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Archive 2011 · Certified Professional Photographer

  
 
sethny
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p.3 #1 · Certified Professional Photographer


RDKirk wrote:
Actually, the PPA was very vocal on the orphan works proposal and spent years lobbying against it--something more than a "quick look" will show the extent of their involvement. The PPA has also spent years lobbying for professional associations to bargain collectively with health insurance companies to provide insurance to associated small businesses at the same rate as large corporations. And whether you like it or not, whenever Walmart or Walgreens asks for verification of copyright license before making a copy of your image, PPA is respnsible for that, too.



yes (but the NPPA only went to Washington to talk) in any case I remember the PPA strong statements as well: it doesn't change the fact that we are on our own and we have no voice.

the orphan works bill and the "diligent search" - not to be confused with the law of the playground (there is a difference, at least I guess so.. even if it does sound like a lalaland law ) - both are an example on how we have to take everything because we have no representation (Union-like).

again about the orphan thing the solution was simple if we had a representation: a publisher can publish the material and pay for the use anyway , to an account managed by our Union (to be ready in case the owner shows up or to be used for other benefits.. like a pension fund or similar) . Of course the publishers (sponsored by google and microsoft) don't like that: they push for the "I don't wanna pay anything" concept -which is the real reason of the matter-. Now how that can be possible? Because we don't have a representation, that's why!

now why don't we take a "quick look" at others: let's imagine an "orphan works" applied to the records and wait for the reaction of the Record Industry. That should be fun (to watch)




Apr 12, 2011 at 07:25 AM
RDKirk
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p.3 #2 · Certified Professional Photographer


yes (but the NPPA only went to Washington to talk) in any case I remember the PPA strong statements as well: it doesn't change the fact that we are on our own and we have no voice.

the orphan works bill and the "diligent search" - not to be confused with the law of the playground (there is a difference, at least I guess so.. even if it does sound like a lalaland law ) - both are an example on how we have to take everything because we have no representation (Union-like).

again about the orphan thing the solution was
...Show more

We have a voice--we have PPA and ASMP with permanent lobbies in Washington.

What you're saying is that the PPA and ASMP don't have the power to call all photographers to strike--which is a union's first stick--and PPA and ASMP do not have funds to contribute to and influence election campaigns--which is a union's second big stick.

But a trade organization is not a union, nor is there any indication that photographers want to be in a union. Heck a facet of this thread is the fact that so many photographers don't see a point to membership even in a trade organization.

And the government is currently siding with big business to demonize unions anyway. They've thrown teachers under the bus--police and firefighters are next.



Apr 12, 2011 at 09:17 AM
sethny
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p.3 #3 · Certified Professional Photographer


RDKirk wrote:
We have a voice--we have PPA and ASMP with permanent lobbies in Washington.


we do? I say we don't.


What you're saying is that the PPA and ASMP don't have the power to call all photographers to strike. why PPA or NPPA can't do that? it's a legitimate question, isn't it?


not at all: in fact the record industry needs no strike to call and yet they defend their rights any way they can.



But a trade organization is not a union



we need representation, be it union-like or a national real organization, we need a representation defending our rights , not a difficult task after all : just our rights: be it the right to shoot, be it the right to be paid.

Photographers have to face abuse every day: now what happens? the other photographers don't jump to action , even worse: the big guys never stand by the little guys, but instead show their smiles to the abuser because usually the abuser holds the power to let them work.

Do I really have to tell you what happens if we are divided and don't stand up for the others?

only a real union-like organization can stand up, we can't, at least as individual. For obvious reasons. If I stand up then I won't be able to work anymore. That's how it is. Let's don't pretend NOT to know how it is, please.


, nor is there any indication that photographers want to be in a union. Heck a facet of this thread is the fact that so many photographers don't see a point to membership even in a trade organization.


absolutely. It is (in part) our fault: we are (like it or not) primadonna.

And the government is currently siding with big business to demonize unions anyway. They've thrown teachers under the bus--police and firefighters are next.


those are public jobs, we are private: big difference, BIG.



Apr 12, 2011 at 09:56 AM
RDKirk
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p.3 #4 · Certified Professional Photographer


not at all: in fact the record industry needs no strike to call and yet they defend their rights any way they can.

Ah, welcome to an economy designed for the benefit of big business, not small business. You are learning the difference between the capitalists and the real meaning of " bourgeoisie." We who live by marketing the fruits of our own personal production are the bourgeoisie, not capitalists. "Joe the Plumber" is not in the same camp as General Motors.

we need representation, be it union-like or a national real organization, we need a representation defending our rights , not a difficult task after all : just our rights: be it the right to shoot, be it the right to be paid.

I think you missed the distinction I tried to point out before. There is a difference between "representation" and "power." We have representation...we have no power. We have to entreat those with power to fight in our behalf.

Labor unions do have power...but big business and government are now in a concerted effort to destroy union power. Yes, they're starting with public employee unions because those are currently easy to demonize, but make no mistake about it: The very concept of collective bargaining is itself in the crosshairs.






Apr 12, 2011 at 10:25 AM
mdude85
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p.3 #5 · Certified Professional Photographer


The types of unions that have been the subject of much recent controversy are not very similar to the "unions" that represent the interests of professional photographers.


Apr 12, 2011 at 12:17 PM
c.d.embrey
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p.3 #6 · Certified Professional Photographer


Two things:

1) Union power comes from contracts. No contract, no power - simple as that. I'm retired from the IATSE (Hollywoods union) so I'll talk about what I know about. The studios sign a union contract because unions have the best people as members - if you want to use them then you have to sign the contract.

Another power that unions have is that a member of an un-related union will not cross a picket line. An example - NABET (a television union) was picketing a producer who was violating the contract. The strike ended when the producer had phone problems and the Union Members from the Telephone Company refused to cross the NABET picket line.

Unions do photographers no good, because there is no-one to be signed to a contract.

2) Classic Guilds had power because they had the people who did the work. If you wanted to build a large stone Catheral you didn't hire day-laborers, you hired a Mason and his crew.

Guilds had apprenticeships, you started at the bottom and worked you way to the top. If a client called the Guild and asked for a list of people who knew how to photograph jewelry, they were sent sent a list of qualified people. Well this ain't gonna happen now - everybody wants to start at the top



Apr 12, 2011 at 12:21 PM
sethny
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p.3 #7 · Certified Professional Photographer


c.d.embrey wrote:
Two things:

1) Union power comes from contracts. No contract, no power - simple as that. I'm retired from the IATSE (Hollywoods union) so I'll talk about what I know about. The studios sign a union contract because unions have the best people as members - if you want to use them then you have to sign the contract.

Another power that unions have is that a member of an un-related union will not cross a picket line. An example - NABET (a television union) was picketing a producer who was violating the contract. The strike ended when the producer had
...Show more

what a thread !!!!




Apr 12, 2011 at 06:38 PM
hatch1921
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p.3 #8 · Certified Professional Photographer




what a thread !!!!



well... it has been an interesting one to say the least. I've had this topic on a few other forms and one thing which is common among all the conversations... we are a passionate bunch.

Is anyone in the process of becoming a CPP or are you one now? Please share you thoughts.

Hatch
www.hatch1921.com



Apr 12, 2011 at 08:40 PM
RDKirk
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p.3 #9 · Certified Professional Photographer


hatch1921 wrote:
well... it has been an interesting one to say the least. I've had this topic on a few other forms and one thing which is common among all the conversations... we are a passionate bunch.

Is anyone in the process of becoming a CPP or are you one now? Please share you thoughts.

Hatch
www.hatch1921.com


Have you considered posing that question on the PPA forum?



Apr 12, 2011 at 10:20 PM
hatch1921
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p.3 #10 · Certified Professional Photographer


RDKirk wrote:
Have you considered posing that question on the PPA forum?



I haven't... I haven't looked but I'm guessing you have to be a member of the PPA to use the forum? Would be a good place ... nice suggestion.

Hatch



Apr 12, 2011 at 11:16 PM
RDKirk
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p.3 #11 · Certified Professional Photographer


I haven't... I haven't looked but I'm guessing you have to be a member of the PPA to use the forum?

You have to register on the forum, you don't have to be a member of the organization.



Apr 13, 2011 at 06:37 AM
sboerup
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p.3 #12 · Certified Professional Photographer


Did it within 2 years of starting photography. Thought it was an accomplishment, but it wasn't that hard to be honest. It hasn't really benefited me in any way.


Apr 13, 2011 at 01:23 PM
RDKirk
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p.3 #13 · Certified Professional Photographer


sboerup wrote:
Did it within 2 years of starting photography. Thought it was an accomplishment, but it wasn't that hard to be honest. It hasn't really benefited me in any way.


A whole lot of people bomb it, so you can consider it an accomplishment, and be benefitted by knowing you found easy what a lot of people fail.



Apr 13, 2011 at 02:26 PM
Ghost
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p.3 #14 · Certified Professional Photographer


RDKirk wrote:
Leibovitz has had a very good agent who has made business decisions for her. She's made some extremely bad personal finance decisions, but her business is booming. I mentioned that situation.


Like when she switched from Canon to Nikon and then back?



Apr 13, 2011 at 03:03 PM
RDKirk
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p.3 #15 · Certified Professional Photographer


Ghost wrote:
Like when she switched from Canon to Nikon and then back?


I don't think she ever made a particular "switch." I've seen her using Canon, Nikon, Mamiya, Hasselblad. From what I can see, she uses whatever camera her assistants hand to her...and that might well have something to do with her agent's business decisions.



Apr 13, 2011 at 03:16 PM
mulder32
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p.3 #16 · Certified Professional Photographer


I have very little need for the certification. To be honest, I'm not sure if I could earn it. It seems to me the criteria has a lot to do with studio work and creating shots. I make my journalism degree (emphasis photojournalism) from a 4-year accredited journalism university my "certification".


Apr 13, 2011 at 03:49 PM
DavidWEGS
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p.3 #17 · Certified Professional Photographer


Posted to your blog, but the short answer is … will it work for you?

I think its a good idea if only to show you are competent. Beyond that, get it if you can make it work for you.

these guys are making it work http://www.professionalweddingphotographersdenver.com

which includes our moderator, a couple other locals (and growing), plus myself.. you have to make it work to your advantage if you bother…. IMO.



Apr 13, 2011 at 06:21 PM
DavidWEGS
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p.3 #18 · Certified Professional Photographer


sboerup wrote:
Did it within 2 years of starting photography. Thought it was an accomplishment, but it wasn't that hard to be honest. It hasn't really benefited me in any way.


Why don't you work it up a little ^^^^



Apr 13, 2011 at 06:24 PM
hatch1921
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p.3 #19 · Certified Professional Photographer


I posted the original question/post on the PPA Forum... in the CPP section....

Drop in on the PPA Forums and see what they have to say. S

I do appreciate all the feedback/conversion this post has produced.


Thank you David for the post to the blog. Will it work for me? Very good question... one I truly can't answer as I'm torn about all the program and it's standards... not so much the test part... the image submissions. With the new changes... maybe it will help? I just looked at a passing portfolio...and shook my head... again...I'm far from the best photographer out there... but damn! So... I'm going to wait awhile and see how all this plays out.

Hatch



Apr 13, 2011 at 06:59 PM
Sid Ceaser
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p.3 #20 · Certified Professional Photographer


(Hopefully this won't come across as an angry rant, which it isn't. Just a brain dump of thoughts.)


This is such a fascinating topic, and one that has come up a few time in my social and business networking circles.

Some people that I talk with in my area feel that becoming certified is the only way to become a "successful photographer". They feel it is absolutely necessary to submit images that follow these specific guidelines and parameters to obtain a certification that, yes, they too are a "professional photographer" and have now been knighted to hang their shingle out alongside their other photographer brothers and sisters. I know one person who has told me that the only way I will ever succeed is by becoming a member, submitting to their jury process and see if I pass their tests.

Certification is for marketing. Don't forget, there is a reason why doctors and lawyers have all those framed diplomas on their office walls; to impress you. "His wall is full of framed things with official looking signatures from impressive looking places" clients and prospective clients say. "He *must* be good! He *must* be a master!" It brings traffic into your door. Having that "Master Certified Photographer" sticker in their door or on their website will attract people who are wooed by credentials.

Personally, I have newspaper articles, old gallery exhibition postcards and tear sheets of magazines I've been in hanging in my hallway outside my studio door. A few months ago I hung some newspaper clippings on my wall about how I proposed to my now Fiance by using Muppets, and people freak out over that. "Ohmigod! You're that guy that did that thing with puppets on the Internet!!" People like to be impressed. They like to see that they are being photographed not just by some normal joe, but someone that has "done something". Something worth hanging on your wall, or applying to your door. Certification by the PPA or CPP brings that. Add to that all the print competitions that you can enter with those groups. Suddenly you are a "Kodak Print Award Winner". How can that not look impressive? How can that not beat any other photographer in your area?

On the flip side, like David duChemin says in his book "Visionmongers": ". . . claims to be the best, the foremost, the favorite, or - God forbid - a master, are not only eyed with disbelief but with suspicion. If you have to say you're a master, you probably aren't."

But for all the pluses it seems like it might have, I can't help but feel there are hidden negatives. Or maybe they aren't hidden at all. I can't help but feel that you are loosing some of your personal style and identity by joining these groups. Right away, to become certified, you have to agree to lighting in a certain style, or adhering to specific rules. Not every photograph in life will be a 3:1 setup. Joining these large groups and getting mass-blasting emails covering current trends and hot topics is very much like buying into a franchise; you get the boutique studio setup, you start shooting what's hot in the current issue of Professional Photographer Magazine, etc. Simply on a basis of compromising your personal style and identity, I wouldn't want to join. Just because I use one light for some of my work means I'm not "up to par" with other photographers? I'm suddenly not good enough? Hardly. In the end, it should be about the work that you produce in your specific style and the acceptance that not everyone will like the work you produce.

Just like learning, everything varies. Some learned the craft of photography by reading books. Some learned the craft of photography by going to art college. Some learned in their basement darkroom. Others learned by assisting; there are a multitude of ways that you can be a professional photographer. If you want to join a specific group or not shouldn't make you as an artist and a crafts person feel any less devalued. The groups I want to avoid are the groups that want me to agree to do things a specific way; as an artist and a crafts person, my style takes precedent over everything else.

For me personally, I'm not lured by the temptation of joining what feels like a franchise operation. I'm not interested in agreeing to play by their rules as to what *they* think good work looks like. My clients, and the public decide what they like the second that they see something. We are not trying to go out there to please every person in the world esthetically, despite what people might tell you. Your clients are the ones that see you work, respond or have some sort of feeling about it, and walk in your door or pick up the phone and call you.

Regardless of if you are certified or not, we are all image makers, and we should all be supporting one another in the life and love of the craft of photography.

Cheers,
Sid



Apr 18, 2011 at 12:23 PM
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