Peter (muc_martin) : also wishing you a successful Lappland trip. I love your alpine images BTW
Thanks for likes
Manoj, jojomon and uhoh7 - thanks for comments ( uhoh7 must PM you re KTMs etc)
Manoj - nice character studies, but I never realised SAP gatherings could be so interesting
Gary C - snazzy ZM25 graffiti shots
One recent taken with my only genuine Leica M lens, a type 4 coded 50Cron
So, now I am at a crossroads: an M9 I bought from this forum back in Jul13 had a known issue with its SD card interface. I could not fix that, but Leica AG came to the party and have fixed it free of charge - outstanding customer support ( was 2nd or 3rd hand and not under warranty). I will get the cam next week and apparently it will have a brand new sensor/rear screen/SD card assembly. I wonder will it have sapphire-glass?
The crossroads is whether I sell that, keep my M8 and buy the A7R that's calling to me; or keep the M9 and sell the M8. I also have an M6 Classic ( little-used but available to exploit my M lens wides etc), a 5D3 for sports action and a Nex5N which will go to my daughter if she will use it, or get converted into a full-spectrum or IR cam.
I enjoy using the RF and will not be without one, but the M9 value will easily see a new A7R in my stable. The benefits of no AA filter are clear, hence why it will be the 7R and not the 7, even with its performance issues with wides etc.
The 5D3 may also go - if so I will slum it with my old 40D (given to another daughter) when I go to motorcycle GP events, if I get the A7R
Please help me choose!
I have not shot my M9 due to buying it cheaply with it's SD problem, but it was the images on this thread that got me into Leica Ms directly!
lenticular11 wrote:
Please help me choose!
I have not shot my M9 due to buying it cheaply with it's SD problem, but it was the images on this thread that got me into Leica Ms directly!
David Mc
Asking this question on a Leica thread, you won't get much love for Sony . If you like shooting RF, then I would keep the M9. I had a M8, film M and FX Nikon at one point. Switching between IR and UV filters and also figuring crop factor for lenses to carry between M8 and my film M was quite frustrating. Nikon FX is capable most of the time but no soul and too heavy. M9 made me a happy camper and for a long time was my only digital body which travelled the world with me
Seriously, as innovative and cheap the A7R is, Sony will have you upgrading to a "better" model every 6 or so months. And because they push innovation hard and don't even know where they are heading with their camera and lenses with a clear roadmap, you will always end up with a compromised camera. 18MP on the M9 is good enough for most users. Do you really need 36MP on a soulless A7R?
There is always a chance that the digital M might have issues at some point, but once those are fixed and you get through the initial frustrations, you should be alright, otherwise, this thread would have ceased to exist a long time back.
So, now I am at a crossroads: an M9 I bought from this forum back in Jul13 had a known issue with its SD card interface. I could not fix that, but Leica AG came to the party and have fixed it free of charge - outstanding customer support ( was 2nd or 3rd hand and not under warranty). I will get the cam next week and apparently it will have a brand new sensor/rear screen/SD card assembly. I wonder will it have sapphire-glass?
The crossroads is whether I sell that, keep my M8 and buy the A7R that's calling to me; or keep the M9 and sell the M8. I also have an M6 Classic ( little-used but available to exploit my M lens wides etc), a 5D3 for sports action and a Nex5N which will go to my daughter if she will use it, or get converted into a full-spectrum or IR cam.
I enjoy using the RF and will not be without one, but the M9 value will easily see a new A7R in my stable. The benefits of no AA filter are clear, hence why it will be the 7R and not the 7, even with its performance issues with wides etc.
The 5D3 may also go - if so I will slum it with my old 40D (given to another daughter) when I go to motorcycle GP events, if I get the A7R
Please help me choose!
I have not shot my M9 due to buying it cheaply with it's SD problem, but it was the images on this thread that got me into Leica Ms directly!
So easy: of course you keep your now "new" M9. Nothing on earth can touch it in daylight. Sell the M8. Sell the M6. Sell the 5D. Forget the A7R, save another 600, and get the fantastic A7.
A7 + M9 is dream combo. M9 rules the day. A7 rules the night and can CF AF shoot movies, and any lens on earth.
The A7r needs native glass to shine, and even then you won't see it over the plain A7 anywhere but a billboard. It's terrible with a host of great RF lenses and SLR lenses that the A7 good or decent with.
Take all that money you made/saved invest in the glass you need.
Joe - such nice detail in that shot! Good to see you posting again…
David - I suggest you sell the M8, keep the M9, and forget (if you can) about the A7. With the extra money, perhaps look at another nice Leica lens?
There is not much graffiti here in Calgary so I maybe went a bit overboard with the shots from this alley. Last one's - promise!
Joe, uhoh7 and Gary- thanks very much for the quick and emphatic replies.
Gary - I particularly like the last 2 alley shots in your last post.
The main thrust of my reasoning re selling the M9 is nervousness about its longevity and therefore supportability into the future: it's one thing if a $1500 M8 becomes unsupportable, another if a $3500-4000 M9 does so.
I have been lucky with 2 M8s so far ( the 2nd one replaced the first, because the M9 was lost to me for 6 months). M8 and M9 different issues have been well documented. I know that problems get reported more often than do happy owner tales, and I have no issue with expected fantastic output from the M9, however the long delay in receiving Leica's generous repair was due to sensor QC problems.
Sorry to be a pessimist here, but I probably characterise it as more circumspection, from a basis also that I really like what the inferior M8 can produce.
Yes, the A7 is another strong option, however the price difference from the 7R here in Aus is $540, not massive enough to seriously be a factor.
As I reported, I can live without shooting my CV21/4 and ZM25 on the 7R, knowing that at least one of these would be terrible! Sony Australia are giving buyers a free Metabones EF / or M / other adapter with new purchases of either cam until the end of March.
I rarely use EF lenses on my 5D except for Motorsport, so the A7 attraction is from that alt-lens basis. No doubt Sony will iterate their A7 products in due course and I know they are not approaching cameras from the same philosophy, however there are too many extremely satisfied owners to dismiss (Charles K, Edward Karaa amongst the respected members of this thread).
I think it all comes down to your own personal needs/wants. I agree the A7 looks to be a super camera and I have seen some amazing shots from it. It is just a matter of whether or not you want to commit to a new system. If you are set on the A7r, perhaps buy it and keep the M8? These are all really great options to be honest, so it is a win-win however you look at it. Just make sure to keep one Leica or you may regret it!
Thanks Gary, I absolutely will keep a Leica M. The RF experience is uniquely engaging and forces you to be more contemplative almost back to a film-conservation style. I find M and R lenses (big generalisation here) to have wonderful bokeh and colour characters and that's also a huge factor I think, apart from other great lenses like our ZM25.
lenticular11 wrote:
Joe, uhoh7 and Gary- thanks very much for the quick and emphatic replies.
Gary - I particularly like the last 2 alley shots in your last post.
The main thrust of my reasoning re selling the M9 is nervousness about its longevity and therefore supportability into the future: it's one thing if a $1500 M8 becomes unsupportable, another if a $3500-4000 M9 does so.
I have been lucky with 2 M8s so far ( the 2nd one replaced the first, because the M9 was lost to me for 6 months). M8 and M9 different issues have been well documented. I know that problems get reported more often than do happy owner tales, and I have no issue with expected fantastic output from the M9, however the long delay in receiving Leica's generous repair was due to sensor QC problems.
Sorry to be a pessimist here, but I probably characterise it as more circumspection, from a basis also that I really like what the inferior M8 can produce.
Yes, the A7 is another strong option, however the price difference from the 7R here in Aus is $540, not massive enough to seriously be a factor.
As I reported, I can live without shooting my CV21/4 and ZM25 on the 7R, knowing that at least one of these would be terrible! Sony Australia are giving buyers a free Metabones EF / or M / other adapter with new purchases of either cam until the end of March.
I rarely use EF lenses on my 5D except for Motorsport, so the A7 attraction is from that alt-lens basis. No doubt Sony will iterate their A7 products in due course and I know they are not approaching cameras from the same philosophy, however there are too many extremely satisfied owners to dismiss (Charles K, Edward Karaa amongst the respected members of this thread). ...Show more →
i'm a big proponent of sony mirrorless and i can't imagine being forced to use a rangefinder, but since you actually like rangefinders, even i'll say you should probably go with the m9. the m9 should be supportable for a lot longer than a7 just because leica does a much better job of supporting it's products than sony (edward's experience in thailand not withstanding). leica customers have come to expect extended support over many years (though it's often not quick) while sony customers (and sony themselves) tend to think of their products as something that will be replaced in a year or two. my understanding is that leica has a significant stockpile of the necessary replacement parts for the m9 to last quite some time even though many of them are no longer produced. i suspect that in 5 years there will be a much larger percentage of m9s still going than a7(r)s.
from the lens standpoint, any lens under 35mm that you can mount on an m9 will perform better on the m9 than an a7. some of the longer lenses will perform better on the a7(r), but not by that much. if you have a particular lens that you love i would go with whichever camera works better with that lens, otherwise i'd choose based on whether you enjoy looking through a rangefinder window or an evf better.
the only other caveat to that is that if you're really interested in using non-rangefinder alt lenses, the a7(r) will obviously be much better for that.
sebboh wrote:
i'm a big proponent of sony mirrorless and i can't imagine being forced to use a rangefinder, but since you actually like rangefinders, even i'll say you should probably go with the m9. the m9 should be supportable for a lot longer than a7 just because leica does a much better job of supporting it's products than sony (edward's experience in thailand not withstanding). leica customers have come to expect extended support over many years (though it's often not quick) while sony customers (and sony themselves) tend to think of their products as something that will be replaced in a year or two. my understanding is that leica has a significant stockpile of the necessary replacement parts for the m9 to last quite some time even though many of them are no longer produced. i suspect that in 5 years there will be a much larger percentage of m9s still going than a7(r)s.
from the lens standpoint, any lens under 35mm that you can mount on an m9 will perform better on the m9 than an a7. some of the longer lenses will perform better on the a7(r), but not by that much. if you have a particular lens that you love i would go with whichever camera works better with that lens, otherwise i'd choose based on whether you enjoy looking through a rangefinder window or an evf better.
the only other caveat to that is that if you're really interested in using non-rangefinder alt lenses, the a7(r) will obviously be much better for that.
Thanks Derek
I have a swag if non RF alt lenses and I started in that domain so yes, my 'crossroads' includes that factor
I've perused the A7 threads enough to know the A7 / A7r foibles to some extent and certainly the RF wideangle issue with 7R particularly
As for M9 parts, Leica directly cited Quality problems with a new supplier of the sensor, as reason for it taking 6 months to fix my and many other goodwill sensor replacements , hence my pessimism despite my own good experience re their support to a non- warranty issue.
Just found out about this and bridesmaid again (LoL) in this Leica sponsored contest. This time I got two Mark of Excellence Awards in the top 37 out of almost 1300 entries. Top prize of $12,000 and an $8000 Leica MM
Heres the link. My photos are on line 6 photo on the left and line 17 also on the left. http://www.i-shot-it.com/competition.php?id=524765d120d0f&page=0
Robert - you must post more often here! Very nice pics.
Allen - better luck next time but I think your images are superb. I entered a pic I took in Thailand but they probably threw it in the trash right away...
Gary Clennan wrote:
Robert - you must post more often here! Very nice pics.
Allen - better luck next time but I think your images are superb. I entered a pic I took in Thailand but they probably threw it in the trash right away...
+1 sebboh wrote:
i'm a big proponent of sony mirrorless and i can't imagine being forced to use a rangefinder,
I know what you mean. I'm squiting throught that VF, thinking that patch is tiny!!!! You have to point the whole camera to focus a corner.
The results keep you going, then regular use it begins to grow on you.
@lenticular
If the A7 was 600 more than the A7R I would still buy it. Having shot 5k frames or more with the R, I could not recommend it to anyone planning to use non-native glass on it.
I had very high hopes and expectations for the camera, but reality is it's a terribly quirky beast, sensor wise. I have 35+ SLR lenses and not one I tried was not better on A7.
Having fallen for the "36" and pics of little sensor wells myself, I'm not speaking as a know-everything. I learned the hard way.
Just be sure to buy with a 30 day return and cover the glass right away if you do go R.
Only tests which really show it's issues are landscapes f/8 and faster. Study distant details edge v center.
As to M9 durability, they have been carried everywhere and hammered. A few have issues, but most are fine. If you have one that works and love pristine detail and the high contrast "look"--like color slide film, then you owe yourself the pleasure.
I've been saying the A7 is way better in low light, but the M9 with CV 35/1.2 is better sometimes:
Well, Charlie, as long as your M9 works, enjoy it. It seems Leica ran out of some spare parts including sensors. The latest sensor batch has a problem with the coatings that will delaminate. They have used the bad batch also on ME and MM cameras. My understanding is that they have changed the entire sensor toppings, so those who get new sensors may get different results than before.
I am also quite puzzled by their lack of courtesy. After I've heard only nice things about their customer service, I am shocked by the way they treat me. After it took 6 weeks for my camera to reach Solms, all what they can tell me is that they will replace the sensor as soon as new sensors are in stock. Since that, I have sent 2 emails asking when do they get the new sensors, they just ignore the emails. I imagine the new policy is if you have no good news for the client, keep quiet.
The problem is I have spent 7K on a new camera on which I have evidence it was delaminating already when I bought it, and now after one year of use, it has to be serviced for 4-6 months and they don't even apologize for the inconvenience or offer me any loaner or an upgrade option. So IMHO, just pray your camera won't need servicing
edwardkaraa wrote:
Well, Charlie, as long as your M9 works, enjoy it. It seems Leica ran out of some spare parts including sensors. The latest sensor batch has a problem with the coatings that will delaminate. They have used the bad batch also on ME and MM cameras. My understanding is that they have changed the entire sensor toppings, so those who get new sensors may get different results than before.
I am also quite puzzled by their lack of courtesy. After I've heard only nice things about their customer service, I am shocked by the way they treat me. After it took 6 weeks for my camera to reach Solms, all what they can tell me is that they will replace the sensor as soon as new sensors are in stock. Since that, I have sent 2 emails asking when do they get the new sensors, they just ignore the emails. I imagine the new policy is if you have no good news for the client, keep quiet.
The problem is I have spent 7K on a new camera on which I have evidence it was delaminating already when I bought it, and now after one year of use, it has to be serviced for 4-6 months and they don't even apologize for the inconvenience or offer me any loaner or an upgrade option. So IMHO, just pray your camera won't need servicing ...Show more →
Luckily you have A7 and are shooting great pics I see
The M9 I bought had it's sensor replaced 1 month ago I will worry about it when it fails--more likely I drop the drop camera than I have sensor delam i think. Or I wear out the shutter
. If you like shooting RF, then I would keep the M9. I had a M8, film M and FX Nikon at one point. Switching between IR and UV filters and also figuring crop factor for lenses to carry between M8 and my film M was quite frustrating. Nikon FX is capable most of the time but no soul and too heavy. M9 made me a happy camper and for a long time was my only digital body which travelled the world with me 
