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Archive 2010 · Climate change Sceptics

  
 
Tim Ashton
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p.1 #1 · Climate change Sceptics


There are many here on FM who take every opportunity to make misinformed attacks on members, if they should mention climate change.
All, without fail, mention the U of east Anglia emails.
There have been THREE major inquiries into the veracity of the U of East Anglia since the so called "email scandal".

for those of you who might be interested in fact rather than opinion I post the following comment which clearly and only states fact.
Tim

You wouldn't read about it: climate scientists right
RODNEY TIFFEN
July 26, 2010

Chances are, you have not heard much about Climategate lately, but last November it dominated the media. Three weeks before the Copenhagen summit, thousands of emails from the Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia were published on a Russian website.

The research institute was a leading contributor to the fourth Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report, and some of the leaked emails showed the scientists in a poor light.

The scandal was one of the pivotal moments in changing the politics of climate change. What seemed close to a bipartisan agreement on an environmental trading scheme collapsed with Tony Abbott's defeat of Malcolm Turnbull. Within months the Rudd government lost its nerve on what the former prime minister called ''the greatest moral and economic challenge of our time''.

By casting doubt on the integrity of the scientists, Climategate helped puncture public faith in the science, and probably contributed to Labor's political panic. The echo chamber of columnists reverberated with angry and accusatory claims. In Australia, Piers Akerman said: ''The tsunami of leaked emails . . . reveal a culture of fraud, manipulation, deceit and personal vindictiveness to rival anything in a John le Carre or John Grisham thriller.'' Later he wrote: ''The crowd that gathered in Copenhagen were there pushing a fraud.''

Andrew Bolt thought that ''what they reveal is perhaps the greatest scientific scandal'' of our time. ''Emails leaked on the weekend show there is indeed a conspiracy to deceive the world - and Mr Rudd has fallen for it.''

Miranda Devine wrote: ''We see clearly the rotten heart of the propaganda machine that has driven the world to the brink of insanity.''

The ramifications of Climategate were immediate. The climate unit's head, Professor Phil Jones, was forced to stand down. Three inquiries were set up to examine the scientists' conduct.

The first, a British House of Commons select committee, reported in March that the scientific reputation of Professor Jones and the CRU remained intact. The second, a science assessment panel, set up with the Royal Society and consisting of eminent British researchers, reported in April.

Its chairman, Lord Oxburgh, said his team found ''absolutely no evidence of any impropriety whatsoever'' and that ''whatever was said in the emails, the basic science seems to have been done fairly and properly''.

The third, set up by the university itself, published its 160-page report two weeks ago. On the specific allegations made against the behaviour of the CRU scientists, ''we find that the rigour and honesty [of the scientists] as scientists are not in doubt''. Importantly, it concluded: ''We did not find any evidence of behaviour that might undermine the conclusions of the IPCC assessments.''

In other words, nothing in the emails undermined the research of the climate scientists. Like the other two, the inquiry found aspects of the scientists' behaviour that fell short of professional standards - ''failing to display the proper degree of openness''.

What might seem the most damning was the way Jones dealt with freedom of information requests, but context makes his behaviour more understandable. In July last year alone, the CRU received 60 FoI requests. Answering them would have been too much for even all the unit's staff time. In a matter of days, it received 40 similar FoI requests, each wanting data from five different countries - 200 requests in all. Jones concluded the unit was subject to a vexatious campaign.

While not fully excusing their behaviour, one has to appreciate the embattled position of scientists who received a steady stream of obscene and abusive emails and constant public attacks on their integrity.

After the leaks, Jones, now reinstated, received death threats and said he had contemplated suicide.

You might imagine the media would be keen to report on authoritative conclusions about allegations it had found so newsworthy in December. But coverage of each of the reports has been non-existent in many news organisations and in others brief or without prominence.

At best, the coverage of the inquiries' conclusions added up to a 20th of the coverage the original allegations received, which leaves us to ponder the curiosities of a news media that gets so over-excited by dramatic allegations and then remains so incurably uninterested in their resolution.

The newspapers that gave greatest play to the allegations tended to give less attention to the findings. The columnists who gave greatest vent to their indignation have not made any revisions or corrections, let alone apologised to the scientists whose integrity they so sweepingly impugned.

Even at the time, it was clear much of the coverage was more attuned to maximising sensation rather than to reporting with precision. The sheer number of leaked emails, for instance, was sometimes taken as proof of the scale of the scandal, as if they were all disreputable.

In fact, only from a handful could anything sinister be conjured.

It is a common criticism of the media that it prominently publishes allegations, but gives less coverage to the prosaic facts that later refute them. But rarely is the disproportion so stark. Rarely has such an edifice of sweeping accusation and extravagant invective been constructed on such a slender factual basis.

Rarely does it do such damage.

Rodney Tiffen is emeritus professor of government and international relations at the University of Sydney.



Jul 26, 2010 at 04:25 AM
borderlight
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p.1 #2 · Climate change Sceptics


There are only a few things you need to know about Global Warming, now revised to be the politically correct, and less intimidating "Climate Change". The following facts have been available before the evil e-mails were released:

1) IPCC is run by the United Nations, a political organization

2) IPCC scientists are heavily funded; it's their livelihood.

3) IPCC scientists findings must conform to the bottom line - global warming theory. That way they keep their funding and their jobs. The IPCC works like the Republican Party; you either agree 100% with the group, or you are out.

4) Scientists en masse rarely agree on anything, except, of course, Global Warming.

5) A third of the TV meteorologists who are paid a salary think the conclusions reached by the IPCC are BS.

http://news.discovery.com/earth/meteorologists-as-climate-change-deniers.html

6) The Mann hockey stick chart Gore used in his ladder lecture "An Inconvenient Truth" was disproved years ago by two Canadian scientists. As it turns out the leader of GW, M. Mann, is one of the manipulators of facts to illustrate his point.

7) Follow the money: The Cap & Trade bonanza. This is how Al Gore went from two million in the bank to $100 million.

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=475461

8) Nobody has formally debated this topic. It's all IPCC speak, or nothing. It is a media driven topic fueled periodically by the same people who need a justification to continue their funding so they can make a nice living. GW tipifies the inane Bill Mahr comeback that "all the scientists can't be wrong" so everyone has to agree.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question473.htm

9) Climatologists and meteorologists go to the same universities to learn their craft. Meteorologists can predict things happening 10 days into the future. Climatologists want you to believe that their training can predict the future of the planet for the next 100 years!

There are BIG profits to be made in the GW theory. Anyone remember when scientists agreed in the 1970s that the earth was on track for Global Cooling? Unfortunately there was no organization with clout and the media didn't bash our brains in like they do today.

So why shouldn't those on FM agree to disagree? You are not the only voice in the room.




Jul 26, 2010 at 11:13 AM
E-Vener
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p.1 #3 · Climate change Sceptics


While you are fact checking you might want to "follow the money" for your self and see who is funding the climate change skeptics. I know you like to think for yourself so you'll need to do the research for that one for yourself.


Jul 26, 2010 at 03:36 PM
G. Thomas
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p.1 #4 · Climate change Sceptics


From one of Barry's links:

"This distrust of scientists is all the more evident when you realize that most TV meteorologists are not scientists -- and certainly not climate scientists. Few of them have graduate degrees, and only half have college degrees in atmospheric science.

There's nothing necessarily wrong with this; you don't need a PhD to accurately forecast the weather. But climate change is an extremely complex issue, and (with all due respect to TV meteorologists) their specialty is short-term, local weather, not the science of long-term global climate patterns. "

There seems to be A LOT of data out there stretching for long periods of time that a lot of scientists interpret to mean the earth is warming up. If you actually knew scientists, you'd know they rarely agree on anything.

If anything, the guy or gal that comes up with definitive proof that global climate change is not happening will almost certainly win a Nobel Prize. There's probably more incentive to disprove global warming, since it will lead to more glory, grants, and prizes, as well as indicating that we're not all heading towards planetary doom. It's win-win!



Jul 26, 2010 at 05:12 PM
rhyder
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p.1 #5 · Climate change Sceptics


E-Vener wrote:
While you are fact checking you might want to "follow the money" for your self and see who is funding the climate change skeptics. I know you like to think for yourself so you'll need to do the research for that one for yourself.


+10



Jul 26, 2010 at 05:53 PM
CGrindahl
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p.1 #6 · Climate change Sceptics


I always marvel when conversations about picture taking and photo gear morph into discussions about politics or in this case, contentious scientific issues. There are abundant opportunities to engage in what I call rhetorical rugby elsewhere online. There is hardly a need to do so on this site, in my opinion. I have plenty of opinions and have spent a great deal of time expressing them in other forums, but here I prefer to keep my powder dry and mouth shut. In truth, it doesn't matter how many people say stupid or offensive things. The only one whose mouth requires my management, is my own...


Jul 26, 2010 at 08:09 PM
borderlight
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p.1 #7 · Climate change Sceptics


E-Vener wrote:
While you are fact checking you might want to "follow the money" for your self and see who is funding the climate change skeptics. I know you like to think for yourself so you'll need to do the research for that one for yourself.

Big oil is against alternative energy, obviously. However, they aren't the ones supporting the dissenting climatoligists, some whose opinions have been silenced or just not counted. Most of the Ph.D scientist's who don't buy into the theory are shunned. Oil companies want all the pie to themselves. I think big oil's monopoly sucks too. I agree with alternative energy. I just don't like Gore and company turning it into a monetary windfall through cap & trade.

G. Thomas wrote:

From one of Barry's links.

You should read the reader's comments on that link, not just the article writer's position. The comments answer the questions. The point is that there has been a lot of cherry picking of the facts to support a position that has turned most people into true believers. History lesson: It's all about power and money, not who has a Ph.D or a supposed better grasp on the subject.

So summing up the climate is warming... slightly, but it is laughable that all the people of the world should feel guilty because of it. Anybody think it's the sun going through phases like it has throughout history?








Jul 26, 2010 at 08:48 PM
ontime
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p.1 #8 · Climate change Sceptics


Barry Pehlman wrote:
It's all about power and money, not who has a Ph.D or a supposed better grasp on the subject.


I'd say this is a phenomenon you'd observe in a lot of academia. It's just a symptom of a flawed system.

You're debating the politics, not the science. Debate the science. Most people who argue for or against climate change don't know sh*t about the subject they're talking about, so they just regurgitate the information they gleaned from their favorite writer/newscaster.

Unfortunately, that's what we're left to in this world. Topics like this are simply too complex for anyone but the well trained to discuss properly. I've read dozens upon dozens (maybe hundreds?) of psychological studies and still can't fully understand half of them. It perplexes me when people (who haven't studied psychology) read about a "new study" in a Men's Health magazine or something and start making grand conclusions about human behavior. Science is so utterly distorted in our world because no one can understand the implications of any of it but scientists. And even them, well, enter the first day of Physiology of the Brain class, you'll be greeted with a "good morning, welcome to class. We don't know sh*t about how the brain works but you're going to learn about what we do know." You get home from class and on a random Wikipedia spree you come across the article for turbulence and you realize we don't know sh*t about anything at all.



Jul 27, 2010 at 01:10 AM
borderlight
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p.1 #9 · Climate change Sceptics


Ontime: I don't think you have to be a scientist to understand how science can be manipulated. The climatologists for the IPCC and other organizations are probably all brilliant men & women, but that doesn't mean that other equally intelligent climatologists must all agree with their peer's conclusions, or not challenge the methods they used. It is a large assumption to believe that those who disagree must be supported by sinister corporations. It's far from the truth and there is no evidence to prove it. Oil companies, if that's the reference for the counter argrument, don't need discredited scientists to pick up the slack for their agenda. They are doing just fine without them.

I've read the pros and cons of the GW arguments. It's not important for us to scientifically challenge their findings because, as you implied, we aren't in the business, but it is necessary to understand how their findings will affect taxes, and those who will reap windfall profits by taking advantage of our ignorance.

We bought into WMDs in Iraq when there weren't any to be found. It cost the U.S. trillions of dollars and many lives. The information we assumed to be true was later found to be cherry-picked, ignored, or reliable sources were discredited to prove the case for war. Now when we have emails by the authors of the GW theory that shows the same backroom manipulation of facts some of us still refuse to connect the dots. Complexity is not an excuse. We shouldn't have to be trained to smell a rat.

For those who think this type of dialogue in the "miscellaneous" forum is not photo worthy, you're right. But the definition of "miscellaneous" is: "dealing with or interested in diverse subjects". That this is.






Jul 27, 2010 at 03:29 AM
ontime
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p.1 #10 · Climate change Sceptics


Good point, Barry.

This is something I've actually been wanting to write about in a book or essay. I agree with what you're saying, but I wanted to point out that as the ideas we use to describe our world become seemingly "more accurate," they also increase in complexity. People need to be in school for more years to understand them. Thus, we fall back on politics in our discussions and we're easily manipulated. That's a problem.



Jul 27, 2010 at 09:22 AM
borderlight
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p.1 #11 · Climate change Sceptics


The older you get the more you see the SOS happening over and over but it's just dressed up in a different wrapper. You don't need more schooling to deflect being "snookered" as the White House was this past week courtesy of Fox News. Steven Spielberg should have been smart enough to know that Bernie Madoff' 20% return on investment was eventually going to come to a bad ending. Tom Cruise and John Travolta - Scientology... really? I'm not even going to get into understanding the rationale of the diverse thoughts of Tea Bag Party.... that would take another sentence. Smart people, well-educated people can have surprisingly offbeat beliefs.

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." ----------- George W. Bush.




Jul 27, 2010 at 11:17 AM
GC5
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p.1 #12 · Climate change Sceptics



There seems to be evidence that there has been some global warming over the last few decades (with a plateau or downturn for the past few years - ignoring this year). What there does not seem to be is ample evidence: (a) that this is manmade, (b) that any of the proposed solutions would do anything about it. More importantly, there has been no meaningful effort to show how any of the proposed solutions would do anything but devestate the world's economies (with the exceptions of a few companies poised to strike it big under the proposed schemes). In any case, most of the proposals seem to be more about politics than results and would do far more harm than good. No reason for anyone to get in a huff about it one way or the other on a photography forum.

As stewards of our environment, it seems common sense that we do what we can to reduce our consumption and pollution and make efforts to develop cleaner energy alternatives (i.e. nukes, wind and solar or anything else if we can make it cost-effective). I stop short at government mandates to restructure major parts of our economies or daily life.

So, knowing that my opinion will sway everyone, there you have it. Now, how many megapixels does climate change have?



Jul 27, 2010 at 12:58 PM
E-Vener
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p.1 #13 · Climate change Sceptics


What there does not seem to be is ample evidence: (a) that this is manmade,

Outside of the coincidence that it tracks slightly behind the increased processing and consumption of fossil hydrocarbon fuels and slash and burn deforestation based agriculture on an immense scale you are correct.

b) the way to cut global consumption of fossil fuels is one that no one who is serious advocates: radical population reduction.



Jul 27, 2010 at 07:41 PM
E-Vener
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p.1 #14 · Climate change Sceptics


http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=1557


Jul 27, 2010 at 09:50 PM
wickerprints
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p.1 #15 · Climate change Sceptics


The reason for the existence of political maneuvering in any kind of policy stemming from scientific study is because science, at its core, is not about trying to determine absolute certainties to deep and complex questions, nor is it equipped to address the social consequences of those conclusions that it does make.

Science is wonderful. Its firm rooting in logic, reason, and evidence-based analysis, stands in contrast to superstition, faith, dogma, and fear-mongering. It is the clear basis for the sum of all human knowledge. But if there is one thing that science and religion share, it is its susceptibility to being manipulated to suit the needs of the powerful and wealthy.

However, knowing that science can be misappropriated for political purposes is not even remotely the same as being able to undo that manipulation--that is, to pull back the thick veil of corrupt misdirection and look at the science for what it is. To do that requires real scientific education and training. It is no coincidence that so few members of the non-scientific public are even aware of the inherent nuances of scientific discourse let alone are capable of understanding it. We live in a society where ambiguity is perceived as weakness and certainty--even if wrong--is considered a strength. We live among people who are suspicious of intelligence and education because they are too stupid to think for themselves yet too proud to be dumb. Our society wants convenient, easily digested answers. That is the reason for the appeal of organized religion and the influence of our public officials.

And scientists simply do not think that way.



Jul 27, 2010 at 10:49 PM
darryn patch
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p.1 #16 · Climate change Sceptics


Well here in Oz our government is proposing an emissions trading scheme that is proposed to cut our carbon emmissions by,

wait for it



.4% of the worlds total

thats, like nothing. How will that help?? and as I have read China and India will emmitt our annual savings in less than 14 hours


I don't doubt that the world is changing but I ask how can this be.


My grandad has lived in the same house for 75 years, and In all that time he has never had to put a towel over a window in his loungeroom to pervent the sun shining straight in his face

But in the last 5 years every summer up goes the towel, but never before??


How can that be?? has the house moved?? Nope, has the sun moved nope, has the continent moved?? nope, so how can the sun now shine where it never did before in 75 years

i've read that this is beacuse the earth is not spinning on the same axis it has previously and due to the extra build up of ice on the pole it has caused a slight disruption to the earths axis?? Sounds plausable but i am not smart enough to fully understand the science behind it.

they say spin a globe watch it, then spin it again with a hunk of chewing gum attached to the bottom and see how it rotates differently??

CC has been going on since the dawn of time and will continue till the earth crashes into the sun. Can we change it?? I doubt it can we make sure we live in a cleaner less pollutive enviroment?? definately. but will big business make the change?? I doubt it.




Jul 28, 2010 at 01:43 AM
borderlight
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p.1 #17 · Climate change Sceptics


E-Vener:

Unstoppable Global Warming.... Every 1,500 Years

http://www.amazon.com/Unstoppable-Global-Warming-Every-Years/dp/0742551172

Touche



Jul 28, 2010 at 06:24 AM
E-Vener
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p.1 #18 · Climate change Sceptics


I'm a conservative, and that is why I conserve energy anyway I can

I know that some people who call themselves conservatives are skeptical of the existence od global climate change

but here are the way I see things as a conservative:

I oppose the trillions of dollars in wealth distribution from the United States and Europe to governments that don't have our best interests at heart: Saudi Arabia, Libya, , every country lining the Persian Gulf, Hugo Chavez's Communist dictatorship in Venezuela, Nigeria, Russia, et. al.

I oppose the taxation without representation being imposed on the USA by multi-national energy companies who are beholding to no one except generating short term profits. Greed is not good.

As for the argument summed up i the phrase "drill here, drill now." Any honest petroleum geologist will tell you the easy oil is gone. Which is why you have companies like BP and Swiss based Transoceanic having to drill in ever riskier deep sea environments off shore., and don't forget what happened i the Gulf of Mexico earlier this year which more and more looks like BP's management putting short term profits first by minimizing operating costs beyond a reasonable safety level.

What are we burning up when we use fossil fuels? Reserves of energy laid down over hundreds of millions of years. while I thin k we do need to make use of those stores, we need to recognize that taking those trillions of BTUs that were underground and burning them on the surface has to have an effect on the environment we live in. The environment is not separate from us, we are not separate from it.

Even if you don't except the evidence that the earth is billions of year old, look at the Bible and the Talmud: we are tasked with being stewards of the land, of our resources. Does consuming as much as we can as fast as we can fulfill that task?

Except for incoming solar radiation the earth is pretty much a closed system. Burn fossil fuels in the form of coal, or petroleum and you are just moving energy from one place to another. if you think that isn't effecting the climate we live in, you should try thinking a little harder.




Jul 28, 2010 at 11:26 AM
borderlight
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p.1 #19 · Climate change Sceptics


Ellis: Relax. We are on the same page. As you and others have mentioned, we need to take better care of our planet. I'm for heavier fines on companies that pollute, or become too lazy to enforce safety. People need to stop cutting down the Amazon rain forests. Everyone needs to recycle, not just 25%. We need more alternative energies, badly .... and the list goes on. And no, I not running for president.

Responsible action to ensure our planet's health cannot be accomplished in an atomosphere of panic fueled by the constant cries from the media to reach hasty decisions just because Al Gore made a movie that frightened the gullible. Even the producer of Gore's off-the-chart, error-filled lecture/movie is invested up to the teeth in the future cap & trade bonanza if congressional legislation goes his way. All the guys who stand to profit are just waiting in the wings for us to swallow another lie. Believe me, God has the final say on the end of days not celebrities, brainy climatologists, or those who awarded the Nobel Prize to Chicken Little.

In the meantime, it would be helpful to understand CC science, in layman's terms, of what's really going down (link). For instance: the IPCC is not a scientific body: it is a consensus-oriented political body. -- Dr. Julian Morris of the UK-based International Policy Network. Nice to know, especially when the IPCC is the one that dishes out the doom and gloom. IPCC members also include those with BS, and MS degrees like the kind you might need to be a TV weatherman.

Consensus 1992-Style: The advent of a new ice age, scientists say, appears to be guaranteed. The devastation will be astonishing. -- Gregg Easterbrook, "Return of the Glaciers," Newsweek, November 23, 1992.







Jul 28, 2010 at 03:29 PM
E-Vener
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p.1 #20 · Climate change Sceptics


'Even the producer of Gore's off-the-chart, error-filled lecture/movie is invested up to the teeth in the future cap & trade bonanza if congressional legislation goes his way. All the guys who stand to profit are just waiting in the wings for us to swallow another lie"

And any profits their investments make on an annual basis will be a drop in the bucket compared to the money the coal companies and petroleum companies make daily.

Maybe you need to relax your defensive posture. The climate is changing, one would be a fool to think that all of the energy we constantly release on the planets surface through our consumption of fossil fuels isn't one of the reasons for that change.

At least you don't seem to be denying that glaciers are in retreat around the world (not all of them of course, there are some exceptions, but far more than are staying the same or enlarging) and that the polar icecaps are melting.



Jul 28, 2010 at 06:04 PM
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