses like the one we are talking about here, but in the case of Nikon which has many excellent F mount lenses at lower prices that would only matter if you want a very specific lens. The 800 PF might be that lens, but you would have to use an inferior camera to be able to use it.
No you are a Sony advocate who has hopped onto the Nikon board to play up a Sony camera without acknowledging its limitations. The three limitations I noted are real and for wildlife shooting they are serious limitations. The a6600 runs circles around a DSLR in AI AF modes if you don't know what you are doing, but with skill and a DSLR you can track extremely well. You just need to have the practice and skill to do so. There won't be an algorithm to select the eye, but you can select the eye and you can follow that eye if you have skill. The Sony's algorithm advantage can be replaced with skill, but you can't shoot an A6600 at 10 fps without seriously compromising the view finder experience, which matters. Given the lag in the a6600 and the compromised VF at high fps, I would never pick the a6600 over a D500. Viewfinder experience matters a great deal to me and it is seriously compromised on the a6600. You might not care about the viewfinder experience, but if you are fairly evaluating the cameras you should be able to acknowledge that is an issue with the a6600. That you can't shows your bias, The D500 doesn't have a compromise in viewfinder experience at higher fps like the a6600 does. That to me is definitive in determining my preference for the D500 over the a6600. You may care a lot more about algorithms than I do and prefer the A6600, but let's be clear that those AI AF modes are the only advantage of the a6600 over the D500 and the A6600 has a distinct disadvantage compared to the D500 is viewfinder experience. So, to many people still using the D500, who use it for the better viewfinder experience they are not going to be persuaded by an a6600 or a camera like that (such as the Z50 or a slightly better non-stacked sensor APS-C camera). They are going to want a better viewfinder experience, they are going to want to be able to shoot silently, and they are going to want the extra AF calculations that a stacked sensor can provide. Such a stacked sensor APS-C camera will, IMO, get D500 shooter to switch, but a non-stacked sensor APS-C camera like the Sony a6600 or the Nikon Z50 will never do it and it comes down to the viewfinder experience of such cameras will always be a big step backward that I don't think many D500 shooter will want to take.
In regards to this thread, if you want to buy the 800 PF then I think you are going to want a stacked sensor camera to have the viewfinder experience to take advantage of it. Viewfinder experience matters even more with such a long telephoto and I can't see a non-stacked sensor APS-C camera being many people's choice for such a long focal length expensive lens. You argument are not only biased, but irrelevant to this thread.
I have been presenting facts not BS, so stop the name calling. There is no place for that. We can disagree about the value of an EVF. We can disagree about the AF algorithms. That is what is happening here. That you have to call me names because I disagree is the worst way to have a discussion. You may not own a Sony but you were clearly advocating for a Sony camera on the Nikon board. Why do that? I agree you should take that discussion to a different thread.
I have re-read the thread. I also have both Nikon and Sony systems (Leica and Fuji as well), so I have shot these systems too. We have different opinions, but when you reread the thread look at how many times you call my opinions wrong. My facts were not wrong, but you can't seem to separate opinions from facts and you needed to call me names and to call my opinions wrong. The bottom line is we disagree about the viewfinder experience of these cameras. We also disagree about how critical AI AF is to our shooting. Those are differences in opinion not fact.
We didn't disagree about hope that Nikon would develop a good APS-C mirrorless camera, we disagreed about what it would take to make such a camera. You think Nikon can get there with a non-stacked sensor. I think it will take a stacked sensor. Again that is a difference in opinion not a difference in fact.
I obviously made some wrong assumptions about what gear you own, but you also made some wrong assumptions about me. My wildlife camera is a Sony A9, (you could have looked at my profile and figured that out). My wife also has an A1, so I know what Sony AF is capable of. I also know what their non-stacked sensor cameras are capable of having extensively used an A7 II, A7 III, A7r II, A7r III, and a6400. It is a night and day difference between the stacked sensor cameras and the non-stacked sensor cameras. It doesn't appear that you have extensively used a stacked sensor Sony camera. Try one out or try out the Z9 when it is available and I predict you will see the difference right away and understand why I think a good APS-C camera will need a stacked sensor. Maybe you won't and we will disagree about how much better the stacked sensor camera are, but that too will be an opinion.
I still think an 800 PF deserves a stacked sensor camera. I still think that a Nikon APS-C stacked camera is a long way off--I predict 2025. I still think we are likely to see a Nikon small stacked sensor FF camera before a stacked sensor APS-C camera. You can disagree with those opinions but stop saying they are wrong. They are opinions and not facts and I never said otherwise.
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