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Archive 2010 · Why 1.4?

  
 
ixoye25
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p.1 #1 · Why 1.4?


**Warning: Photography is my hobby not my trade. I acknowledge that to some of you this may be a "your adjective here" question.**

Can someone help me understand why you would opt for a lens with a 1.4 aperture over a lens with 1.8 or smaller (smaller/larger always screw this up)? It seems to me that 1.4 DOF is too shallow for most subject matter and the price difference seems to be exponential. What type of photography benefits from this aperture? If you are using an aperture of 1.4 how do you use the shallow DOF for the 'look' you are trying to achieve?

Thanks in advance for helping me understand the applications of a lens with a 1.4 aperture.





Nov 12, 2010 at 12:05 PM
EB-1
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p.1 #2 · Why 1.4?


The f/1.8 should be fine for your needs.

EBH



Nov 12, 2010 at 12:08 PM
ixoye25
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p.1 #3 · Why 1.4?


Thanks EBH, 1.4 aperture is definately not in my budget. The intent of the question is to get some insight as to why 1.4 is worth the price tag for some photogs.



Nov 12, 2010 at 12:14 PM
GCasey
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p.1 #4 · Why 1.4?


The f/1.4 lens lets in slightly more light when it is wide open than an f/1.8 lens. This makes it slightly more usable when you shoot in dimly lit circumstances There is also slightly less depth of field when it is wide open. That is, anything not within the depth of field range will be blurry.

If you need those two features, the f/1.4 lens is worth it. If you don't need them save the significant cost and get the f/1.8 lens.

Actually, most lenses are sharpest around f/8.

Used Canon 50mm f/1.4 lenses go for about $325, and the 50 f/1.8 (depending on the specific model) are $100 or less.



Nov 12, 2010 at 12:22 PM
Genes Home
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p.1 #5 · Why 1.4?


The short answer is:

Becuase the same lens in 1.2 or 1.0 is not available or is too expensive.

The longer answer is:

1. More control over depth of field and "Bokeh" (blurring of background), assuming that is applicable to the type of shooting that you are doing. For some styles of shooting (especially in portraits) the ability to use DoF to isolate certain aspects of the image is quite valuable.

2. The ability to shoot further into low light situations than a lens with less light capturing ability. Even with the additional cost of the faster lens, it is generally less expensive than a top end professional DSLR (though that is changing pretty rapidly as the improved ISO/ASA capability moves down into prosumer level cameras).

3. Bragging Rights (I've got something you don't!).

As for a real world example:

I shoot lots of indoor dog agility competitions where flash is forbidden. My "normal" lens camera combination is a 200mm f/2.8 on a D300 Nikon at ISO 1600 and 1/250 to 1/400 shutter speed. This sometimes, but not always, stops the dog's motion and gives me a decent picture to sell. When I can rent or borrow a 200mm f/2.0 (1 stop faster), I am shooting at 1/500 - 1/800 shutter speed and ALL the dog's motion (including the flowing, flapping ears and tails) is perfectly frozen..........giving me many more good pictures to sell.

So the bottom line is to decide if you really need the extra speed for your type of photography...and (of course) if you can afford it.

Hope this helps.

Gene



Nov 12, 2010 at 12:28 PM
Northeast Bay
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p.1 #6 · Why 1.4?


Let me just throw this into the mix for thought...

It's not necessarily all that expensive to go to a wider aperture (faster) lens if you are willing to give up a few things such as, autofocus or focus confirmation.

I've really been getting into "alternative" lenses on my Canon bodies and really appreciate "the look" of some of the older lenses. You can pick up a Minolta-Rokkor 58mm f1.2 anywhere between $300-$500 and use an adapter ring to fit a Canon body. I don't have autofocus or focus conformation anymore but, I have a relatively inexpensive lens to give me very shallow DOF allowing me to isolate my subject. Just my 2 cents.....

Check out the "Alternative Gear" forum for some very interesting shots!

Robert



Nov 12, 2010 at 12:37 PM
garydavidjones
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p.1 #7 · Why 1.4?


I am also an amateur doing photography of vacations,

museums (low-light, no flash), and botanical gardens.

I recommend the Sigma 50 mm 1.4 (Canon mount).

Works in lower light and has better bokeh than 50 mm 1.8 lenses.

Also Sigma 50 mm 1.4 lens is much more solidly built

than the Canon 50 mm 1.4 lens. Have not had any

focusing problem with the Sigma 50 mm 1.4 lens.

Also excellent walk-around lenses are the Canon 24-105 mm

and Canon 100 macro IS lens (excellent also for portraits and

macrophotography).



Nov 12, 2010 at 12:41 PM
danob
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p.1 #8 · Why 1.4?


Taking a few shots in poor light and you will soon learn to appreciate the difference.. eg Church interior where often no flash allowed.


Nov 12, 2010 at 12:50 PM
wickerprints
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p.1 #9 · Why 1.4?


ixoye25 wrote:
Can someone help me understand why you would opt for a lens with a 1.4 aperture over a lens with 1.8 or smaller (smaller/larger always screw this up)?


When speaking of f-number, I say "greater" or "less than" to refer to the value of the number. So an f-number of 1.4 is less than an f-number of 2. But this can still be a bit confusing, so when comparing apertures I prefer to use the terms "fast" and "slow." A fast aperture admits more light than a "slow" aperture, so this description is unambiguous. f/1.4 is faster than f/2.

It seems to me that 1.4 DOF is too shallow for most subject matter and the price difference seems to be exponential.

Not always. Depth of field also depends on focal length and the subject distance. A 24mm lens shot at f/1.4 focused 10 meters away can have quite a lot of DOF. By contrast, a 400mm lens shot at f/2.8 focused 10 meters away can have very narrow DOF. And a 100mm macro lens shot at f/16 focused 30 cm away can have millimeters of DOF.

Regarding price, yes, the faster the lens is, the more it tends to cost. The EF 50/1.8 II is $100, the EF 50/1.4 is about $350, and the EF 50/1.2L is $1350. On the telephoto end, the EF 300/4L IS is $1250, and the EF 300/2.8L IS is $4400. You pay a lot for that extra stop of light. The reason is simple--faster lenses use more glass, and the larger diameter elements are harder to manufacture precisely. The construction of the lens tends to be more complex, and its overall build is held to a higher standard. This is true for many products--the high-end models tend to cost much more than the mid-range, even though the performance difference is not proportionally better.

What type of photography benefits from this aperture?

A fast aperture has two primary effects. First, it admits more light. So f/1.4 will admit twice as much light as f/2, meaning one can shoot in darker conditions without having to set the camera's sensitivity higher (and thus increasing noise), or using a longer exposure time (which increases the chance of blur due to camera shake or subject motion). It is also beneficial even when light is apparently plentiful, because one might wish to capture a very fast-moving event.

Concrete examples include low-light photography without flash such as wedding ceremonies and performance arts; sports photography such as indoor gymnastics, basketball, etc.

Second, a fast aperture reduces depth of field for a fixed focal length and subject distance. This is often beneficial for situations where the photographer wishes to emphasize the subject and de-emphasize the background. If all objects in the frame were rendered sharp, this could be distracting because it draws the viewer's attention to portions of the image that may not be as visually appealing.

Concrete examples include field sports such as football, baseball, and soccer; and portraiture, such as candids, street photography, and headshots.

If you are using an aperture of 1.4 how do you use the shallow DOF for the 'look' you are trying to achieve?

One can write a whole book on this subject. I think the best way to understand this is to look at the images that other photographers produce using such fast apertures, as this has more to do with understanding composition, especially as it pertains to the tonal relationship of visual elements in the scene.



Nov 12, 2010 at 01:10 PM
justruss
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p.1 #10 · Why 1.4?


The truth is that 1.4 vs 1.8 in the mid wide to mid tele range doesn't make an enormous difference.

The wider aperture (1.4) lets in a bit more light (usually, though f-stops are not the same as t-stops, so the aperture value does not tell you everything about how much light is transmitted, it only tells you about the geometry of the lens). It also, generally (the actual lens design can have a MAJOR impact here) causes a faster fall-off of focus beyond the plane of focus.

The difference in DOF is not huge either (at the same focal lengths).

What many here have forgotten to say is that generally, the wider aperture lenses in a particular focal length tends to also have other additions beyond aperture that increase the cost/value of the lens: build, control of chromatic phenomena, ultra-sonic focusing mechanisms, better materials, better focus rings, better sealing, etc

You're paying so much more for: higher costs to get the same yield/precision in the optical components, better quality components overall, more features, prestige/I-want-the-best-even-with-diminishing-returns-on-investment.

My main lens is a 35L (f/1.4) on a 5Dmk2. It's about 4 x the price of the 35mm f/2. The primary driving factor of my purchase was NOT the qualities the wider aperture bring (though it sure is a bonus to have for when I'm right up against the limits of light/shutter speed-- though that is rare); the primary driving factor for the purpose were the other qualities, both as far as IQ is concerned and build and focus speed/noise.

In fact, I'd probably prefer a 35mm f/2.0 that was sharp wide open, focused fast, and shared similar non-aperture-related qualities with the 35L... but weighed less and was smaller.

Finally, there certainly are times-- and they happen more for some photographers than others-- where either i) you REALLY want as little DOF as possible at a given focal length, or ii) you really are at the limits of light/shutter speed and that tiny difference in light transmission (which because of glass is OFTEN less than the physical aperture difference would imply) makes the difference.

In the end, I'd wager that most Pros focus more on getting ENOUGH DOF, not getting TINY DOF in the vast majority of their work. Super-thin dof is more a fascination of the advanced amateur/gear-head crowd. Survey both the weekend shooters, the here's-my-cat/kid shooters, and whoever it is that you personally think makes up the top echelon of pro shooters (photojournalism, commercial, fashion)... and I'll bet you see razor thin dof a couple order of magnitudes more often in the work of the first two groups compared to the final group.

The higher end pros are probably shooting with wide aperture lenses (in part because of the flexibility), but mostly shooting them stopped down anywhere from one or two stops to f/8-11.



Nov 12, 2010 at 01:32 PM
justruss
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p.1 #11 · Why 1.4?


Oh, and I would add that the above is in reference to roughly 24mm to 85mm, where there tend to be lenses with ultra-wide apertures @ f/1.4 as well as 1.8, 2.0, and 2.8.

When it comes to longer lenses, where f/2 is as fast as it gets (200mm), and f/2.8 is usually very fast (400mm), the value of wider apertures-- primarily with moving subjects (sports/birds)-- in order to get more light is dramatically increased, IMO.



Nov 12, 2010 at 01:36 PM
justruss
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p.1 #12 · Why 1.4?


On last addition: I'm not knocking the pure fun/play value of an ultra-fast lens. Nor the weekend warrior and cat/kid photographers. I'm only trying to counter the idea that wide-open fast aperture photography = Professional or high end photography. If you've got the money, and it makes you happy/increases your enjoyment... I don't think anyone can say that f/1.4 vs. f/1.8 is a silly idea. It all depends on the context of the purchase (fun, to achieve a goal, to succeed in business), with many differing conditions.

The question of worth is a very personal one. As it should be.



Nov 12, 2010 at 01:47 PM
pocketfulladou
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p.1 #13 · Why 1.4?


A f/1.4 lens working at f/1.8 will outperform an f/1.8 lens wide open.


Nov 12, 2010 at 02:07 PM
wickerprints
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p.1 #14 · Why 1.4?


justruss wrote:
On last addition: I'm not knocking the pure fun/play value of an ultra-fast lens. Nor the weekend warrior and cat/kid photographers. I'm only trying to counter the idea that wide-open fast aperture photography = Professional or high end photography. If you've got the money, and it makes you happy/increases your enjoyment... I don't think anyone can say that f/1.4 vs. f/1.8 is a silly idea. It all depends on the context of the purchase (fun, to achieve a goal, to succeed in business), with many differing conditions.

The question of worth is a very personal one. As it should be.


Well, your message certainly comes across as being distasteful to me. I don't like your implication that "professional = good/knowledgeable" and "amateur = bad/ignorant." It feels elitist and it also implies that you think that only amateurs shoot wide open because they think "hey, what else did I buy the lens for," not "I'm shooting wide open because I that is the best choice for what I want to do."

Professionals absolutely DO shoot wide open and they do it all the time. Weddings, sports, portraits.

I prefer to think that photographers fall into two basic groups--those who shoot what they need, and those who shoot what they want. The former shoots to get something they can use. The latter shoots to achieve some desired effect. Some photographers are both, depending on circumstances. Personally, I'm going to shoot at whatever aperture I damn well please depending on what I want to do, and that does not make me any less skilled or knowledgeable or capable for it. I certainly don't need someone to come around and make sweeping generalizations about the intent behind shooting wide open and what that might say about one's photographic experience.



Nov 12, 2010 at 02:13 PM
ixoye25
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p.1 #15 · Why 1.4?


@wickerprints

Thank you very much! You hit the nail on the head for what I was looking for. The DOF portion is what really I guess i did not think about long enough. The DOF of a 1.4 is not necessarily very shallow. That clears it up.



Nov 12, 2010 at 04:19 PM
lou f
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p.1 #16 · Why 1.4?


well a 1.4 tends to be nicer at f2-2.2 then an f1.8


Nov 12, 2010 at 04:28 PM
ixoye25
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p.1 #17 · Why 1.4?


@justruss

Thanks for the insight!



Nov 12, 2010 at 04:29 PM
ixoye25
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p.1 #18 · Why 1.4?


pocketfulladou wrote:
A f/1.4 lens working at f/1.8 will outperform an f/1.8 lens wide open.



I assume this is because of the build quility required/expected out of a 1.4 lens?



Nov 12, 2010 at 04:30 PM
wickerprints
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p.1 #19 · Why 1.4?


pocketfulladou wrote:
A f/1.4 lens working at f/1.8 will outperform an f/1.8 lens wide open.

ixoye25 wrote:
I assume this is because of the build quility required/expected out of a 1.4 lens?

Kind of. It really has more to do with the fact that when you design a lens for a faster aperture, it has to correct for aberrations to a greater degree, because certain aberrations increase dramatically as the lens opens up. Then those corrections then generally benefit the lens at all apertures.

But please note that this is not always the case. Sometimes, lenses can be made sharper if they are also made slower, because the design need not accommodate a fast aperture. A fast aperture, for example, may require the use of higher refractive index glass, which in turn introduces aberrations that otherwise might not be present if one made the lens slower.

So the truth is, it depends. It's not always one or the other. It really has more to do with how the lenses are designed.



Nov 12, 2010 at 04:43 PM
Cableaddict
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p.1 #20 · Why 1.4?


ixoye25 wrote:
It seems to me that 1.4 DOF is too shallow for most subject matter


-but not all, and that's the answer.

I use the wonderful Rokkor 58/1.2. For portraits, you must be very careful, and that super-shallow DOF will not always be desirable. However, if you are shooting a party shot with a few people 10 feet away, your usable DOF is much greater - maybe 3-4 feet deep. - and then the extra background blur becomes a gift from the aperture gods.



Nov 13, 2010 at 06:01 AM
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