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which lens has the most 3D POP?

chez
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p.77 #1 · which lens has the most 3D POP?

RoamingScott wrote:
The irony of AI being trained on what POP is by publicly available posts by photographers who cannot adequately define, express, or demonstrate what it is.

Welcome to our new hell!

Hard to explain when people cover their ears with their hands and hum to themselves, you know, the ones that know everything.

Sep 21, 2025 at 01:31 PM

RoamingScott
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p.77 #2 · which lens has the most 3D POP?

That was my entire point.

Kevner wrote:
Which ironically includes this site which the bot mined to formulate its response.😏

Sep 21, 2025 at 01:34 PM

gdanmitchell
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p.77 #3 · which lens has the most 3D POP?

RustyBug wrote:
And, the light passes THROUGH the LENS. You can't speak to the light (in photographic medium context) without acknowledging the light path, en route to the film plane, IS affected by the lens. That's like saying the jets on a carburetor don't matter, the car is all about gasoline and tires.

This point (along with others like it) is frequently offered as a discussion-ending truth. It is true, but it misses the point.

Indeed, the light does pass �THROUGH the LENS� (sic). But that does not negate my point at all, particularly if you read with some care. My point has never been that there is no difference between lenses. It has been and continues to be that the magnitude of the difference between the ostensible Best Pop Lens On The Planet and a whole slew of other fine lenses is negligible, not to mention highly subjective. (E.g. � you might note that after all of these pages of searching for the Holy Grail of POP� there is literally no agreement about what it is or which lens possesses it.)

The other critical point is that chasing after The Best Super Lens Ever In The Entire World is a diversion from investing time and energy in the factors that provide demonstrably significant differences between run-of-the-mill photographs and excellent photographs. Hint: It ain�t picking teh One Perfect Lens To Rule Them All. ;-)

- - -

Kevner wrote:
Which ironically includes this site which the bot mined to formulate its response.😏
Welcome to our new hell!

I have an instructive story about that.

Someone I know is fascinated by and researches various health-related issues and even blogs about them in depth at times.

This person asked an AI system for information about an issue that he had previously been interested in. He thought the reply looked familiar� and in a moment he realized that the text had basically come from one of his blog posts. A blog post from for which he had obtained information from a different AI.

So essentially one AI was mining another AI for its content.

Speaking of hell� ;-)

Edited on Sep 21, 2025 at 02:10 PM · View previous versions

Sep 21, 2025 at 01:56 PM

Kevner
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p.77 #4 · which lens has the most 3D POP?

Apologies for missing it. My wife reminds me that I�m pretty dense most times.

Kk

RoamingScott wrote:
That was my entire point.

Sep 21, 2025 at 01:57 PM

Nifty Fifty
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p.77 #5 · which lens has the most 3D POP?

mudlake wrote:
Hmm. We�re on a gear forum and you feel the need to belittle someone who is enthusiastic about a piece of gear he likes. I see from your posts you like to be blunt. So let me be blunt: leave this thread and don�t come back. (...)
In my opinion, there's a world of difference between someone who likes and praises his gear and speaks of his own impressions and feelings and someone who, like a seeing messiah, proclaims to the world in page-long pamphlets what is true, beautiful, and good in lens construction, and who, why, and for what reason is capable of developing it and presenting it to the world. And so, I could just as easily be the one who advises someone else to leave the thread, which, after all, is about gear and not proselytizing, but I don't presume to do such a thing.

Sep 21, 2025 at 02:28 PM

RustyBug
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p.77 #6 · which lens has the most 3D POP?

For those inclined, here's three different 40mm lenses from Voigtlander. Take note of the ratio of front element vs. rear element. Some are converging in size, others are diverging as the light passes through the light path.

Simply stated, do you think a converging vs. diverging design will distribute the rate of transition, the same? When we went to mirrorless, the throats of some bodies changed, from that of the historic film era. This then also opened up a variety of different design aspect opportunities, for other mfr's. This is a benefit that was derived from the removal of the mirror, which the M-Mount rangefinder enjoyed, whereas now all mfr's have more latitude in that regard (via mirrorless). Bear in mind, mirrorless was neophyte when this conversation was discussed 15 years ago, when I "dug deep" into the matter.

https://www.voigtlaender.de/lenses/vm/40-mm-12-8-nokton-aspherical/?lang=en

https://www.voigtlaender.de/lenses/vm/40-mm-11-4-nokton-classic/?lang=en

https://www.voigtlaender.de/lenses/vm/40-mm-11-2-nokton-ii/?lang=en

Then, take a walk through the Nokton thread and (yes, the Nokton is faster, but not even those stopped down kind of shots, too) take notice if you start to detect a theme.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1512530/300/

I've mentioned this lens before as having caught my attention in this regard. But, the salient point is that those three lenses are intentionally designed differently. At a sophomoric perspective, the design is a difference in size, but the decisions to distribute converging / diverging light path is more than about size alone.

While I can't speak to the level of someone like Karbe or Mandler regarding lens design, I do take note of the converging / diverging relationships as the light passes through the elements (also part of my studies many years ago with the aforementioned Zeiss glass, et al). During the "epic" thread, I searched out all the data sheets I could find (mostly from Zeiss) and began to "deconstruct" the math of the optics from the "producers" vs. the "non-producers", to look for trends. I've since "data dumped" the hard info, but as a result of that exercise, my resolve to the designers approach influences the effect ... well, you get the gist.

For those intrigued by the subject, I'd suggest comparing your favorite rendering / transitioning lenses against their element design. Also, the amount of spherical / ASPH relationships start to play in to things, too (similar to my previous reference to Vintage Line vs. Ulton / APO).

You might find certain designs present themselves to your tastes ... kinda like how some folks prefer oak in the wine ... strong, mild, none. Not everyone cares about such things, but for those who are intrigued by it, the 40's above may make for an introduction / primer for some.

P.S. Not sure why Voigtlander is showing TWO different designs on the Nokton page, but still the realization that converging / diverging / neutral collimated designs influence transition rates. Nuanced, sure ... why not. But, as with many things in life, some folks appreciate the nuance, others not so much.

Edited on Sep 21, 2025 at 04:11 PM · View previous versions

Sep 21, 2025 at 03:47 PM

Happydan
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p.77 #7 · which lens has the most 3D POP?

I will definitely agree to the POP factor that the Thypoch Simera 28 brings!
@00demontver00 posted some very impressive images on the thypoch review page
and @mudlake has also shared lots of stellar picture examples - thank you for all of those!

Still wont use it on my Sony as it is hardly adapted for the thicker sensor glass
and am opting for the CV 28 Color skopar in VM mount instead right now.

Thanks for all your opinions and insights!
Also, the SMC Takumar 55 1.4 renders so nice!
Ill add the Sony Zeiss 55 1.8 for pop factor

Sep 21, 2025 at 03:53 PM

Happydan
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p.77 #8 · which lens has the most 3D POP?

Having read the AI input that was posted by @Kevner, I find it very concise and a great overview of the pop subject - even though it doesnt go into details on lens design. Thanks for posting this - original idea

I avoid AI but am impressed with results that can come from it.

Kevner wrote:
So, out of curiosity I decided to ask my AI Overlord the answer to the query "What lens formulas produce the most 3D pop". What I found interesting was that it was almost exactly what we discussed back in the old 4x5 film darkroom days. So, here's you all go

AI Overview (Apple Safari - iPhone)

In photography, "3D pop" is a subjective term for the aesthetic impression that a subject in a two-dimensional image appears to stand out from the background. There is no single formula to create it; instead, it is a complex effect that results from the interplay of...Show more →

Sep 21, 2025 at 04:02 PM

mudlake
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p.77 #9 · which lens has the most 3D POP?

Nifty Fifty wrote:
In my opinion, there's a world of difference between someone who likes and praises his gear and speaks of his own impressions and feelings and someone who, like a seeing messiah, proclaims to the world in page-long pamphlets what is true, beautiful, and good in lens construction, and who, why, and for what reason is capable of developing it and presenting it to the world. And so, I could just as easily be the one who advises someone else to leave the thread, which, after all, is about gear and not proselytizing, but I don't presume to do such...Show more →

You can couch your bullying (and don�t kid yourself, that�s what you are doing) any way you want. If it makes you feel good about yourself to knock down someone else, you may want to do some introspection. Kindness goes a long way. Peace.

Sep 21, 2025 at 04:16 PM

goo0h
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p.77 #10 · which lens has the most 3D POP?

Some might find the length of this thread and of some of these posts to be tedious. If that�s you, the solution is simple: don�t follow it. Some, such as myself, find this discussion interesting.

Sep 21, 2025 at 04:36 PM

RustyBug
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p.77 #11 · which lens has the most 3D POP?

goo0h wrote:
Some, such as myself, find this discussion interesting.

+1

And (imo), that's what is supposed to be ... a discussion among folks that find it an interesting subject. And is, per the title, SUPPOSED to be about lenses. If folks want to talk about the OTHER tenets of photography (which have validity), why the incessant need to intervene and redirect the topic AWAY from OP's specific interest in lens contribution, is heavy on their agenda is

There is always the eternal "gear matters" vs. "no, it doesn't".

It just goes around in circles that when folks want to embrace the gear on a deeper perspective (and no, gear isn't a magic solution ... except, maybe in supertele ranks), there are always folks who feel compelled to refute the interests of others as being meaningless or without merit. Pick a topic: MF vs. FF vs APS-C vs. m43. 16 bit vs. 14 bit vs 12 bit. There are always some folks ready to tell others that amount it matters is too trivial to be worthy of conversation. And yet, mfr's continue to make those very differences ... hmmm, wonder why that is.

I get that "capturing the moment" or chasing "fleeting light" or "revealing human nature" has nothing to do with optical engineering design. But, those are different conversations, that are separate from the question of gear the OP began, specific to this thread. Best I know, we have REALLY SMART members among us. I'm quite sure they can READ the title of the thread and deduce it is SUPPOSED to be about LENSES ... rather, than telling others how wrong they are, incessantly.

Imo, if you don't want to discuss lenses ... then, don't. But, please have the politeness to your fellow members to allow those who do want to discuss them, to do so without the incessant interloping for the sake of interloping.

Although, without the interloping, the thread would only be 10 pages long.

My .02

Sep 21, 2025 at 06:05 PM

mudlake
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p.77 #12 · which lens has the most 3D POP?

RustyBug wrote:
+1

And (imo), that's what is supposed to be ... a discussion among folks that find it an interesting subject. And is, per the title, SUPPOSED to be about lenses. If folks want to talk about the OTHER tenets of photography (which have validity), why the incessant need to intervene and redirect the topic AWAY from OP's specific interest in lens contribution, is heavy on their agenda is

There is always the eternal "gear matters" vs. "no, it doesn't".

It just goes around in circles that when folks want to embrace the gear on a deeper perspective (and no, gear isn't...Show more →

Perfectly stated. 👊

Sep 21, 2025 at 06:55 PM

JohnDizzo15
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p.77 #13 · which lens has the most 3D POP?

RustyBug wrote:
+1

And (imo), that's what is supposed to be ... a discussion among folks that find it an interesting subject. And is, per the title, SUPPOSED to be about lenses. If folks want to talk about the OTHER tenets of photography (which have validity), why the incessant need to intervene and redirect the topic AWAY from OP's specific interest in lens contribution, is heavy on their agenda is

There is always the eternal "gear matters" vs. "no, it doesn't".

It just goes around in circles that when folks want to embrace the gear on a deeper perspective (and no, gear isn't...Show more →

3D doesn�t exist. Lenses don�t matter. Shoot with a phone and be a better photographer. 😂

Sep 21, 2025 at 07:59 PM

gdanmitchell
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p.77 #14 · which lens has the most 3D POP?

So, then, as we approach the 78th page of this search, � which lens has the most 3D POP?�

Sep 22, 2025 at 07:05 AM

chez
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p.77 #15 · which lens has the most 3D POP?

gdanmitchell wrote:
So, then, as we approach the 78th page of this search, � which lens has the most 3D POP?�

He�s back�.

Sep 22, 2025 at 08:34 AM

Steve Spencer
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p.77 #16 · which lens has the most 3D POP?

gdanmitchell wrote:
So, then, as we approach the 78th page of this search, � which lens has the most 3D POP?�

Hi Dan,

I think you have followed the thread, so you know that it isn't one lens, but lots of people have suggested that a number of lenses reliably can produce what some people see as 3D POP in their images if they pay attention to other important factors. These lenses generally produce this effect in people's estimation more than other good lenses when shot paying attention to other important factors.

I don't really have a horse in this race. I have followed the thread, but it isn't one of my major concerns for photography. As a psychologist who dabbles in the study of perception, however, I am interested in what leads people to make 3D perceptions. My own lenses that have led me to perceive 3D pop (or as I would prefer to call it the illusion of 3D) include:

Zeiss ZE 100 f/2 Macro
Zeiss ZM 35 f/1.4
Zeiss 100 f/3.5 C for Hasselblad
Zeiss 55 f/3.5 for Contax 645
Mamiya 55 f/2.8 C for 645
Voigtlander 110 f/2.5 Macro for Sony E mount

Not sure what to make of these lenses being mostly Zeiss lenses, but as I say it isn't a major photographic interest or concern of mine. Other people have other lists. There is some over lap with mine, but of course the correlation in what people see is only modest.

Sep 22, 2025 at 08:51 AM

RustyBug
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p.77 #17 · which lens has the most 3D POP?

A few links of examples of the VM 40/1.2 ... and a slew of other examples scattered throughout the thread.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1512530/296/
#11

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1512530/302/
#8

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1512530/293/
#13

But, there are just so many throughout this thread, in all kinds of different conditions / apertures. Some are the near mid focus, bokeh falloff variety. Others are the depth of the entire scene variety. That, and taken by a wide variety of different photographers. Some lenses are a bit "one trick pony" at specific distances, but the VM 40/1.2 seems to be well suited in many applications.

Here's the stats on this ONE lens.

300 Pages
6,000 Posts
2,000,000 Views

Far too many images in that thread that fit the bill to be ignored. And with stats like that ^ ... yeah, it must have good things going for it (even if not stated, as such).

Depending on your definition ... most extreme rendering vs. most likely to produce in a variety of use cases ... I'd put the VM 40/1.2 as a horse in the race (and I've never even shot with it yet).

Several other good choices to round out the field (as mentioned by others, along the way), too.

Sep 22, 2025 at 08:15 PM

Kevner
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p.77 #18 · which lens has the most 3D POP?

The majority of lenses I own were acquired for either architecture or larger scale landscape photography. That said I have four lenses that I picked expressly for different kinds of photography:

1) CV 40mm f1.2 Nokton E-Mount
2) Laowa 35mm f0.95 Argus E-Mount
3) TTArtisans 75mm Biotar M42
4) TTArtisans 100mm Trioplan M-Mount

The Argus, Nokton, and Biotar all are capable of producing images that have enhanced 3D qualities.

Sep 23, 2025 at 09:54 AM

philip_pj
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p.77 #19 · which lens has the most 3D POP?

So this issue appears to have clearly divided the stills photographic community - but not the cine commentary - and invited a degree of opprobrium to this holding minority views, nothing unusual there.

Looking across my research into this fundamental issue, after reviewing scores of cine-related sites and videos and PR material, I identified two models of 3D that are in use, though only the establishment view is in favor.

That one is being pushed heavily by the German giants of the industry, Leica and Zeiss. In summary, it involves huge micro-contrast (at the focal plane of course), with an indecently rapid descent into the all-encompassing and amorphous bokeh field. Many lenses appear to be encouraging cross-eyed visual anomalies, which is their way I guess of geting you to look only at the focal plane content.

They have managed to convince many that this is how to conduct photography with fast lenses (f2 and faster) at wide open (and near to it) aperture settings. That is remarkable in itself, because it flies in the face of the operation of human vision.

The alternative, which will inevitably win out given enough time, features smooth fade character off the plane and lens design that uses a range of features to impart genuine depth to the images. You don't lose out by having to only focus on subjects at ~f1.4 that have no other interest outside themselves in the image frame.

Of course, any fast lens can do this if the subject is close enough to the camera and other settings are in place (focal length, distance to objects in image space). But they got people to buy these lenses, is the point, despite the look being effectively a visual aberration itself - as a departure from natural vision.

Oct 17, 2025 at 10:50 PM

EB-1
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p.77 #20 · which lens has the most 3D POP?

philip_pj wrote:
That one is being pushed heavily by the German giants of the industry, Leica and Zeiss. In summary, it involves huge micro-contrast (at the focal plane of course), with an indecently rapid descent into the all-encompassing and amorphous bokeh field. Many lenses appear to be encouraging cross-eyed visual anomalies, which is their way I guess of geting you to look only at the focal plane content.

They have managed to convince many that this is how to conduct photography with fast lenses (f2 and faster) at wide open (and near to it) aperture settings. That is remarkable in itself, because...Show more →

I don't think either type of optical properties of the lens will win out. Computational rendering of the imaging characteristics away from the focal plane will take over for the most part, with a very small minority of photographers into the purely optical designs.

EBH

Oct 17, 2025 at 11:13 PM

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