Funny how this thread has shifted from a simple question of legal compliance and ethics into an obscure discussion of world politics . . topics nobody here can answer or do anything about except complain.
I believe the answer to the compliance and ethics issues have been well addressed and that it has been shown that the product meets the laws and accepted industry guidelines.
I believe it has also been established that what I do, as an American manufacturer, results in as many American jobs as resonantly possible have been retained, given global realities. and that the maximum amount of profits remain in the US economy and that one American manufacturer continues to exist while others are disappearing.
The question is raised about global discrimination and greed. I believe these questions are misguided and overtly negative and destructive, and that the real mechanism is one of national pride and patriotism . . . a natural and healthy phenomenon that drives every country and its citizens. Just as a sports team endeavors to succeed and win the championship for their college or city, as long as they follow the established rules they should be rewarded by the support of their community rather than being accused of being greedy racists and cheaters. This is the nature of competition.
In the end I believe Vagabond Mini will be a hugely successful American product and the silly arguments about the labeling and origin of the various components will become irrelevant and forgotten and the final judgement will be how well it works, what it costs, how well it is supported and whether users consider it a valid and worthwhile investment and tool or a piece of junk.
kenyee wrote:
ok..maybe Really Right Stuff, which is mostly a CNC operation, is close to a Made in the US, but I'd bet most of their materials come from outside the country or their supply chain gets it from outside...
RRS products are made from aluminum and they don't mine Bauxite in the USA. In 2007, Australia was one of the top producers of bauxite with almost one-third of the world's production, followed by China, Brazil, Guinea, and India.
So I guess that all you pixel peppers will say that RRS products aren't really made in the USA, 'cause the Bauxite was mined in Australia.
Paul Buff wrote:
Funny how this thread has shifted from a simple question of legal compliance and ethics into an obscure discussion of world politics . . topics nobody here can answer or do anything about except complain..
I think that the question was "does the product meet the threshold to be labeled 'Made in USA'?" I think the deflection and caveats fueled the point of view that they do not and that world politics were introduced as a deflection. Simple question, really.
Paul Buff wrote:
I believe the answer to the compliance and ethics issues have been well addressed and that it has been shown that the product meets the laws and accepted industry guidelines..
Absent someone disassembling one and tallying the components it appears they do meet the letter of the law. The spirit of the law is another question and might be more of a policy discussion...
Paul Buff wrote:
I believe it has also been established that what I do, as an American manufacturer, results in as many American jobs as resonantly possible have been retained, given global realities. and that the maximum amount of profits remain in the US economy and that one American manufacturer continues to exist while others are disappearing.
Without a doubt. I'm glad you do your thing, and your products, along with digital have opened up whole new possibilities to many, many thousands of photographers and enthusiasts.
Paul Buff wrote:
The question is raised about global discrimination and greed. I believe these questions are misguided and overtly negative and destructive, and that the real mechanism is one of national pride and patriotism . . . a natural and healthy phenomenon that drives every country and its citizens. Just as a sports team endeavors to succeed and win the championship for their college or city, as long as they follow the established rules they should be rewarded by the support of their community rather than being accused of being greedy racists and cheaters. This is the nature of competition.
Competition is great but the consumer should know what they are getting and where they are getting it from. For example, in Detroit there is a lot of screaming about buying American when in fact many domestic cars contain more foreign parts than my Toyota that's made in Kentucky.
Paul Buff wrote:
In the end I believe Vagabond Mini will be a hugely successful American product and the silly arguments about the labeling and origin of the various components will become irrelevant and forgotten and the final judgement will be how well it works, what it costs, how well it is supported and whether users consider it a valid and worthwhile investment and tool or a piece of junk.
I agree that the Vagabond Mini should be very successful, I think I might buy one when they are available. I would however be careful about dismissing your customers concerns as silly and irrelevant, especially since your business practices were questioned. But I agree, as long as the product works and is reasonably priced and good service is provided customers should be very happy.
Edit:
c.d.embrey wrote:
So I guess that all you pixel peppers will say that RRS products aren't really made in the USA, 'cause the Bauxite was mined in Australia.
That's just silly. I think the most analogous company would be Dell or Gateway from 10 years ago and what many customers did when they found out they could "roll their own" from the same parts. One cannot order a box of Bauxite and "roll their own" L bracket.
c.d.embrey wrote:
So I guess that all you pixel peppers will say that RRS products aren't really made in the USA, 'cause the Bauxite was mined in Australia.
I learned something new today...that makes 3 things Australia is famous for...beer, lambswool, and bauxite
Absent someone disassembling one and tallying the components it appears they do meet the letter of the law. The spirit of the law is another question and might be more of a policy discussion...
"Tallying" components is not the only criteria that qualifies a product for "Made in USA"
This legal question has tentacles, roots, definitions, etc. that connect all the way back to The Tariff Act of 1930 ... maybe further ... the complexity of which exceeds the scope of this forum. Determination of tariff assessment criteria isn't intended to be a guarantee or suggestion to consumers that an items was 100% designed, sourced, assembled, finished, etc. in the USA. The law has set forth legally defined standards regarding the variances from this errant supposition.
So while today's public opinion might want to be that is what "Made in USA" SHOULD have been ... that is not what "Made in USA" is. Instead, it was originally intended to help PROTECT American mfr's from the influx of importation via an economic offset in the form of tariff's added onto imports. Potecting American Mfr's IS 'the spirit of the law' regarding "Made in USA" in its origins.
Accordingly, it is not the mfr that is being contrary to the 'spirit of the law', but rather people trying to impose their opinion onto the 'spirit of the law' without actually knowing what the 'spirit of the law' really is derived from.
Suffice to say that using a layman's opinion approach to what they think it should be is folly and is totally missing the 'spirit of the law' ... which is to comply with the established law, lest we trend toward "Wild West" gunslinging anarchy where everyone wanted to be their own 'lawman'. In this relatively new cyber-world, it seems that "gunslinging anarchy" has transformed from bullets to words ... with a similar refusal to acknowledge the propriety of the law and those who are in compliance ... just because public opinion is 'get a rope' to quench their thirst.
NOTE: The FTC's website referenced by the OP and others includes the following disclaimer regarding the information on the FTC website:
"This publication is the Federal Trade Commission staff’s view of the law’s requirements. It is not binding on the Commission."
Translation ... the FTC website is NOT the law ... only someone else's opinion reworded into an oversimplified non-legally binding context.
The OP's question was still a good one ... I've tried to provide a deservedly good response.
RustyBug,
So, you aren't an attorney and the FTC website you referenced has a disclaimer that it is not actual law either? What are you using other than the Layman's opinion approach? Do you have you have any additional training, authority, or experience that makes your layman's/non-binding opinion any more valid than the next poster? You've made it clear that only an attorney has the wherewithal to navigate the legal nuance and that you aren't an attorney, also you suggest that trying infer the spirit of the law is folly unless you know the law. I feel like I am discussing iocane powder with a Sicilian.
The OP's question was a legal one and a rhetorical one. How does a pile of 117 parts and components get labeled "Made in USA" when 106 of those parts are made in China?
Edit:
On the bigger picture and purely as a rhetorical exercise, how would it look if (someone) bought a Vagabond Mini and posted an unboxing video on youtube. Imagine a HD video of the box arriving, with "Made In USA" stamped on the side, being opened and the "Made In USA" labeled Vagabond being removed from the box. Imagine the video of the unit slowly being disassembled with a screwdriver and a de-soldering tool and having each individual parts origin being noted, with a running tally at the bottom third? Would the "Spirit of the Law" be irrelevant then?
I think that would be more of a commentary of US law and perhaps PCB would get unfair attention, but it would make a very valid point to us laymen.
ddavid wrote:
RustyBug,
So, you aren't an attorney and the FTC website you referenced has a disclaimer that it is not actual law either? What are you using other than the Layman's opinion approach?
He has something called "experience" as he mentioned in a post earlier in this thread.
Gives him a lot more authority/credence than you or I would have...that is, unless you think experience is worthless, in which case how old are you and exactly what do you do?
What is the purpose of the whole discussion. We all know the IRS has no clear interpretation of the laws passed by a Congress that doesn't understand them and didn't bother to read them because they were written by lobbyist/attorneys for gigantic global corporations who couldn't care less about US citizens.
As a manufacturer all I can do is to interpret them as accurately as I can. A preponderance of the references cited here indicate I have labeled properly and within industry standards. If the FTC doesn't know what the law is, what are all the opinions here worth? Is this a photography forum or an international trade forum?
Paul Buff wrote:
...
I believe the answer to the compliance and ethics issues have been well addressed and that it has been shown that the product meets the laws and accepted industry guidelines.
I would disagree. Strongly. I do not think it has been shown that the product "meets the laws and accepted industry guidelines" and that it qualifies for being prominently labeled "Made in USA". And even if the product is in technical compliance with applicable regulations, I still believe such labeling to be misleading as it has been established that all major component parts are manufactured offshore.
...In the end I believe Vagabond Mini will be a hugely successful American product...
No argument that it will be a hugely successful product though one made largely of foreign-made parts with final assembly performed in the US.
ddavid wrote:
That's just silly. I think the most analogous company would be Dell or Gateway from 10 years ago and what many customers did when they found out they could "roll their own" from the same parts. One cannot order a box of Bauxite and "roll their own" L bracket.
No, it's ABSURD ! Sorta like most of this thread is ABSURD !
Paul Buff wrote:
As a manufacturer all I can do is to interpret them as accurately as I can. A preponderance of the references cited here indicate I have labeled properly
No they don't.
and within industry standards. If the FTC doesn't know what the law is, what are all the opinions here worth? Is this a photography forum or an international trade forum?
So you've labeled it the way that suits you best, (irrespective of reality), and you don't think anyone can prove that you're not right?
Hey - Maybe this thread might cause a revolution. When the Layman can see that adhering to the law is a load of twaddle - what is the point in it when the Layman was responsible for the law in the first place?
Just shows.. You can fool some of the people some of the time, but..
From Ian, ('pussie'land) - don't you wish you lived here!
tetrode wrote:
I still believe such labeling to be misleading as it has been established that all major component parts are manufactured offshore.
Umm...huh?
I thought we all agreed that the point of the Made In US "labelling" was misleading in just about any product nowadays? The politicians want it done that way so you don't feel that badly that just about nothing is truly "Made in the US" nowadays.
