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Archive 2010 · The future of pro photography?

  
 
rhyder
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p.2 #1 · The future of pro photography?


It seems that none of you have realized how stupid the questioners are. What shutter speed? what aperture? In the end its about the image.

Cameras have become much easier to use. If one clicks the shutter enough, one will occassionally get a very good photo.

You guys forget that Cartier Bresson used a simple camera and didn't do his own processing. He still stood out among his contemporaries. I would postulat that he would give some of the same answers............



Dec 12, 2010 at 08:39 AM
nathanlake
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p.2 #2 · The future of pro photography?


RustyBug wrote:
DOL expectations for the profession is actually a 12% growth rather than a decline through 2018. Given the magnitude of 'doom & gloom' banter that can be found around ... I've tried to objectively determine what market forces are largely in play on the issue from an economic model ... and am offering those for consideration to others ... so they might use them in their assessment of their own situation.





You need to look at what is growing by 12%. That is the number of people that have business licenses to work as a photographer. It takes 30 minutes to get a business license and at some point, every Uncle Bob considers getting one and becoming a pro.

I would like to see some numbers that show how many of those businesses are able to survive three years. That is the number I would expect to shrink over the next 20 years.




Dec 12, 2010 at 10:20 AM
nathanlake
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p.2 #3 · The future of pro photography?


rhyder wrote:
It seems that none of you have realized how stupid the questioners are. What shutter speed? what aperture? In the end its about the image.

Cameras have become much easier to use. If one clicks the shutter enough, one will occassionally get a very good photo.

You guys forget that Cartier Bresson used a simple camera and didn't do his own processing. He still stood out among his contemporaries. I would postulat that he would give some of the same answers............



That is my point. Better cameras allow non-professionals to occasionally get the great results. It might be more technology and luck than talent, but it does happen. The better the cameras get, the more likely it is to happen.



Dec 12, 2010 at 10:22 AM
RustyBug
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p.2 #4 · The future of pro photography?


I totally agree with:

tecnological advances making it easier
GWAC's having an undocumented influence
Uncle Bob's getting lucky
DOL info being too generalized
"staying power' / turnover rate likely to be significant
my analogy is far from perfect ... but still OEM marketing in the photogrpahic industry is monstrous and DOES influence buyer's expectations (economic non-price determinant) ... otherwise they wouldn't doing it so aggressively (data to back it in the paper)

While I absolutely agrre with this and much more ... that still doesn't identify the category of market forces from which they are derived. My efforts have been to understand them categorically. From that one can incorporate how that impacts their own business model ... and subsequently make adjustments to provide counter market force to your own advantage.

Consider this ... routinely, people have asked for business advice in the advent of GWAC/CL growth. Historical responses range from lower you price to compete to raise your price to set yourself apart. When asked about whether or not now is a good time to get into the market, some have said, "The sky is falling" while others say "Come on in, the water's fine."

While those may both be considered polar opinion, I'm trying to gain/provide understanding regarding market forces. People can make better understanding / assessment of their own situation ... and not simply be left to a variety of opinions ... ala 'give a man a fish vs. teach a man to fish'.


Subject in this particular thread ... OEM marketing does influence buyer's expectations ... and the number of Uncle Bob's / GWAC's testing the waters. This is but one piece of the puzzle. If someone chooses to ignore / refute the impact of OEM marketing ... that is their choice. I am simply convinced that while you cannot control OEM marketing ... you can/should address the categorical issue of buyer's expectations.

# of sellers was certainly the leading factor from the survey taken here, which of course, you have no control over. Taste and preferences of buyers (i.e. technical adequacy) rouded out the top three along with buyer's expectations.

Of those top three market factors, which one do you have the greatest possibility of influencing and how do you think they are currently being influenced? I'm of the persuasion that OEM marketing (i.e. OP) is a factor. Not becasue teh camera takes better pictures ... but because of the influence on those three factors.



Edited on Dec 12, 2010 at 12:03 PM · View previous versions



Dec 12, 2010 at 10:47 AM
RDKirk
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p.2 #5 · The future of pro photography?


nathanlake wrote:
Sorry, but I disagree. For much of the market, it does not need to be technically adequate or artistic. Most of the photos taken in the world end up as 4x6 prints in somebody's photo album or a 400x600 low-res JPG on a photo sharing site. Does not require much of a picture to meet those needs.


And what had I just said?

"If all they want is a record image, Uncle Bob is good enough, and we need to let Uncle Bob own the record image sphere."



Dec 12, 2010 at 11:56 AM
RDKirk
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p.2 #6 · The future of pro photography?


rhyder wrote:
It seems that none of you have realized how stupid the questioners are. What shutter speed? what aperture? In the end its about the image.

Cameras have become much easier to use. If one clicks the shutter enough, one will occassionally get a very good photo.

You guys forget that Cartier Bresson used a simple camera and didn't do his own processing. He still stood out among his contemporaries. I would postulat that he would give some of the same answers............


First, it's already been said that the ad is intended to serve the sole commercial purpose of selling P&S cameras to casual amateurs (note my adjective: casual amateurs). In that aim, they wrote "questions" specifically addressing the elementary technical concerns of casual amateurs, not the "higher level" technical and artistic concerns of advanced or serious amateurs and professionals. The "questions" in the ad serve the commercial requirements of the ad.

Nobody here forgets Bresson.

The broader point being made here is that those casual amateurs patronized professional photographers in the past precisely because of those elementary technical concerns, and the obviation of those concerns by a technically advanced camera also obviates the patronage of those casual amateurs for professional photography.

My point, and the point some others also raise, is that professional photographers must recognize and resign ourselves to the loss of patronage that existed only because of the historical technical difficulty of photography, and move to compete in other aspects of the field.

Being professional is no longer merely technical reliability. The person who intends to make a living at professional photography now and in the future must identify what genres require more than mere technical reliability and improve his skills to meet those requirements. Then he must determine which markets are willing to pay for more than mere technical reliability and sell himself to those markets.



Dec 12, 2010 at 12:07 PM
Arka
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p.2 #7 · The future of pro photography?


RDKirk wrote:
The broader point being made here is that those casual amateurs patronized professional photographers in the past precisely because of those elementary technical concerns, and the obviation of those concerns by a technically advanced camera also obviates the patronage of those casual amateurs for professional photography.

My point, and the point some others also raise, is that professional photographers must recognize and resign ourselves to the loss of patronage that existed only because of the historical technical difficulty of photography, and move to compete in other aspects of the field.

Being professional is no longer merely technical reliability. The person who
...Show more

This is exactly what I was getting at, though I failed to express it as concisely and eloquently as you have.

Arka C.



Dec 12, 2010 at 10:21 PM
rhyder
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p.2 #8 · The future of pro photography?


RDKirk wrote:
Nobody here forgets Bresson.

My point, and the point some others also raise, is that professional photographers must recognize and resign ourselves to the loss of patronage that existed only because of the historical technical difficulty of photography, and move to compete in other aspects of the field.



Your point actually mimics "You guys forget that Cartier Bresson used a simple camera and didn't do his own processing. He still stood out among his contemporaries. I would postulat that he would give some of the same answers............". Cartier saw the then new technology and made a move to take advantage of it.

This situation has been with us since the Brownie hit the market. This is nothing new. It's a funny commercial. My pointing out how stupid the questions were was meant to point out many of you were taking this ad (and maybe yourselves) WAY too seriously. Hey boys.....the loss of patronage happened a long time ago. The paradigm shifted long before you saw this ad.

I wonder how many of you got into photography with the advent of digital? Ever shoot film? Ever shoot sheet film? Can you imagine how the pros felt when 35mm film in ROLLS were introduced? Shooting an image was never really difficult, it was the processing that held many back.

This ad isn't about the future of pro photography, it isn't even about the present. It a relection of what's been happening for years.



Dec 13, 2010 at 08:36 AM
RDKirk
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p.2 #9 · The future of pro photography?


I wonder how many of you got into photography with the advent of digital? Ever shoot film? Ever shoot sheet film? Can you imagine how the pros felt when 35mm film in ROLLS were introduced? Shooting an image was never really difficult, it was the processing that held many back.

I only sold my Horseman 4x5 and lenses about 18 months ago. I've still got a lot of processing equipment and accessories. You need any 4x5 film hangers? Deep tanks? A Gralab 300? How about some film holders--I've still got 25 Riteway and Fidelity film holders I'm not using. How about a 4x5 Polaroid film holder? I guess I'll put it all on eBay sooner or later.

Or maybe not. Heck, I only sold my Mamiya Universal (the last press camera I owned) about five years ago, and I sold my RZ67 cameras only earlier this year. I still have the Exacta Varex, my first SLR, that I bought from a pawn shop in 69. I probably should have kept the Universal.

I started shooting weddings with 35mm back in 1972, when most guys were still using medium format and some were still shooting with Speed Graphics. Actually, I used 35mm (a Miranda Sensorex at the time) for the "action" shots and a Mamiya press camera (the old "bedpan with a lens") for the posed group shots.

So, yeah, I was earning money with film cameras before digital, and I've even shot sheet film.

I'd quibble a bit as to whether using a 4x5 view camera or a Mamiya Century was "really difficult." "Really difficult" is quite relative. If you handed someone a box of sheet film, a bunch of sheet film holders, and pointed him to a view camera--with no other information or instructions whatsoever--he was not going to end up with any sharp, well-exposed photographs that day. With the Lumix, I'd certainly expect it.

And only a serious amateur or professional was even going to learn how to use a view camera effectively, or for that matter, even a manual 35mm SLR. That's why Instamatics sold like crazy. SLRs didn't begin to get popular with the mass market until Canon got exposure automated sufficiently in the late 70s.



Dec 13, 2010 at 09:08 AM
rhyder
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p.2 #10 · The future of pro photography?


I still have all my film cameras, but got rid of my darkroom a long time ago...Do I miss it? yeah, a little. Would I go back? No. Moved on. The only reason I asked who had shot film is to point out how photo technology has been constantly changing.

The Lumix is just another Brownie....a really good Brownie. It isn't whether the equipment (cameras or darkrooms) was hard to use (they aren't really).....many non photo things are just as difficult...its that most people didn't have the money or room for a darkroom or to buy a more sophisticated camera. For most it wasn't worth the bother.

This ad isn't really about someone getting a Lumix and turning pro, most peolpe will see it for what it is, an easier to use camera. The ad people saw it as a clever, funny way to sell a camera. Its a joke!! Its supposed to be funny.!

This ad isn't about the future of pro photography, it isn't even about the present. It a relection of what's been happening for years.



Dec 13, 2010 at 10:26 AM
RustyBug
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p.2 #11 · The future of pro photography?


rhyder wrote
Hey boys.....the loss of patronage happened a long time ago. The paradigm shifted long before you saw this ad.

This ad isn't about the future of pro photography, it isn't even about the present. It a relection of what's been happening for years.


Agreed ... and this will continue "To infinity & beyond !!!"

That's why I find it important that we understand economic dynamics of how these OEM marketing influence the market. They've been around for years at EVERY technological advance and they'll never go away. It serves us well to understand to what degree they impact the market ... AND to what degree they don't.



Dec 13, 2010 at 11:51 AM
Micky Bill
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p.2 #12 · The future of pro photography?


The funniest thing about the commercial IMO is how close the questions are to the ones you regularly see here on these forums. I have also heard some pretty experienced people at a supposedly professional event ask Greg Heilser pretty much the same questions. There was a slight groan from some of the other people but the question was asked....

And as for the "there are no stupid questions" myth....yes there are. Ask any teacher



Dec 13, 2010 at 11:26 PM
Arka
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p.2 #13 · The future of pro photography?


Micky Bill wrote:
The funniest thing about the commercial IMO is how close the questions are to the ones you regularly see here on these forums. I have also heard some pretty experienced people at a supposedly professional event ask Greg Heilser pretty much the same questions. There was a slight groan from some of the other people but the question was asked....

And as for the "there are no stupid questions" myth....yes there are. Ask any teacher


Ah yes, the "technical details please" post, or "can we talk about the tech specs and not the subject please? This is a photography forum."

Arka C.



Dec 14, 2010 at 02:09 PM
Kyle Yates
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p.2 #14 · The future of pro photography?


Hi all
True with digital cameras and Mobile phones you can get more SNAPS but there is still a HUGE market out there for specialized quality photography such as Corporate Products / catalogs, medical shots, scientific research shots, travel destinations and even sport.

Give any person the best camera in the woirld and just ask him / her to go to the local park and get some really good SOCCER (Football) shots of youngsters playing a Sunday Morning league game -- and this is much EASIER than shooting say at a PREMIERSHIP stadium.


The non pro probably wont capture those real shots for example when the ball goes into the net just after a penalty has been taken.

Pro photography has changed --will it die --No I don't think so for an instant.

just because technology out there exists so people in theory CAN take pictures like a pro doesn't mean that they will succeed in doing so regularly --even if they do get a lucky shot or two.

cheers
-k



Dec 14, 2010 at 03:20 PM
JWilsonphoto
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p.2 #15 · The future of pro photography?


Lots of great points made in this discussion. Certainly we have witnessed a revolution in our industry over the last five years. Commercially speaking the fact that a person can spend 600 bucks on a digital slr, go out and spin wheels and dials until something 'passable" pops up on the preview screen, has diluted the market. Before the days of zeros and ones, a person who wanted to try to enter the pro arena had to know something about exposure and composition because there was no instant feedback. Joe Blow was reluctant to jump into a commercial assignment with minimal skills because he was going to have some skin in the game in the form of film and processing costs at the very least. He or she wouldn't want to go out and risk several hundred dollars of their own capital unless they had at least a basic skill level that gave them some confidence that they would come up with images the client would actually pay for. Today, all you hear is "I love digital because i can just shoot and delete until I get something I like" Back in the day, the approach was a bit different. You had to know that your skill level was up to the task because you weren't going to see what you were shooting until a few hours to a few days later at your photo lab. Depending upon what format you were shooting you might have a Polaroid to give you some level of comfort, but they were pretty marginal when compared to a digital preview screen. My point here is that digital technology has emboldened thousands, if not tens of thousands of photographers to stick their collective toes in the "pro" market.

You can wax optimistic all you want about professionalism, quality and composition, but the financial impact across the spectrum of people who earn their living as photographers has been substantial. The global financial implosion further complicates that picture by reducing the discretionary income families and companies have for photography. When a family is navigating uncertain financial times, Mom or Dad's digital camera is just fine for special events and holidays. Contrast that with a period of financial plenty where people don't think much of spending 500 to several thousand dollars having family portraits done. Companies have to have photography to promote their products and services, but when their sales are in the tank, Joe in shipping who is a hobbyist and will shoot for nothing or next to it, will generally do just fine as opposed to hiring a talented corporate shooter for several thousand dollars a day plus expenses.

Make no mistake about it, there's a whole new crop of novice photographers who have dreams of going pro, and some of them are pretty darn good, having been sped along the path by digital instant feedback. Since 2008 well over 50% of the photographers in the DFW Metroplex who made their living shooting professionally have just evaporated. This figure takes into account all the major markets from family portraiture to commercial work like architecture and annual reports. Over the last two years I have run into bidding scenarios where photographers who had day rates of three to five thousand are quietly whispering numbers like $1,000 to $1,500.

My work is pretty specialized, and I've been shooting commercially for over thirty years so I'm blessed with a number of advantages over much of my competition. Architecture, especially interior work requires a substantial investment in camera gear and lighting along with a pretty steep learning curve. My corporate work rolls on because I'm able to fly in, scope out a location, set up, have a CEO duck in for three minutes and get what the client wants. They'll still pay pretty good rates for that experience and efficiency. My other major market is aviation, lots of people want to shoot fast cars, cool planes, screaming motorcycles and they'll do it for free, but when a client needs someone to orchestrate an assignment that puts millions of dollars worth of airplanes and a half dozen lives at risk flying in formation, the field narrows to a very few. Basically RD hit the nail on the head. Choose something that few people can do and then get so good at it that the number of people who could come anywhere close to what you do and how you do it is so small it isn't even a factor. Absent the cultivation of a rare niche, there will certainly be people who rise to the top and succeed, but it's a dog eat dog field where the average income ranges from $20,910.00 to $42,300. The good news is that after ten to nineteen years in the profession the average income soars to just over 50 grand. Let's see, 10K for health insurance, couple of grand for liability and camera gear coverage, a vehicle, oh yeah and camera gear, a web presence, marketing materials, peripherals, computers, printers, Wacom Tablets, memory cards, back up hard drives, gas (the kind your vehicle needs and the kind you'll get from your work schedule), gee! the average pro in the US with a decade or more of shooting experience is taking home about 25K after taxes. Even though that probably still makes you "wealthy" in "OBamaworld", the guy behind the counter at the QT is making more per hour than you are in this scenario.

"Just Sayin'"

JW



Dec 23, 2010 at 10:53 PM
graycat
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p.2 #16 · The future of pro photography?


Technology has made quality photography available to the masses. Technology has made some professional photographers careers more secure while it has decimated many others’. Mr. Wilson’s point about getting good at something only a few people can do is quite accurate and consistent with most other professions. Anyone can pack groceries or stack boxes but few are capable of becoming physicians. The reality of the matter is that for most pro photographers their market share is getting smaller and this will continue unless King Obama mandates the purchase of professional, unionized photography services by each person in the country!


Dec 24, 2010 at 06:45 AM
rhyder
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p.2 #17 · The future of pro photography?


"King Obama mandates the purchase of professional, unionized photography services by each person in the country! "

Reported.

This thread has nothing to do with politics.



Dec 24, 2010 at 12:56 PM
JWilsonphoto
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p.2 #18 · The future of pro photography?


Maybe not but the politics of the day have one heck of a lot to do with the death of millions of small businesses, so it does fit into the topic of the future of photography!


Dec 25, 2010 at 09:26 PM
graycat
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p.2 #19 · The future of pro photography?


QUOTE: "Maybe not but the politics of the day have one heck of a lot to do with the death of millions of small businesses, so it does fit into the topic of the future of photography!"


So true, well said.



Dec 25, 2010 at 09:36 PM
rhyder
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p.2 #20 · The future of pro photography?


Actually.....this all started with deregulation during the Reagan years....further deregulation with Clinton....8 years of excesses during the Bush years......

That's the truth.



Dec 26, 2010 at 08:11 AM
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