fredmiranda.com

Moderated by: Fred Miranda

New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site

New Feature: SMS Notification alert

New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist

FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1 2 3 … 12

14 end

Archive 2010 · Canon to Sony?...

adam613
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.13 #1 · Canon to Sony?...

hans98ko wrote:
Well again I might be totally wrong.
You see focusing can be affected by the IBIS damping and tracking speed because when it is set to LV it uses contrast focusing. So both IBIS and focusing must be in syn, which I think is not an easy thing to do.

Unless you have an A33 or A55, which are LV-only with a separate PSAF sensor.

Nov 26, 2010 at 03:13 PM

schristie11
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.13 #2 · Canon to Sony?...

Whoever said LV is not a pro feature is mistaken.
I know a lot of people who use the 10 magnified live view for focus accuracy with macro work on other bodies, I'm not sure if any Sony bodies have this feature tho.

Nov 26, 2010 at 07:20 PM

schristie11
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.13 #3 · Canon to Sony?...

schristie11 wrote:
Heh, you all can attack me if that helps you sleep better at night.

AhamB wrote:
Of course we attack you; you're obviously bent on going against the grain of this forum.
You're a troll because you're just posting to provoke reactions, not to have an actual discussion. You could have voiced your opinion in a single post but you keep spreading the same thing out over countless posts.

You are guilty of the exact same thing sir, and you seem to insist on having the last word even if it has to be an insult. lmao
I have refrained from insulting anyone here, it is beneath me.

I'm not a troll, I was repeating myself since no one would answer legit questions I had and other times when different people tried to contradict a point I was trying to make.
It is only fair I have a turn to rebuttal as they did, that is the joy of internet forums.
I was also asking questions to learn from your knowledge, and to provoke conversation, not to provoke attack.
However, it seems that SOME people are so emo they can only attack when confronted with an adversarial opinion.

Nov 26, 2010 at 07:26 PM

Utahlefty
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.13 #4 · Canon to Sony?...

Steve,

If I'm reading your profile correctly, you currently own:

a (10MP) 1DIII
the 16-35, 24-70, 100-400 L (and a tamron 28-75)

your wishlist includes (but is not limited to) a 24L, 85L, 135L, 300, and 800 L

Sony makes all but the 800L currently, and currently ALL of the Canons you actually own (and most of the ones on your wishlist) are judged to be inferior to the Zeiss/Sony by a majority of evaluators.

perhaps you could post some photos to illustrate your position that the Canon 16-35/24-70/100-400/24/85/135/ and 300 are superior the the Zeiss/Sony?

based on what you own and what you want, Sony would seem to be a no-brainer for you......

Nov 26, 2010 at 09:00 PM

sebboh
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.13 #5 · Canon to Sony?...

schristie11 wrote:
Whoever said LV is not a pro feature is mistaken.
I know a lot of people who use the 10 magnified live view for focus accuracy with macro work on other bodies, I'm not sure if any Sony bodies have this feature tho.

numerous people said that when it first came out (i believe canon and nikon may have actually said it themselves), and yes they were all wrong. magnified live view is the most accurate way to focus for landscape shooting. and yes, sony has it on their newer bodies, but not any of their FF frames.

Nov 26, 2010 at 10:02 PM

adam613
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.13 #6 · Canon to Sony?...

sebboh wrote:
numerous people said that when it first came out (i believe canon and nikon may have actually said it themselves), and yes they were all wrong. magnified live view is the most accurate way to focus for landscape shooting. and yes, sony has it on their newer bodies, but not any of their FF frames.

I don't think Canon said it ever...the first Canon body to have LV was the 1DIII.

Nov 26, 2010 at 11:05 PM

hans98ko
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.13 #7 · Canon to Sony?...

Went through the steps an OIS and an IBIS takes to get focus and found out that IBIS is a lot more complex and time consuming.

Here are my asumptions base on focusing a subject (+) on a square matrix of pixels defind by the manufacturer on the focusing point of the sensor.

For OIS the stabalization group of elements will constantly place the image of the subject a + in the middle of the square matrix on the focusing point of the sensor. So focusing can quickly be done with both focusing and OIS information coming from the sensor (uni-directional).

For IBIS the subject a + will fall in the middle of the square matrix of pixels in the beginning but will shift to a slightly different position on the matrix as the IBIS move the sensor around. So here they will have to calculate the shifted position and at the same time compare the contrast with the previous position. This I think is a lot more complex because here the lens is trying to focus with the information coming from the sensor while at the same time the sensor is trying to control the IBIS with the image coming from the lens (multi-directional).

That is why I think we need to have synchronization between the tracking speed and focusing speed. And we must remember that it must be short or users will complain about shutter lag and slow response.

I had no experience with the A33 or the A55 but I do think that an external focusing aid will be needed to speed up the process for IBIS Live View.
So adam613 you brought out an issue that point to the coming of a new Pro camera possibly the A950 to solve the LV issue.

Nov 26, 2010 at 11:17 PM

hans98ko
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.13 #8 · Canon to Sony?...

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/958222

OwlsEyes wrote:
There is a bit of humor here for me, as I actually posted the original question about a move from Canon to Sony on the Alt forum.

Before I comment, I want to make this clear... my interest in switching is not a reflection of canon, canon's color, canon's interface, or canon's lenses... I have pondered a switch as a way to stimulate some new photographic energy. I figured that a move to another system might force me to think a little more about the process... maybe add some energy to stale ideas.

Regarding Canon, color and the 1DsII... I actually like...Show more →

Talking about humor, I really laugh when certain poster here were being called troll when the poster specifically stated that he had a nearly new 1DsII.

So I think the OP had already decided which path to take, and all of us had fallen into a TROLL TRAP by calling each other troll.

Case Closed

Nov 27, 2010 at 02:59 AM

OwlsEyes
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.13 #9 · Canon to Sony?...

Well it appears that my original post about a potential switch has wandered endlessly into the FM-Alt Abyss

It is clear that people are quite passionate about their gear choice and investment. I, on the other hand, am far less passionate about the gear and more so about my subject... the environment. I am a nature generalist w/ an emphasis on conservation and educational photography (I am a teacher/ecologist... source of income to support my under-funded photo endeavors).

As you may (or may not) recall, I was looking to shake things up a bit... stimulate the creative bug/spark the flame/make it new again/... well you get the idea. Having been a long time Contax/Hasselblad shooter in the 80's and 90's ... what we all now refer to as the dark ages of film... I had been nostalgic for my long-gone Zeiss optics. I'm not one to go the alt route as most of my shooting is fast and spontaneous... so I began to look at Sony... and dare I say... Nikon. I was particularly intrigued by the 135 f1.8 Zeiss lens... I once owned a 135 f2 zeiss in the C/Y mount and loved the lens. Sony's 850 w/ 24mp & gentle price was appealing. However, as I began to search for compliments to this pair, I found myself looking at the varied 300 f2.8 options. The Sony/Minolta SSM would be ideal, but at $5500-$6500 new and $4700 used, I could not swing such a large investment. Knowing that the SSM's were out, I checked into the older High-Speed "screw-driver" models. While they would do the job, they are definitely a major step below the performance that I have been getting from my 300 f2.8IS. Had Sony decided to re-issue the older Minolta 400mm f4.5, I would probably be shooting w/ the 850 today. Unfortunately, this lens is nearly impossible to find on the used market, but it hits a sweet spot for the nature shooter.

Given the above, my only option was to find a "switcher"... none to be found... Go Nikon... not different enough... or reinvent my Canon gear... the solution. In the time since my original post, I sold my 17-40L & 70-200 f4L and purchased an older 24 f3.5L T/S (no clue how to use it, but I'll learn), 50 f1.4USM (fast aperture... not as good as the Zeiss manual, but AF) and 100 f2.8 macro. These will be lenses dedicated to my 1DsII and I will continue to match my 300 f2.8IS + converters to my 7D.

In the end, I did not have the revolution that I was seeking, but I think that I have managed to bust half of my paradigm. Well I'm off to the St. Croix River to figure out how to use this T/S thing.
thanks for all of the advice and entertainment.

regards,
bruce

Nov 27, 2010 at 08:35 AM

Vern Dewit
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.13 #10 · Canon to Sony?...

OwlsEyes wrote:
In the end, I did not have the revolution that I was seeking, but I think that I have managed to bust half of my paradigm. Well I'm off to the St. Croix River to figure out how to use this T/S thing.
thanks for all of the advice and entertainment.

regards,
bruce

Good luck with the T/S! They are fun and not nearly has hard to use as you might think. That 24mm is a really good lens.

Nov 27, 2010 at 11:37 AM

schristie11
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.13 #11 · Canon to Sony?...

Utahlefty wrote:
Steve,

If I'm reading your profile correctly, you currently own:

a (10MP) 1DIII
the 16-35, 24-70, 100-400 L (and a tamron 28-75)

your wishlist includes (but is not limited to) a 24L, 85L, 135L, 300, and 800 L

Sony makes all but the 800L currently, and currently ALL of the Canons you actually own (and most of the ones on your wishlist) are judged to be inferior to the Zeiss/Sony by a majority of evaluators.

perhaps you could post some photos to illustrate your position that the Canon 16-35/24-70/100-400/24/85/135/ and 300 are superior the the Zeiss/Sony?

based on what you own and what you want, Sony would...Show more →

I have actually considered the Sony a900 as a potential since they also offer many of these lenses except
the Canon MPE 65 5x Macro and I really cant afford a $6000 500mm lens anytime soon, though someday I hope to.
That is why the 400 f/5.6 form Canon is a god-send for me.

Nevertheless, the overturning thing I really love about the Canon line is honestly is the 1D full body grips.
I switch form portrait to landscape often and it makes it so easy and feels solid.
I have tried all the brands bodies + grips and I hate them. Lol
The handling of a camera body is very important to me.
That is one reason I rented a number of cameras before I bought each body I owned.

That list on my profile is nearly accurate but out of date.

The Wish list is nearly accurate though: Canon 1Ds III Canon MPE 65 5x Macro Canon 180L Macro Canon 14L MK II Canon TSE 17mm Canon 35 f/1.4L Canon 50 f/1.0L Canon 135 f/2L Canon 70-200 f/2.8 MK II Canon 300 f/4L IS Canon 400 f/5.6 Canon 300 f/2.8L IS Canon 800 f/4L IS

I�m not sure why you thought the 24L and 85L were on my wish list -
I owned the 24L but never wanted the 85L.
I would add the 35 f/1.4L to my wish list though.
I have reconsidered and think I�d probably go to the 600L instead of the 800L.

In 2007, I started buying all new gear from the Nikon gear stuff I had, to go digital.
I started with a Rebel XSi to test the waters on the cheap.
It came with the Canon EF-S 28-135, and then I tried to upgrade to the Canon 28-200 USM, but hated it so got the Canon EF-S 18-85 instead.
I was hooked and got the 28-300L, 24L, 50 1.8.
I expanded the next summer to a 5D 85 1.8, 24-105L, 24-70L, 100 f/2.8L, 70-200L, 100-400L
I then got the 1D II N and then sold it and bought a 7D and a 1D III and a 16-35L.
I kept the 24-70L or 100-400 on the 1D III usually.
Then I picked up a Tamron 28-75 for a light small kit on the 7D.
I made plans to get a 400 f/5.6 and 14L or 17 TSE and swap both the 7D for a 1DIII for a 1Ds III.

However, I had to sell it all for a life-changing move to the other side of the country.

When I can get back into new gear, I am not sure I�ll go to Canon again, but it is likely, since many of the lens formats I love are available in the Canon brand.

I picture me going to a 1Ds III, or 5D III if it is out, with a typical combo of lenses:
24-70L and 70-200 f/2.8 MKII and 400 f/5.6 and 14L or the new 8-16 fisheye or 16-35 f/2.8 MK II.
I have thought about picking up another 28-300L too.

-Steve

Edited on Nov 27, 2010 at 01:33 PM · View previous versions

Nov 27, 2010 at 01:23 PM

sebboh
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.13 #12 · Canon to Sony?...

OwlsEyes wrote:
As you may (or may not) recall, I was looking to shake things up a bit... stimulate the creative bug/spark the flame/make it new again/... well you get the idea. Having been a long time Contax/Hasselblad shooter in the 80's and 90's ... what we all now refer to as the dark ages of film... I had been nostalgic for my long-gone Zeiss optics. I'm not one to go the alt route as most of my shooting is fast and spontaneous... so I began to look at Sony... and dare I say... Nikon. I was particularly intrigued by the 135...Show more →

sounds like a good plan, i certainly wouldn't pick sony if most of my shooting was done with a 300mm f/2.8. i have to agree about 400/4.5 being the sweet spot for wildlife too. best of luck.

Nov 27, 2010 at 01:24 PM

sebboh
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.13 #13 · Canon to Sony?...

hans98ko wrote:
For IBIS the subject a + will fall in the middle of the square matrix of pixels in the beginning but will shift to a slightly different position on the matrix as the IBIS move the sensor around.

where are you getting this point from? the whole point of IBIS is that the sensor moves to maintain a steady image on the same set of pixels just ILIS does (otherwise it wouldn't work). neither of them are completely successful since they are not continuous. both systems detect motion at a given sampling frequency, anything movements that are too quick for the sample frequency (or too big) won't be adequately corrected by IS. so to summarize, both systems attempt to stabilize the image on the pixels, neither is totally successful, but both are good enough give a 2-4 stop advantage in handholding shutter speed (at lower speeds).

Nov 27, 2010 at 01:41 PM

Utahlefty
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.13 #14 · Canon to Sony?...

schristie11 wrote:
However, I had to sell it all for a life-changing move to the other side of the country.

When I can get back into new gear, I am not sure I�ll go to Canon again, but it is likely, since many of the lens formats I love are available in the Canon brand.

I picture me going to a 1Ds III, or 5D III if it is out, with a typical combo of lenses:
24-70L and 70-200 f/2.8 MKII and 400 f/5.6 and 14L or the new 8-16 fisheye or 16-35 f/2.8 MK II.
I have thought about picking up another 28-300L too.

-Steve

Sorry to hear about losing your gear

I can also relate to the gripes about grips -- poor ergonomics is actually one of the most irritating things about Canon bodies, at least to my hands. I've basically fobbed my current 40D off onto my kids....

Who knows what the field will look like when you're ready to jump back in? The lenses Sony/Zeiss do make currently are pretty sweet, though.....

Nov 27, 2010 at 01:47 PM

RZetter
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.13 #15 · Canon to Sony?...

On the topics of grips: I use my 5D gripped quite often, and I find the implementation quite lacking. If I'm using an AF lens and want to change the focus point I have to change my grip to reach the joystick with my thumb. To reach the back dial to change the aperture or EC I have to reach with my thumb, which is very uncomfortable especially with a heavier setup.

I once did a wedding gig as a second photographer who used gripped Sony A700s. I really loved the ergonomics on them. the camera fit right in to my hand while my 5D honestly feels more like a heavy chunk. I was particularly impressed with how all necessary controls on the A700 were replicated on the grip, which made shooting much more comfortable. I also liked the unique design of the Sony grip, it felt much better holding the camera up to your eye since you're holding it like you would hold a camera horizontally.

That wedding was also my first experience with using a stabilized 70-200/2.8(it was a Sigma, btw). The IBIS was a godsend, routinely getting sharp shots at 1/50 @ 200mm really brought a smile to my face. On the other hand the "eye-start" AF of the A700 was really annoying, and I quickly turned it off.

Nov 27, 2010 at 03:07 PM

sebboh
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.13 #16 · Canon to Sony?...

definitely agree that eyestart AF sucks, that is the first thing i've had to turn off every time i've tried out sony cameras. second worst invention ever (after focus by wire manual focus).

as far as grips go i'm the opposite way. i will never buy another camera with a built in vertical grip (or buy a detachable grip for that matter), those things do nothing for me except get in the way and add weight and bulk. sadly this rules out all the 1D canon cameras for me as well as all the D* nikon cameras, some of which would otherwise be preferable cameras to the 5DmkII and D700.

Nov 27, 2010 at 03:50 PM

Utahlefty
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.13 #17 · Canon to Sony?...

I turn the eye-start off as well, but I've noticed the sensor below the viewfinder stays active and (at least on the A900) will switch off the rear LCD as your face approaches - and switch it back on when you pull away (up to the time-out you set).

This feature I really like for the (few) control settings that are not mechanically controlled !

Nov 27, 2010 at 07:59 PM

hans98ko
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.13 #18 · Canon to Sony?...

sebboh wrote:
where are you getting this point from? the whole point of IBIS is that the sensor moves to maintain a steady image on the same set of pixels just ILIS does (otherwise it wouldn't work). neither of them are completely successful since they are not continuous. both systems detect motion at a given sampling frequency, anything movements that are too quick for the sample frequency (or too big) won't be adequately corrected by IS. so to summarize, both systems attempt to stabilize the image on the pixels, neither is totally successful, but both are good enough give a 2-4 stop...Show more →

Check with those guys who have internal knowledge on how OIS and IBIS works or those who wrote the s/w for it and you will find that it is almost impossible to have the target sitting on the same pixels all the time. So long as they fall within the square matrix of pixels they will be able to do the final calculation for the final shot. I am not going into the buffer thing.
Like I said the OIS converge faster than IBIS as I had already stated and claimed by those companies who use it with statement like "the drive motors are catered for the individual lens".

Nov 27, 2010 at 11:36 PM

sebboh
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.13 #19 · Canon to Sony?...

hans98ko wrote:
Check with those guys who have internal knowledge on how OIS and IBIS works or those who wrote the s/w for it and you will find that it is almost impossible to have the target sitting on the same pixels all the time. So long as they fall within the square matrix of pixels they will be able to do the final calculation for the final shot. I am not going into the buffer thing.

yes, as i stated, both try to keep the image on the same pixel but neither succeed. i don't understand why you think focus needs to be calculated differently for OIS vs IBIS since both are doing the same thing without complete success? in both cases calculations for focus and IS should be independent (but probably phase and frequency locked).

hans98ko wrote:
Like I said the OIS converge faster than IBIS as I had already stated and claimed by those companies who use it with statement like "the drive motors are catered for the individual lens".

i don't view advertising documents from companies to carry any weight in technical matters (i've seen lots of ridiculous and obviously wrong claims made). as far as OIS converging faster that should be evident in the performance of the system at doing it's job (stabilizing the image). in my experience with both i have not seen any consistant superiority of OIS over IBIS (though it makes sense that there would be with super telephoto lenses). i have seen lots of variation within brands and generations of both types of IS though.

Nov 28, 2010 at 12:29 AM

hans98ko
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.13 #20 · Canon to Sony?...

Ha..ha..ha...
I was about to put a Disclaimer on the OIS converge faster than the IBIS since those are the view of the manufacturers and not mine. But just too lazy to get in to edit it again.
Yes, it also depend on the focal length of the lens, much less if it is shorter.

Nov 28, 2010 at 12:56 AM

1 2 3 … 12 13 14 end
FM Forums \| Leica & Alternative Gear \| Join Upload & Sell 1 2 3 … 12 13 14 end