Seanzky wrote:
When Paul put up two polls if his presence is wanted here, I voted "yes". That was before I knew how Paul carried himself on the forums. Everyone here seems to think that Jerry Kacey attacks Paul for no good reason. I've read and participated in all those threads where both parties traded jabs and I just don't see how Jerry attacked Paul.
Every time someone says something about Paul's products, which are not necessarily negative, Paul gets very defensive and is the one who goes on offensive mode. I really can't believe how many here fail to see that and come to Paul's rescue.
This is how I see it: Paul begged his loyal customers on his "tech" forum (Yes, I read it the minute he posted) to stand up for him here on FM and you (hobbit) just took his word for it that he was attacked and came here to do exactly what he asked.
Paul is rude, short-tempered, egotistic, and behaved like no one else on this forum. I'm glad he was finally banned....Show more →
jeremy_clay wrote:
...you posted TWENTY TIMES in the PLM V2 thread - yeah, you *hate* banter.
You make it sound like I carried myself the same way Paul did. I also didn't know the number of posts in any thread separates a banter from a discussion.
I've seen a couple of FM members that have been consistently more abrasive and/or rude than PCB, and they haven't been banned (at least not yet). I think there's more to the story than just what was in his recent posts...possibly some PMs or emails, etc. I doubt we'll find out the real cause. Who knows? It may have been deserved.
While I'm not sure how a photographer-centric site should view allowing posts by folks with commercial interests, it does have the value of presenting an opportunity to dispel misinformation early in the online rumor cycle. If nothing else, PCB was very direct about doing that.
There were a few folks who seemed to enjoy winding PCB up with 'friend-of-a-friend' or other bits of 'expertise', but none that I'm aware of had put the sum of that expertise to use in a practical application to bring real products to as wide a commercial market as successfully. He evidently does know something they don't. It's pretty easy to 'armchair quarterback' a week after the game, and if he committed any sin, to me, it was seeing through that and saying so very directly, as well as allowing himself to get wound up. In fairness, if some of those folks really wanted to get information about his products or debate PCB, they could have just gone to his website/forum or corresponded with him. IMHO there was no real value added in doing it here.
IMHO, if a company's products and/or service are good and meet the need, not buying them because an owner or manager or employee is abrasive is cutting off your nose to spite your face. There are a lot worse things a person could be. I'm pretty sure if we vetted all the owners or management at other companies, we could find reasons not to buy a lot of things.
BRYAN BEASLEIG wrote:
And almost half of Jerry Kacey's are baiting Paul. This can be a useful forum but there is considerable abuse by people with an agenda.
Rules should be applied equally and with no exception but this is a private forum so FM can do anything he wants. I just don't like bullies.
If you guys feel Jerry Kacey should be banned from FM, then you should petition for it. It doesn't really matter to guys like me. I'll still visit this site and hold no ill will against any of you. But as I've said before, I just don't see how Jerry attacked Paul in any of those threads. Can you guys post a direct quote?
Still Bill wrote:
In fairness, if some of those folks really wanted to get information about his products or debate PCB, they could have just gone to his website/forum or corresponded with him. IMHO there was no real value added in doing it here.
IMHO, if a company's products and/or service are good and meet the need, not buying them because an owner or manager or employee is abrasive is cutting off your nose to spite your face. There are a lot worse things a person could be. I'm pretty sure if we vetted all the owners or management at other companies, we could find reasons not to buy a lot of things....Show more →
I'm not sure if you knew this, but if you go to his "tech" forum to ask, dispute, question his claims regardless how nicely you put it, you get banned.
For him to post on his own forum asking his customers to take it up here on FM is very childish. He has to take it like how he gives it. I know people who were banned for asking what's taking the Einsteins so long or why the PLM2 is taking forever. Their post were a whole lot more polite than PCB's posts here or anywhere, believe it or not.
"Maybe servicing broken units is not high on their list of objectives. Since they have pictures of the actual product the specs are likely coming soon. I'm sure they resisted the urge to make claims before everything was packaged and tested with all the components in place. "
Yet anybody with any Photoshop knowledge knows that the Tronix photos were poor comps but yet he still took a dig at Buff since they have been going back and forth.
Paul's technical knowledge was valuable, but his rude and offensive as of late was a bit too much. He needs to learn to walk away from a conversation rather than dragging the conversation first to a tangent, then into a boxing match.
"Maybe servicing broken units is not high on their list of objectives. Since they have pictures of the actual product the specs are likely coming soon. I'm sure they resisted the urge to make claims before everything was packaged and tested with all the components in place. "
Yet anybody with any Photoshop knowledge knows that the Tronix photos were poor comps but yet he still took a dig at Buff since they have been going back and forth.
I remember Jerry saying that but that's already waaay after the PCB vs. Kacey battle began. Mind you, I thought it was wrong of Jerry to provoke Paul like that. I think he should have taken the higher ground right from the beginning.
If everyone reads that carefully, you'll see that Dave asked something, Paul addressed it without knowing that the adapter Dave uses is by someone named Kacey who happens to be reading, and then Jerry comes in to defend his product by showing that Paul's speedring does exactly what Paul criticized Jerry's product of doing.
Now tell me where Jerry "attacked" Paul or show me where Paul is innocent. Once again, I'm not Jerry's defender and I have nothing against any of you guys, but I am really amazed at how much you guys defend Paul right or wrong, even when evidence clearly points that PCB acted very childishly.
Paul's presence was about 20% helpful and 80% a waste of time.
He was in a great position to offer a ton of useful information to his customers (and potential ones)...yet, he time and time again let his ego get in the way. I for one am glad is finally gone. I use some of his products and if I need to get in touch with him he has his own forum. That is simple enough. How difficult is it to go to his website??
I visit FM and specifically the Lighting forum to see what other pros are doing and using and why. I don't want a manufacturer bickering every time someone discusses his products or a similar product from an competitor. It adds absolutely nothing.
Was it cool that a CEO was so transparent and forthcoming to his customers? Yeah it was. But he still can be on his own site, which is where he should have been anyway. After everything that has transpired I'm very happy with the decision.
I use PCB products and I love them to death. Such a great value for the performance they give me. I also use Kacey's beauty dish and it's an awesome product as well. I'll continue to use products from both these guys as long as they give me what I need.
With that said, I've followed the PCB vs Kacey debate from the start, and I've also seen countless threads from both sides before the brawl. In my opinion, PCB comes out as the biggest loser here and well deserving of it. Every post I see from PCB is a childish display of him proving how knowledgeable he is or why his products are better than others. Sure he's baited by a few people here and there, but is it really that hard to walk away or defend yourself without adding some sort of rude remark? So what if people were rude to him at first, people talk crap about the President every minute of the day on larger forums like television, you don't see him defending himself with breaking news reports every second of the day. As a CEO, he should know to control himself and handle himself professionally.
I recall in a recent thread, PCB publicly told Kacey to stop trying to be buddy buddy with him. Who does that?! Such remarks could have been handled through a PM, but instead he chose to make it public. PCB is very knowledgeable and can be a great asset on these boards, but the negatives far outweigh the positives at this point. Love the products, but can't find it in me to respect the man.
I learned more about how lights and triggers work from Buff than all the other sources put together. The guy really seemed to know what he was talking about, something that's all too rare on internet forums. I found Kacey and Seanzky FAR more abrasive than Buff, and yet they are still around. Seanzky has been particularly belligerent in this particular thread, but I'm certainly not requesting he be banned. Everyone knows that Paul can sometimes have a short fuse, just as they know there are a few that enjoy provoking him. I think this forum has just lost about 60% of it's knowledge base.
Now for a message to the unknown moderator. I personally think it is cowardly to not at least post a message saying, "I banned Buff because I live in Europe and like European lights better." Or whatever. One of the few things that really annoys me from time to time about FM Forums is they will delete a photo or ban someone without any explanation. Again, I think that is cowardly. The moderators on other forums, such as what's once again the most useful lighting forum, Strobist, do exactly that. I don't always agree with them, but I do respect them for at least giving a reason and signing their name to it. Is this too much to ask? I say this as a PAYING member here.
Still Bill wrote:
I've seen a couple of FM members that have been consistently more abrasive and/or rude than PCB, and they haven't been banned (at least not yet). I think there's more to the story than just what was in his recent posts...possibly some PMs or emails, etc. I doubt we'll find out the real cause. Who knows? It may have been deserved.
I presume (perhaps incorrectly) that it is not merely abrasiveness that is the issue--it is that PCB was behaving belligerently in the context of advertising his products through forum posts. Hostility is one thing, but to actively engage in personal attacks against those who criticize your product because you wish to suppress negative press is another matter entirely.
While I'm not sure how a photographer-centric site should view allowing posts by folks with commercial interests, it does have the value of presenting an opportunity to dispel misinformation early in the online rumor cycle. If nothing else, PCB was very direct about doing that.
I don't dispute that PCB is relatively open about his products and their development. But certainly one should wonder whether a confrontational and adversarial attitude is an effective vehicle for sharing such information. If his intent to spread knowledge is sincere, then why would he do it in such an unprofessional way?
There were a few folks who seemed to enjoy winding PCB up with 'friend-of-a-friend' or other bits of 'expertise', but none that I'm aware of had put the sum of that expertise to use in a practical application to bring real products to as wide a commercial market as successfully. He evidently does know something they don't. It's pretty easy to 'armchair quarterback' a week after the game, and if he committed any sin, to me, it was seeing through that and saying so very directly, as well as allowing himself to get wound up. In fairness, if some of those folks really wanted to get information about his products or debate PCB, they could have just gone to his website/forum or corresponded with him. IMHO there was no real value added in doing it here....Show more →
You can't control how other people behave. You can only control your own behavior. If others are "armchair quarterbacking," that's their deal. It doesn't justify being an ass yourself, thus my claim that PCB inflicted more harm to his image than any of his critics ever did by complaining about his stuff.
IMHO, if a company's products and/or service are good and meet the need, not buying them because an owner or manager or employee is abrasive is cutting off your nose to spite your face. There are a lot worse things a person could be. I'm pretty sure if we vetted all the owners or management at other companies, we could find reasons not to buy a lot of things.
I care about the level of customer service and professionalism that a product manufacturer has. Such things matter to a lot of people. On a more personal level, I don't cope well with proprietors who talk down to me if I am their customer. I would not buy PCB products on that basis alone--if I have a question or something goes wrong, I think I'd be rightfully concerned about the possibility I'd be shouted at, called stupid, or something equally unpleasant and frustrating. I won't pay someone to do that to me--I already have that done to me for free.
You know, this is why companies like Canon and Nikon have customer service departments to handle all the crap that their customers give them. They shield the execs and engineers from going insane and opening up a can of whoop-ass on some clueless customer. If you are exposed to that stuff for too long, it poisons you to the point you can't tell the difference between someone who has a legitimate issue and someone who just wants to make you miserable. PCB's fatal flaw, as I pointed out before, is that he can't separate the personal from the professional.
If you are going to step out onto the front line, don't be surprised if you get shot at.
Yeah I followed that. You'll see from my comments though Sean that I really don't think either one should be banned but if Buff gets banned so should Casey. Neither one knows when enough is enough.
Two23 wrote:
I found Kacey and Seanzky FAR more abrasive than Buff, and yet they are still around. Seanzky has been particularly belligerent in this particular thread, but I'm certainly not requesting he be banned.
You are entitled to you own opinion and if that's how you think of me, that's totally fine.
Everyone knows that Paul can sometimes have a short fuse, just as they know there are a few that enjoy provoking him.
Paul "sometimes" has a short fuse? Try every time. You say it like we are here to provoke him and get him to slip or say something stupid that lead to him getting banned. If all it takes to provoke Paul was to say something about his product that isn't in the form of a praise, then yes many here "provoked" him by your definition.
Don't you find it funny that Paul is here to discuss his products, not to promote them according to him, yet when people discuss his products he jumps in and slams whoever wasn't singing the tune he wanted to hear?
A good example is when people ask something like, "When can we see shipments of the PLM v2?" Seems like an innocent question, right? Paul will come in and tell people to wait and that he spent a ton or lost a ton of money getting it to people. Then he goes on about the economy and that he isn't like some knock off artist or an eBay seller. What's that about? Is that what you call "provoking"? Was he "provoked"?
BTW, feel free to look up any of those threads where Paul posted and see if I'm the least bit exaggerating. If I am, I beg Fred Miranda himself to ban me from FM permanently. If for any reason, he can call me "belligerent".
I think this forum has just lost about 60% of it's knowledge base.
Now that's just outlandish. Upon Paul's exile, FM just lost 60% of its knowledge base? I don't even know where to begin with that one.
Diavolo wrote:
Yeah I followed that. You'll see from my comments though Sean that I really don't think either one should be banned but if Buff gets banned so should Casey. Neither one knows when enough is enough.
Okay. Fair point. I guess because both got into it and didn't stop when other members got fed up, maybe it would be fair that he were banned, too. I'll leave that up for the moderators to decide. But I certainly won't come here and start a riot on behalf of Jerry even if he asked me to in a private forum of his or via PM/e-mail.
Two23 wrote:
I learned more about how lights and triggers work from Buff than all the other sources put together. The guy really seemed to know what he was talking about, something that's all too rare on internet forums. I found Kacey and Seanzky FAR more abrasive than Buff, and yet they are still around. Seanzky has been particularly belligerent in this particular thread, but I'm certainly not requesting he be banned. Everyone knows that Paul can sometimes have a short fuse, just as they know there are a few that enjoy provoking him. I think this forum has just lost about 60% of it's knowledge base.
Now for a message to the unknown moderator. I personally think it is cowardly to not at least post a message saying, "I banned Buff because I live in Europe and like European lights better." Or whatever. One of the few things that really annoys me from time to time about FM Forums is they will delete a photo or ban someone without any explanation. Again, I think that is cowardly. The moderators on other forums, such as what's once again the most useful lighting forum, Strobist, do exactly that. I don't always agree with them, but I do respect them for at least giving a reason and signing their name to it. Is this too much to ask? I say this as a PAYING member here.
Really? 60% of its knowledge base? I'm pretty sure there are other very knowledgable people here who know a thing or two about flashes and triggers. I'm surprised you defend PCB as if none of it is his fault. Every time I see PCB post, I can rest assure that 2-3 hours later I'll see follow up posts of his ranting, bantering, and sometimes unnecessary overload of information to feed his own ego.
I suppose if PCB stopped using the internet all together, the world would then lose 60% of it's flash/trigger knowledge base.
If he had restricted himself to discussions of his own products he would have been OK. He's often taken shots at "Makers of European" products, and critiquing other vendors products was his downfall. According to his own blog:
Some people just need to fall on their own sword right about now. We should be able to talk "tech" about anybody's product and their "marketing" claims. Was his and the other users claim technically wrong? Or does this upset the "Profoto" or any mega buck European gear mystique? Do European brands make you a sexual tyrannosaurus rex? Baiters, whiners, gear snobs, arm chair directors, etc. Alot of you guys are just lame. Lets get back to the lighting and studio tech talk.
Baiters, whiners, gear snobs, arm chair directors, etc. Alot of you guys are just lame. Lets get back to the lighting and studio tech talk.