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Archive 2011 · Seth Godin on Photography

  
 
ksmahgrts
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p.2 #1 · Seth Godin on Photography


most of what seth said simply reinforced what you'll find in dane's books - and what he's been advocating with his fast track photographer movement for the last few years - some quotes verbatim.

i chuckled a little at some of the twitter buzz following the discussion - same folks who've been trashing the concepts were suddenly on board when seth discussed them.



Mar 07, 2011 at 10:00 AM
lisy78
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p.2 #2 · Seth Godin on Photography


Chris Fawkes wrote:
I wonder if many come into the industry feeling like they don't actually belong. What they want is not to be different but to be acknowledged by others as legitimate, an actual professional. For that reason looking like others is seen as a benchmark.


I will be the first* to admit that I see myself in that statement. I have been actively working to try and introduce more of "me" into the equation, but the underlying statement holds true to me. Not saying that's a good thing, it is what it is.

Ciao!

Alessandro

*maybe the only one?



Mar 07, 2011 at 10:10 AM
Homey
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p.2 #3 · Seth Godin on Photography


lisy78 wrote:
I will be the first* to admit that I see myself in that statement. I have been actively working to try and introduce more of "me" into the equation, but the underlying statement holds true to me. Not saying that's a good thing, it is what it is.

Ciao!

Alessandro

*maybe the only one?


Thats fine if the your bench mark is members of this forum and other greats on the web. If your benchmark is your local competition then not so much.



Mar 07, 2011 at 10:15 AM
Evan Baines
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p.2 #4 · Seth Godin on Photography


Tony, you know I love and respect you... so I'm going to pick on you.

Your argument above suggests that there are absolutely no substantive choices that anyone can make to offer different products and services, and that the only thing that matters is our branding and whether we are all unique and special little snowflakes of personality and vision.

Problems:
1. If everyone is special, no one is.
2. I will argue that if a person is completely unwilling at least to question any of the basic assumptions about the service we provide, I am highly skeptical of how unique his or her personality really is as it relates to their work. There are lots of choices that we make that affect the services we provide and the products that we offer, but almost no one questions any of these assumptions because everyone else is doing it a certain way and everyone is afraid of being wrong. Here are some examples:

-99% of wedding photographers provide "an exciting blend of 'photojournalism,' 'fashion-inspired portraiture,' and traditional portraiture to keep the parents happy" in nearly identical proportions. The fact of the matter is that most everyone is a jack-of-all-trades master of none. When Amanda and I got married, we didn't want anything but documentary... surely there are other couples out there who want a specialist and not a generalist. However, everyone is deathly afraid of not being able to satisfy that middle-of-the-road client.

-Why on earth does everyone assume that you have to offer flush-mount books, or even use ANY book company? I find the lack of creativity in wedding photography product offerings nearly comical. The only major difference between any of the main company's books is cover options and aspect ratios: the printing is all done on the same paper with the same printers and the binding is all pretty much in the same style. Photography is supposed to be artistic, but no one is even willing to consider MAKING something.

-Pretty much everyone here delivers mostly/all color, and then some B&W on the "Artsy" shots. Why do we assume that everyone wants that proportion? I didn't want any color wedding photos when I got married.

-I'm not even going to get into film/digital (and the myopia of using the same camera and film options is just as bad in the film community!), but what about rangefinders? What about TLRs? Different types of camera WILL change your approach to content in significant ways.

-In the processing world, why do I never hear about people trying GIMP or something like that? Everyone uses the same friggin' software and isn't even experimenting!

....etc..... This could go on.

Bottom line: there are lots of MEANINGFUL choices one can make if one wants to be truly different, but most people are unwilling to consider any of those more basic assumptions because they hope that their pictures will be special because of the unique inner beauty that lives in each of our hearts.... And the bottom line is that part of being TRULY special is being willing to make substantive changes rather than just throwing a different font on the same old story.

And the flip side of the marketing thing: I've heard people say in this thread that it takes an unbelievably special photographer to get along just on the merit and uniqueness of one's vision. The flip side is that it takes an unbelievably special marketer to convince people that one's product has real value when one's product is actually completely homogeneous with everyone else's.



Mar 07, 2011 at 10:22 AM
sboerup
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p.2 #5 · Seth Godin on Photography


Evan Baines wrote:
The flip side is that it takes an unbelievably special marketer to convince people that one's product has real value when one's product is actually completely homogeneous with everyone else's.


This is what I've learned over the past 2 years, and was reinforced by Godin in the video. It doesn't matter if you are 'super special', but that you understand how to make people believe that you are 'super special'.

On Godin's blog recently, he referenced Apple and their beginning years. They tried to prove to consumers and businesses with 'evidence based' marketing, ie: laying down facts about why they were better. They had plenty of facts, but it didn't really do anything.

Then Apple started 'teling a story' and getting people to buy-in to their story. And, now you know the Apple today and how their 'story' is changing things dramatically for them.

What's your story?



Mar 07, 2011 at 10:37 AM
sboerup
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p.2 #6 · Seth Godin on Photography


For example, this was a VERY early video that Apple produced. It had NOTHING to do with computers or even technology. But, they had a story to tell about people thinking differently...




Mar 07, 2011 at 10:39 AM
Evan Baines
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p.2 #7 · Seth Godin on Photography


sboerup wrote:
This is what I've learned over the past 2 years, and was reinforced by Godin in the video. It doesn't matter if you are 'super special', but that you understand how to make people believe that you are 'super special'.



But my point is that this is a much easier task if you are, in fact, special to some degree. The more special your product or services, the less special of a marketer one has to be to get that point across. If one has a homogeneous product/service, it takes much more skill to convince people that it is special.



Mar 07, 2011 at 10:42 AM
sboerup
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p.2 #8 · Seth Godin on Photography


Evan Baines wrote:
But my point is that this is a much easier task if you are, in fact, special to some degree. The more special your product or services, the less special of a marketer one has to be to get that point across. If one has a homogeneous product/service, it takes much more skill to convince people that it is special.


Agreed, but for the most part, there are not very many genuinely unique/special photographers....like me So for me, I can't rest upon my portfolio or any single distinguishing factor to sell my services...at least I don't think so.



Mar 07, 2011 at 10:46 AM
ksmahgrts
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p.2 #9 · Seth Godin on Photography


Evan Baines wrote:
[...] the bottom line is that part of being TRULY special is being willing to make substantive changes rather than just throwing a different font on the same old story.[...]


much of what i've learned from both dane & seth over the past few years is that making a declaration & commitment to a big choice is at the heart of truly achieving success.

with great risk comes great reward - half-assing it leads to more of the same.

Evan Baines wrote:
But my point is that this is a much easier task if you are, in fact, special to some degree. The more special your product or services, the less special of a marketer one has to be to get that point across. If one has a homogeneous product/service, it takes much more skill to convince people that it is special.


most won't ever invest the time, do the work. or fall on their faces enough to discover what a. makes me, uniquely me b. how do i leverage that into business success?

Edited on Mar 07, 2011 at 11:24 AM · View previous versions



Mar 07, 2011 at 11:00 AM
Brian Virts
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p.2 #10 · Seth Godin on Photography


You have to be willing to take risks and be willing to give it away and even walk away. Photography for me is a creative outlet. There really isn't much more than that for me. I'm a parent, I've made tons of money, I've worked with many people, I've traveled, I've been a guitarist, played with tons of other musicians, blues, rock etc..I've restored an old house, I've lived and loved and then some! But really who cares! The only thing that matters is my next shoot...

I bring my experiences and my creative vision to whatever I do. I haven't shot as much as probably most the people here, but it just doesn't matter. What matters is what you bring to the table, and that's all about knowing who you are.

Opportunity, dread, zombie. There may be some truth to that in the industry, but if you have raw creative talent, that is never threatened by anything on the surface.



Mar 07, 2011 at 11:21 AM
hardlyboring
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p.2 #11 · Seth Godin on Photography


Agree with Evan and Spencer's points. I had my wife watch the video and then asked her ..."what did that mean to you..." She responded.."It depends if you think we are ordinary photographers taking picture of ordinary people.." and "What is going to set us apart?"
All of this comes back to finding your style and your brand. I struggle with this constantly but the struggle is good because I am going to come out ahead in the end. I am never satisfied with just being another one of the bunch.
My vision vision may not be realized yet but like I told my wife...if we work hard enough we will find it and then be able to sell it.
Being original in today's market is VERY hard. Their are so many people doing the same thing and so many people who are doing different things. Like Grits said the people who invest the time will *hopefully* see the return.



Mar 07, 2011 at 01:11 PM
Tony Hoffer
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p.2 #12 · Seth Godin on Photography


Evan Baines wrote:
Tony, you know I love and respect you... so I'm going to pick on you.

Your argument above suggests that there are absolutely no substantive choices that anyone can make to offer different products and services, and that the only thing that matters is our branding and whether we are all unique and special little snowflakes of personality and vision.

Problems:
1. If everyone is special, no one is.
2. I will argue that if a person is completely unwilling at least to question any of the basic assumptions about the service we provide, I am highly skeptical of how unique his
...Show more

I actually think we're saying the same thing, but maybe I said it badly.

What I was trying to say is that a photographer needs to decide what makes them different than build around that rather than building towards being the same.



Mar 07, 2011 at 03:06 PM
Andrew Welsh
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p.2 #13 · Seth Godin on Photography


sboerup wrote:
Then Apple started 'teling a story' and getting people to buy-in to their story. And, now you know the Apple today and how their 'story' is changing things dramatically for them.

What's your story?

Specifically how do people buy into their story? I haven't bought into Apple's story- the only Apple product I own is an ipod touch, bought because of it's features as a palm pilot and MP3 player. So how can I relate? I think like an engineer too much... this is an area of business that doesn't come naturally and is (probably) a big reason why I'm not raking in the weddings.



Mar 07, 2011 at 03:13 PM
HubbardJA
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p.2 #14 · Seth Godin on Photography


Andrew Welsh wrote:
Specifically how do people buy into their story? I haven't bought into Apple's story- the only Apple product I own is an ipod touch, bought because of it's features as a palm pilot and MP3 player. So how can I relate? I think like an engineer too much... this is an area of business that doesn't come naturally and is (probably) a big reason why I'm not raking in the weddings.


Apple's story (branding) isn't for everyone. That's why pc's have become a commodity and Apple is seen as more of a luxury product. Think of your own photography in these terms... Who can relate to your story (branding) as a photographer?

Your story will not be for everyone, just like Apple. But those who relate to your story will be willing to pay more because they perceive value in your story and how they fit into it.


jah



Mar 07, 2011 at 03:47 PM
Ghost
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p.2 #15 · Seth Godin on Photography


I'm recruiting photographers who will shoot for me and recruit other photographers to shoot for them. Each photographer that makes money will give me a cut. Together we can build a successful business and everyone benefits. Who's with me?


Mar 07, 2011 at 05:22 PM
azkaps
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p.2 #16 · Seth Godin on Photography


Ghost wrote:
I'm recruiting photographers who will shoot for me and recruit other photographers to shoot for them. Each photographer that makes money will give me a cut. Together we can build a successful business and everyone benefits. Who's with me?


sounds like the business model for Amway! I'm all in for pyramid schemes



Mar 07, 2011 at 06:14 PM
qwyjibo
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p.2 #17 · Seth Godin on Photography


As for how this applies to photography, I think that Evan, Tony, and Spencer are all right. You’ve each singled out an area of the wedding photography value chain and analyzed the opportunities for differentiation. An overly simplified version being that Evan addressed the photography piece, Tony and Spencer the personal/marketing/branding chunk (there’s lots of overlap in there), and there also is the business model part that encompasses a lot of the hows… I don’t think that anyone with a novel idea of how to do business wants to share this here. Personally I think that the first and last have the largest number of opportunities to differentiate from the pack and provide real value.

lisy78 wrote:
His Domino project, on the other hand... sounds like the dumbest thing since the Eskimo refridgeration company. Well.. unless he just explained it poorly. it sounded like you when you buy a copy of his book you get 5, that you would then presumably spread around. he then points out that the average american buys ZERO books per year, so he feels his domino project will help his books reach all those Americans who wouldn't buy it.

IMHO that presumes that Americans aren't buying books 'cause they can't afford them, 'cause they don't know where the local barnes and Noble is,
...Show more

A good (albeit somewhat stretched and not always applicable) analogy for the business model change however, may be the Domino Project. I think that Godin recognized that there were significant flaws in the publishing industry and that new technology had the ability to change the model. He probably looked at the old publishing houses and compared and contrasted these to the blogger/self publisher and recognized that he may be able to meld the best of both.
Old publishing
Cons: Long form -not good for bloggy ideas (but I’m not going to spend good money on a 80 page book), slow to print (bureaucratic editing, printing, etc.), expensive (paper costs etc.), middle men (bookstores govern what gets shelf space), no one is buying physical books nowadays
Pros: access to distribution, trust with customer
Blogger/self publisher
Cons: often too short/not an accepted long form medium (can’t really expound interesting ideas), no trust with customer, no one is getting paid
Pros: cheap, fast, relevant

Looking at the two of these, he recognized that new forms of distribution allowed him to become a virtual publishing house where he could build the access to distribution (probably cut a deal with Amazon), trust with customer (banking on his name and that the customer would believe that he would only invite talented folks), medium (short books that can properly explain ideas) and combined this with cheap and fast immediacy that long form bloggers can deliver. I think that his 1/5/52 is just lip service (look at the discounts, and I’m pretty sure nobody is buying 52 books at a time for a minor discount unless it’s for something like school) in trying to change how ideas disseminate, but he’s really becoming a virtual publishing house for shorter idea based books without the drawbacks of traditional publishing.



Mar 08, 2011 at 01:03 AM
TomKayser
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p.2 #18 · Seth Godin on Photography


sboerup wrote:
Then Apple started 'teling a story' and getting people to buy-in to their story. And, now you know the Apple today and how their 'story' is changing things dramatically for them.

What's your story?


no, the big apple success started when they begun selling consumer goods and attracting Sony buyers instead of Dell buyers.

by the way: read jack trout, al ries - positioning



Mar 08, 2011 at 03:23 AM
TomKayser
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p.2 #19 · Seth Godin on Photography


hardlyboring wrote:
My vision vision may not be realized yet but like I told my wife...if we work hard enough we will find it and then be able to sell it.


it's no matter of working hard enough. rich people don't work harder than poor people.



Mar 08, 2011 at 03:29 AM
TomKayser
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p.2 #20 · Seth Godin on Photography


HubbardJA wrote:
Apple's story (branding) isn't for everyone. That's why pc's have become a commodity and Apple is seen as more of a luxury product. Think of your own photography in these terms... Who can relate to your story (branding) as a photographer?

Your story will not be for everyone, just like Apple. But those who relate to your story will be willing to pay more because they perceive value in your story and how they fit into it.

jah


wrong. PCs (Macs) aren't important for apple any more. they sell iphones. for everyone. that started their success



Mar 08, 2011 at 03:31 AM
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