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Archive 2010 · Sigma 50 mythbusters

  
 
kevin2i
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p.4 #1 · Sigma 50 mythbusters


- I think the better solution is to send defective lenses back to Sigma. This hits sigma with cost of repair, and tells them their products are substandard.

And regardless of whether buying 3 lenses is ethical the other question is how ethical is sigma's business model? They produce a fair number of poor performing lenses, and let the consumer do the quality control. And real QC could be expensive for Sigma. The cost to test every lens might be minor compared to having to fix or trash all of their failures. This is a business model I want to stay away from (although I do own 1 sigma lens - 150 macro - and it has been to Sigma for repair).

I have to applaud Zeiss - every lens is MTF tested - and all the MTF's provided are from an lens. Avoiding the 'good copy' lottery is definitely worth a premium.



Oct 10, 2010 at 10:04 PM
outlawyer
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p.4 #2 · Sigma 50 mythbusters


Wanted to love the Sig 50, it's probably my favorite focal length; when it was on it was a fantastic lens, better than either of the 50L's I've been through in sharpness and its equal in other IQ factors. But with my poor eyesight (and no body with LV) good AF is important, and for all the complaints about the EF 50, all my copies have been close to perfect as far as pinpoint AF.
So if Sigma makes a MF 50 for, say, $285, I'd be all over it- after I get my 5DII.



Oct 10, 2010 at 10:11 PM
WilliamFinley
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p.4 #3 · Sigma 50 mythbusters


kevin2i wrote:
"the other question is how ethical is sigma's business model? They produce a fair number of poor performing lenses, and let the consumer do the quality control".


This is why I won't participate in the "Sigma Lottery". It's not cheap to play either.



Oct 10, 2010 at 10:14 PM
chez
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p.4 #4 · Sigma 50 mythbusters


kevin2i wrote:
- I think the better solution is to send defective lenses back to Sigma. This hits sigma with cost of repair, and tells them their products are substandard.

And regardless of whether buying 3 lenses is ethical the other question is how ethical is sigma's business model? They produce a fair number of poor performing lenses, and let the consumer do the quality control. And real QC could be expensive for Sigma. The cost to test every lens might be minor compared to having to fix or trash all of their failures. This is a business model I want to stay
...Show more

What are you talking about? Sigma's business model not being ethical? Come on.

If you don't like Sigma's business...then just don't buy Sigma equipment. Who has a gun to your head forcing you to buy a Sigma lens.

This is getting more comical with every post. Good reading for a slow Sunday night.



Oct 10, 2010 at 10:29 PM
Richard Nye
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p.4 #5 · Sigma 50 mythbusters


I've updated my original post with some new information. I'll be keeping one of the Sigmas and selling my Canon.


Oct 10, 2010 at 10:31 PM
wickerprints
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p.4 #6 · Sigma 50 mythbusters


supra28 wrote:
Eyebrock: obviously you don't have an opinion of your own so why even bother?
Yes, it's a free market, but it doesn't mean you should have to uncessarily abuse it. It just takes common sense to realize what OP did was wrong, selfish, and inconsiderate. If everyone does what Richard did, there wouldn't be a free market left.


Several of the responses after my previous post in this thread have shown that some of you aren't quite grasping what is happening here.

The manufacturers, and the retailers who sell their products, expect a certain level of return rate and each factors that into their operating costs. Let me be unequivocally clear about this: it is part of the cost of doing business.

Do you think that it is unfair that brick-and-mortar shops have to vacuum their floors more frequently than an online retailer because walk-in customers track in more dirt? Are you going to blame the customer for being unethical for not making sure their shoes are clean? It's part of the cost of doing business.

It is the retailer's choice whether or not to institute a restocking fee. It is the manufacturer's choice to set their QC levels at a certain point. In a free market, these choices are determined as a rational response to aggregate consumer behaviors. If enough consumers started buying multiple copies with the intent to return all but the best one, as the OP did, then you would see retailers respond by instituting a restocking fee because at some point the restocking costs would outweigh the benefits of customer satisfaction. If consumers did this for some brands but not others (e.g., high return rates on Sigma lenses but low on Canon), then the retailer can institute a restocking fee on that brand only, and then b*tch to Sigma to say "hey, we don't like selling your crap."

Similarly, if Sigma started seeing enough of an increase in returns, and handling all those customer requests to adjust or fix their sub-par lenses becomes more costly than the effort to improve their production standards, then what do you think is going to happen? They're going to make those improvements. They might also increase their prices to maintain profitability, but then the consumer has higher expectations. All of these factors are weighed against each other--that is how free enterprise works.

So, to suggest that if all consumers started taking maximum advantage of their situation, that the free market would collapse, reflects a very deeply flawed understanding of what "free market" means, as well as a complete failure to recognize basic economic principles. The loss of a free market would require something like over-regulation, and restricting what consumers, manufacturers, and retailers can or cannot do in such a way that one or more parties cannot operate as a rational decision maker.

I should hope by now that we can agree that such an act by the OP is (1) economically rational, and (2) legal. What I have not addressed until now is the question of whether it is "moral" or "ethical." This is not a coincidence. The reason why I have avoided framing the discussion in this context is because in my view, it is not the best context in which to view such actions. But since so many of you are hell-bent on passing judgment, then let me be equally clear on this matter as well: I personally would not engage in such an act, unless I had very good reason to believe it is necessary in order for me to be a satisfied customer.

Let me elaborate. If I needed a particular product on short notice, and this product is known to have a high defect rate, say 50% are not up to the standard I require for my purposes, then I would find it entirely ethical to do what the OP did, because I need something I know to be unreliable. But I wouldn't do it capriciously because it has its own problems, such as dealing with the whole return process, having the funds or credit to make such a purchase, and the inherent risk of something happening in the brief period of time I am in possession of multiple copies.

In other words, although rational, it may be somewhat unethical as a business practice if the goal is to have a society wherein every consumer behaves in such a way as to equalize all consumers' advantage. And it is probably unethical if the goal is to have consumers behave in a way that minimizes costs for the retailer or manufacturer. But if the goal is to maximize one's own chances of receiving a satisfactory result, then it is absolutely ethical--indeed, it would be unethical to do otherwise.

As to morality, that is far too subjective to have any valid meaning. Everyone's needs and circumstances are different, and it is not a black-and-white situation.



Oct 10, 2010 at 10:33 PM
Mike V
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p.4 #7 · Sigma 50 mythbusters


But they weren't perfectly good lenses.
+3, -3 & -13 Microadjust.

They were all dogs.







Oct 10, 2010 at 10:39 PM
wickerprints
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p.4 #8 · Sigma 50 mythbusters


kevin2i wrote:
I have to applaud Zeiss - every lens is MTF tested - and all the MTF's provided are from an lens. Avoiding the 'good copy' lottery is definitely worth a premium.


Is it?

That's all well and good if you think so. But not everyone else does, because other people have different needs and constraints. It's presumptuous to think that what works for you (paying a premium for that assurance of quality) is also going to work for everyone else.

Some people buy a lens, test it like crazy, and if there's even the slightest defect they return it. They demand absolute perfection. Others would buy that same lens, accept it gladly, and might never even notice the defect, using it for many years with extreme satisfaction. So who is the sucker? The guy who goes through headache after headache because they can't stand even a sub-micron amount of decentration, or the guy who buys "defective" glass and happily shoots away?

I don't buy Sigma because they really aren't that much cheaper, and I like my Canon lenses. They also don't offer any designs I'm interested in at this time. I don't buy Zeiss because they are blatantly overpriced for my needs, lack AF, and I don't want to be perceived as a lens snob. The tiny differences in image quality, and the build quality issues are secondary to me because I just need something that works to my personal satisfaction. If I'm going to buy manual focus glass, I'd probably turn to Samyang first, and maybe try to find a Rokkor 58/1.2. But that's my choice and if other people choose differently, then that's great for them.



Oct 10, 2010 at 10:46 PM
WilliamFinley
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p.4 #9 · Sigma 50 mythbusters


wickerprints wrote:
So who is the sucker? The guy who goes through headache after headache because they can't stand even a sub-micron amount of decentration, or the guy who buys "defective" glass and happily shoots away?


Ignorance is bliss



Oct 10, 2010 at 10:56 PM
abam
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p.4 #10 · Sigma 50 mythbusters


"It is incredibly arrogant to attempt to guilt people into doing things according to some personally held, unwritten moral economic code. Companies have absolutely NO problem shafting YOU and they do it every single day. They serve their best interests and that is exactly how the game works. They know some of you are clever enough to exploit loopholes in the system to maximize their leverage. That behavior is already factored into their bottom line. If they really cared about closing those loopholes, then they could do so quite trivially..."

again, good points.



Oct 11, 2010 at 12:31 AM
jvarszegi
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p.4 #11 · Sigma 50 mythbusters


To sum up, return abuse is unethical. No amount of blather about whether it is "economically rational" to exploit others means that unethical behavior should be allowed to pass without question. Of course it is "economically rational" to take without compunction, if one thinks one can get away with it.

EDIT: It seems I have been using the word "return fraud" when really what we seem to be discussing is termed "return abuse":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_fraud



Oct 11, 2010 at 12:38 AM
ViscaB
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p.4 #12 · Sigma 50 mythbusters


If you want more control over quality buy it from a store where you can test it in the store and have direct support in case there are any issues.

The issue with buying online is that if a lot of people cherrypick lenses is if you are the one not doing it you'll end up with a lemon.

On the Zeiss QC remark that somebody made. I just had to return a 35 ZE since it was de-centered. The good thing about Zeiss is that they give you a new one right away.



Oct 11, 2010 at 12:56 AM
wickerprints
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p.4 #13 · Sigma 50 mythbusters


jvarszegi wrote:
To sum up, return abuse is unethical. No amount of blather about whether it is "economically rational" to exploit others means that unethical behavior should be allowed to pass without question. Of course it is "economically rational" to take without compunction, if one thinks one can get away with it.


You know what's unethical? Imposing your own misguided sense of morality upon others when it is not based in fact. If you find the practice repugnant, then don't do it. You don't have the right to tell others they have to abide by your rules when what they are doing isn't even remotely illegal.

EDIT: It seems I have been using the word "return fraud" when really what we seem to be discussing is termed "return abuse":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_fraud


Get your facts straight, and stop being so blindly judgmental, and perhaps you can begin to engage in a civilized discussion.



Oct 11, 2010 at 01:41 AM
jvarszegi
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p.4 #14 · Sigma 50 mythbusters


It's not misguided because you've decided you disagree with it! Return fraud and abuse apparently cost retailers billions of dollars a year. You can't win an argument simply by slinging insults. I can write about all sorts of things I find repugnant. I have the right to voice my opinion, same as you do yours.

We simply have a different approach, wickerprints; you try to control the discussion by asserting everyone here is agreeing on things on which there is no agreement, etc., which I simply see as a slick argumentation tactic. When people dare to continue to disagree with you, they have a "misguided sense of morality". I think you have a lack of a moral compass, since you think that taking advantage of others is not a breach of basic fairness, all issues of legality aside.

Also, I haven't seen you post any sources for your assertion that return abuse is completely legal, just more bare assertions by you. Just because something is rarely or never prosecuted, or hard to combat, doesn't mean it's legal or valid. Return abuse basically works like this: the "buyer" engages in a contract with the vendor, and pays the vendor; the "buyer's" end of the bargain is to pay and to deal in good faith, which involves keeping the item he bought unless there is a problem or it's unsuitable; but completely at odds with those ideas, the "buyer" buys with the idea of returning the item, essentially renting it at the vendor's expense. Implicit in the "buyer"/renter's dealings with the vendor is the assertion by the buyer that they will honor the contract, which the "buyer"/renter then fails to do, all according to the initial plan. I'm astounded that that sounds perfectly fine and above-board to you.

I imagine that what's underlying your posts here is that you've actually engaged in this practice before. I am sorry you are so upset, but you can't shut people up by the sheer number of your words.

EDIT: Interestingly, it looks like those with a "misguided sense of morality", whereby they think that buyers shouldn't engage in return abuse, are in the majority here in this discussion. One wonders at the prevalence of those engaging in return abuse within the buying public, but with camera lenses I would certainly hope it is far, far less than 50%. I suspect that it is, for a combination of reasons including that most buyers would tend to honor a contract, and that most don't have the money to buy three fairly high-dollar-value items at once, and/or the realization that there is likely no need for such a practice if one's aim is to get a product that works.

Edited on Oct 11, 2010 at 06:00 PM · View previous versions



Oct 11, 2010 at 09:08 AM
Yakim Peled
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p.4 #15 · Sigma 50 mythbusters


I wish Canon would make a 50/1.4 Mk II with improved optics, ring USM and BQ similar to the 85/1.8. That way we could have at least one 50mm lens that we could recommend without reservations.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Oct 11, 2010 at 09:24 AM
BenV
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p.4 #16 · Sigma 50 mythbusters


So what if he bought one, saw it misfocused, exchanged it, another misfocus, exchnaged it, and kept the third one?


Oct 11, 2010 at 09:25 AM
jvarszegi
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p.4 #17 · Sigma 50 mythbusters


Yakim, I'd be on it like stink on a monkey. As it is I like my 50mm f/1.4, but mostly use it as an f/2 lens, only rarely going wider than that. I also shudder every time something touches the front element.

While they're at it, they could update the 35mm f/2 also. I would gladly pay 85mm f/1.8 prices for an f/1.8 or f/2 35mm with those attributes. Ditto for the 28mm f/1.8 (I actually like mine quite a bit but the optics could stand an update).



Oct 11, 2010 at 09:31 AM
jvarszegi
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p.4 #18 · Sigma 50 mythbusters


BenV wrote:
So what if he bought one, saw it misfocused, exchanged it, another misfocus, exchnaged it, and kept the third one?


I don't think anyone would be arguing that that is wrong in any way, of course. Differences include the lack of buying with the intent to return, and the lack of intentionally causing the retailer inconvenience and extra expense, which may be passed on to others.



Oct 11, 2010 at 09:41 AM
Yakim Peled
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p.4 #19 · Sigma 50 mythbusters


jvarszegi wrote:
Yakim, I'd be on it like stink on a monkey. As it is I like my 50mm f/1.4, but mostly use it as an f/2 lens, only rarely going wider than that. I also shudder every time something touches the front element.

While they're at it, they could update the 35mm f/2 also. I would gladly pay 85mm f/1.8 prices for an f/1.8 or f/2 35mm with those attributes. Ditto for the 28mm f/1.8 (I actually like mine quite a bit but the optics could stand an update).


My last Sigmalux ordeal really put me off these 50/1.4 primes and I make to with f/2.8 lenses for now (17-55/2.8 IS and 60/2.8). However, I recently got a Tamron 60/2 (should arrive tomorrow) and I wonder if it might top the Canon.

I had the 28/1.8 USM but bad corner sharpness and awful flare problems caused me to sell it rather quickly. If one with improved optics will emerge I'd be extremely interested.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Oct 11, 2010 at 09:50 AM
chez
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p.4 #20 · Sigma 50 mythbusters


BenV wrote:
So what if he bought one, saw it misfocused, exchanged it, another misfocus, exchnaged it, and kept the third one?


Ben, nothing is wrong with that scenario. The scenario I don't support is buying three with the intent of possibly not even wanting the lens. What if all 3 of the purchased lenses were super sharp and were all sent back because the purchaser decided they really did not want the lens. This scenario is just abuse of the return policy and in my opinion, yes a moral issue.



Oct 11, 2010 at 10:07 AM
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