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Archive 2010 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?

  
 
hlavo
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p.4 #1 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


PurplePix wrote:
There is a need (and a market) for a weather-sealed, professional dx camera. In the same way as there is a need for a semi-pro dx type dslr, like the D90. The D300 is not a mistake.
If the replacement to the D90 outperforms the D300s in some areas, that too is not a mistake. It is but natural. The d300s is just an upgraded D300 which is 3.5 yrs. old now. The replacement to the D90 is a new camera, not an upgrade. For Nikon to dumb it down just so a 3.5 yr. old camera would perform better would
...Show more

I didn't say the replacement for the D90 shouldn't outperform the D300s, I said the D90 already does.....in high iso performance in particular, and in a few other areas as well.



Jul 27, 2010 at 12:56 PM
hlavo
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p.4 #2 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


Jammy Straub wrote:
In what important ways does the D90 outperform the D300s?

I think the D300 was a lovely idea, it gave legions of D2x & D200 shooters a way to get cleaner high-ISO while keeping their DX lens lineup with an upgrade in AF tracking. Remember for years Nikon insisted DX was how it was going to be and was here to stay for pro work.

I disagree about leaving video out of bodies too, it's value add for the camera, and value add as a potential product for many pros.


High iso performance.and Active D-Lighting. That's leaving aside the video.

As to the rest, you have your opinions; I have mine. It made sense when Nikon was firmly a DX line-up; it no longer does IMO now that the full frame cameras have pretty clearly established a "pro line".



Jul 27, 2010 at 01:00 PM
hlavo
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p.4 #3 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


Rodolfo Paiz wrote:
Two things your marketing experience should have taught you: there is no single and unique "right" answer, and a too-strong adherence to theory and dogma will get your company and products turned into competitive roadkill as the other people focus on what works rather than what is supposed to work.

The D300 was a pro camera, marked and marketed that way at all times and in every way. Weathersealing, metal body construction, AF engine, frame rate, shutter life, and other features, along with every single piece of Nikon marketing, clearly placed the D300 as a pro camera. So even from
...Show more

I really don't need a lecture on marketing.....I've had enough major successes in that area for two people. Nor have I ever said I have a lock on the truth. But I am analytical in assessing market segmentation. I am simply saying that generally to market well you need to clearly delineate the product against the consumer segment.....that doesn't mean there will be no crossover, and in some ways it makes reaching for the higher status line even more desireable. But confusion is the enemy of successful marketing, and Nikon no longer seems to know where the D300 fits in its lineup.....nor do many potential users as a result. So they are going to have to do something to alleviate that confusion.

Do you seriously believe that if Nikon were to start over right now with a camera lineup, they would have exactly the product that the model D300 is, positioned right where it is? I don't.



Jul 27, 2010 at 01:06 PM
PurplePix
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p.4 #4 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


hlavo wrote:
I didn't say the replacement for the D90 shouldn't outperform the D300s, I said the D90 already does.....in high iso performance in particular, and in a few other areas as well.

That was not directed to you, Harry! It is a response to other posters who say that the replacement to the D90 should, in no way, outperform the D300s.
I do believe, however, that calling the D300 a mistake is, well, a big mistake!
The price point alone justifies its existence. The D90 body is about 1K, the D700 about 2.7K. Big gap there that the D300 fills nicely.Performance-wise, there is a real need for the D300 series. Just ask the wildlife shooters.



Jul 27, 2010 at 01:45 PM
poisonpill
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p.4 #5 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


There are people that want a $1,500 body. Some of those people don't care FX or DX. Some of those people specifically want DX.

I don't see why that's so hard to understand.



Jul 27, 2010 at 02:14 PM
nugeny
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p.4 #6 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


PurplePix wrote:
[.


"maybe we can have a 24 mp. FF with D3s noise levels. Magic indeed!"

Actually I count on it. This time next year we will be planning to buy this magic caMERA.




Jul 27, 2010 at 02:44 PM
Rodolfo Paiz
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p.4 #7 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


hlavo wrote:
I really don't need a lecture on marketing.....I've had enough major successes in that area for two people.


Your successes are irrelevant to this discussion, as are mine and anyone else's who cares to participate. Which is why you'll notice I have not boasted about my own achievements, or anyone else's. Check your ego at the door, please.

I don't believe I lectured you. But if that's how perceive it, then fine... I fail to see anything wrong in my doing so. You expressed an opinion, I expressed mine. Neither one of us has to like it, OK? All that is asked of us is to keep the conversation civil, and ideally on-topic.

hlavo wrote:
Nikon no longer seems to know where the D300 fits in its lineup.....nor do many potential users as a result.


I fail to see any evidence of confusion -- Nikon's or anyone else's -- in either this discussion or the overall marketplace. The D300's placement seems to be very clear to me. What is it that confuses you? Or, if you believe that only Nikon and other users are confused, what leads you to believe that they are indeed confused?



Jul 27, 2010 at 02:53 PM
Tim Ashton
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p.4 #8 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


Getting back to the thrust of the original post, there are rumours being published that Sony are backing away from FX sensors and putting their resources into DX.

That being so, may be there is substance to Nikon rumours rumours.

Tim



Jul 27, 2010 at 06:31 PM
hlavo
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p.4 #9 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


Let me try to wrap this line segmentation thing up. I am not necessarily talking DX vs FX. I am talking build and features, size and weight first and foremost. So let me put it this way.

* Is the D300 bottom of the "pro" line of full-frame cameras, as Nikon now clearly treats them and the community of pros clearly views them. I suggest not. The D700 fills that role.

* Is the D300 top of the amateur line of DX cameras. I would argue not. This segment wants lower cost, lighter weight, more bells and whistles, scene functions, in-camera editing, video for-nothing even if its not top quality, etc. I would suggest the D300 doesn't really fill this role. The D90 comes closer, and its successor, especially if beefed up a bit in body construction, would, might, and certainly could.

So where does that leave the D300(s). Nowhere, that I can see.....unless Nikon builds a distinct new mid-line around its position via its sucessor(s). And the easierst way to do that would be with a yet another resolution and/or crop factor, and borrowing build from the pro line, and dropping features primarily of interest to the amateur buyers. This is what the D400 rumours suggest.

An alternative would be to move the D300 up via the D400, make it full frame, give it something like the D700 sensor and move that body up in low-light capability. However the bodies are already so close this might be a difficult segmentation to pull off - the practical aspects are why I think this won't happen.

Another alternative is to move the D300(s) down, keeping it DX for constency but dropping some build quality and pro-featurs and price and adding some amateur-desired features. It would then slot in ahead of the D90 or merge with it as a replacment and be a true top-of-the-amateur-line camera. Nothing in that position would cause it not to take long lenses for those who wanted to do birding or wildlife on the cheap despite Nikon at that point basically emphasizing DX as the amateur standard and FX as the pro standard.. This is where I jumped into the discussion initially.

But clearly Nikon has to move in one of these directions. The D300 as it sits fits nowhere but by itself.....pro in build, features, and price, amateur in sensor performance...neither fish nor foul.

ps. When I talk about moving the D300(s) up or down, I am not implying that the model name/number would stay the same....it clearly would not. I am using the D300 moniker to denote the current cluster of featurs, price, and performance that this camera embodies.



Jul 27, 2010 at 07:07 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.4 #10 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


hlavo wrote:
* Is the D300 bottom of the "pro" line of full-frame cameras, as Nikon now clearly treats them and the community of pros clearly views them. I suggest not. The D700 fills that role.

* Is the D300 top of the amateur line of DX cameras. I would argue not. This segment wants lower cost, lighter weight, more bells and whistles, scene functions, in-camera editing, video for-nothing even if its not top quality, etc. I would suggest the D300 doesn't really fill this role. The D90 comes closer, and its successor, especially if beefed up a bit in body construction, would,
...Show more

NEITHER!!!!!!

DX and FX are different formats! Stop thinking DX = consumer and FX = pro. That is NOT the case at all and this is where you are completely misguided.

The D300 is the pro body of the DX format. There are clear advantages in certain cases for DX over FX that some pro shooters need. So, Nikon is providing people with a pro quality DX camera. Clearly there is LARGE demand for such a body.

As for FX, all the offerings are pro quality because the cost of FX is still prohibative to making a consumer camera. That will change at some point in the future, when is anyone's guess.

NOTE: The D300 and the D700 are almost the same camera but for the format. If that does not make it clear to you, I don't know what will.






Jul 27, 2010 at 07:50 PM
Rodolfo Paiz
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p.4 #11 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


I differ from Andre: my answer is "both".

But for similar reasons. The D300 is the top camera in the DX format. The D300 is also the DX-format camera in the pro line (weathersealing, metal body, high frame rate, etc.). The D300 is also, due to cost, the entry-level pro camera. It's all of the above.

I do agree with Andre that there is a fundamental error in your paradigm: you equate "pro" with "FX" and "amateur/consumer" with "DX", and that is simply wrong. The D300 and D700 illustrate that point perfectly, as Andre also mentioned: both are pro cameras, and they are "this-close" to identical except for the sensor size and related pentaprism/viewfinder issues. Your understanding of the current situation is wrong, which is why your thinking about Nikon's future marketing strategies is also flawed.

"Amateur in sensor performance", the man says...



Jul 27, 2010 at 08:20 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.4 #12 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


Rodolfo Paiz wrote:
I differ from Andre: my answer is "both".

But for similar reasons. The D300 is the top camera in the DX format. The D300 is also the DX-format camera in the pro line (weathersealing, metal body, high frame rate, etc.). The D300 is also, due to cost, the entry-level pro camera. It's all of the above.

I do agree with Andre that there is a fundamental error in your paradigm: you equate "pro" with "FX" and "amateur/consumer" with "DX", and that is simply wrong. The D300 and D700 illustrate that point perfectly, as Andre also mentioned: both are pro cameras,
...Show more


Pah! Disagree with me will you?! OK

I like your point that the D300, due to its lower cost is also the entry level pro camera, regardless of format. Nice take!

Along those lines, I do wish they made a version of the D300 with the built-in grip form factor like the D3



Jul 27, 2010 at 10:08 PM
sl1200mk4
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p.4 #13 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


Andre Labonte wrote:
NOTE: The D300 and the D700 are almost the same camera but for the format. If that does not make it clear to you, I don't know what will.



Personally I hope Nikon continue to offer a body design in both DX and FX format like the D300s and D700. Allows me lots of flexibility. I can only wish that the D700 replacement can have 100% viewfinder coverage.



Jul 27, 2010 at 10:52 PM
luminosity
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p.4 #14 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


Andre, I think you should stop holding back and tell us what you really think.




Jul 27, 2010 at 10:57 PM
Jammy Straub
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p.4 #15 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


luminosity wrote:
I think you should stop holding back and tell us what you really think.




I think thinking that Nikon doesn't know where the D300s fits into it's lineup is rubbish. It's the top of the line DX body and the least expensive way to get CAM3500 AF, weather sealing, and dual slots. They still make the 17-55 f/2.8 which is obviously a pro grade lens.

It's aimed squarely at pro's who want DX pixel density without D3x pricing for telework or pro's who won't invest the capital in FX right now. It still has within 1/2 stop of the best noise performance of any crop sensor out there when shooting RAW.

Are the D700 & D3s sensors nicer, of course they are. The are also at least $1000 - 4000 more expensive per body. That $1000 - 4000 isn't going to mean increased revenue for every pro or be a worthwhile expenditure.



Jul 27, 2010 at 11:24 PM
pdxflint
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p.4 #16 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


The comment about the D300 having amateur sensor performance just made me laugh out loud..I think hlavo has been reading too much in too many forums , and hasn't had to earn a living shooting with a D300 (or D300s.) There are clearly performance considerations which don't necessarily translate into purely comparative image quality for pixel peepers, and might not be worth it to some non-pros, but are certainly in demand by many buyers, pro or otherwise.

I can't see how Nikon is confused about the D300(s)'s place in their lineup since they've sold a hell of a lot of them (to pros and non-pros.) And, when the D300 was first released there was no confusion about it being a substantial, and very welcomed upgrade to the popular D200. I believe the first FX bodies from Nikon were barely hitting the market about the same time, primarily the D3 at nearly $5000. To get most of the features and performance of the new D3 in a DX format camera for well under $2000 at the time was certainly no mistake. In fact, at the time the D300 reset the performance bar for all DX format cameras in every important way. The fact that a later release of a D90 series camera had very slightly better high ISO performance means very little in the real world. The 3.5 year old D300 still trumps the D90 in virtually every way a professional photographer would consider important-- AF performance, fps, battery life, durability, weather sealing, controls, custom configurations. And the successor D300s certainly is as good as the D90 in high ISO performance, shares its rather unnecessary 720p video capability, and adds a second storage slot to an already almost ideal camera.

All Nikon really needs to do is upgrade the processing engine and sensor technology to the latest technology (maybe go to 18mp) and video to 1080p 30fps and you'd have the perfect upgrade for the "new" Dxxx in DX format. Do the same to the D700 (new video capability, bump the FX sensor to 18-24mp, new processor... all yielding improved high ISO performance) and basically keep the existing form factor for the "new" Dxxx in FX format. Both upgrades should be mostly centered around the electronics, not the actual physical bodies, which are already very well designed. If you want to segment the market in some way so the unwitting consumer knows which camera to buy, then definitely put the D300s's successor in the "pro" division, if you must, but dumb it down That would be the same as discontinuing it altogether. And that would be a mistake.

I think sometimes marketers (like hlavo, respectfully... ) want to target the market too narrowly. The way I see it, any tool someone uses to earn a living can be considered a professional piece of gear. Does it need to be labeled as such? Not really, in my opinion. The main issue anyone using a tool every day really has is, does it do the job I need it to do? Is it durable enough to withstand my intended use without wearing out or breaking easily? What is it's useful service life? I'm sure there are cases where a so-called "semi-pro" (god, I hate that term...) camera would serve a pro just fine where all that mattered was the image quality, and not weather or durability to withstand constant transportation and use in the field. So, if you were using the camera strictly in the studio, perhaps a D90 would be as good as a D300s--certainly it can produce images just as good-- but it doesn't make it an equal to the D300(s) overall. So, the need for a top of the line DX body still exists, and not one that is 'less good' than previous generations just because it's DX format.

I'd have to agree with the idea that it's about format, not "pro" vs. "amateur" offerings. In every product line you have the cheaper, less durable and often weaker performing models, and perhaps several levels/tiers of quality/performance. Up until now, due to the expense/cost of FX sensor technology, the only reasonable expectation is for products/models to be near, and top of the line. Once sensor technology gets to the point where FX is cheap enough to be in a consumer-oriented, cheaper built camera, you'll see FX "amateur" cameras. Will it spell the end of DX? Not at all, at least I hope not. And likely the top of the line DX dSLR will embody qualities of what you'd generally think of as a "pro" camera. Typically a professional will choose the top of the line (lenses, bodies, strobes, etc) of whatever format he chooses to shoot with because of the performance and robustness of these tools--simple as that. Whether or not Nikon chooses to label them "pro" or not really wouldn't change a thing about this.



Jul 28, 2010 at 01:00 AM
TonyBeach
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p.4 #17 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


hlavo wrote:
The D300 as it sits fits nowhere but by itself.....pro in build, features, and price, amateur in sensor performance...neither fish nor foul.


Neither fish nor fowl, it's a camera and a darned good one. Calling its sensor amateur is one of the lamest remarks I can recall; I guess that makes the D2x an amateur camera too.



Jul 28, 2010 at 01:26 AM
hlavo
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p.4 #18 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


Rodolfo Paiz wrote:
I differ from Andre: my answer is "both".

But for similar reasons. The D300 is the top camera in the DX format. The D300 is also the DX-format camera in the pro line (weathersealing, metal body, high frame rate, etc.). The D300 is also, due to cost, the entry-level pro camera. It's all of the above.

I do agree with Andre that there is a fundamental error in your paradigm: you equate "pro" with "FX" and "amateur/consumer" with "DX", and that is simply wrong. The D300 and D700 illustrate that point perfectly, as Andre also mentioned: both are pro cameras,
...Show more

Again, let me point out that I only shoot DX, and at best would characterize myself as "semi-pro" (eg. I sell some work but don't make a living at it, and most often just shoot for my own fulfillment.

But there is a reason FX has become the pro choice.

#1 It is cleaner even at base iso.
#2 It performs far better in poor light.

It is simply superior sensor technology. And pros want/need the best and can afford it.

With only a little more work, its performance in cropped mode will outperform and equal in resolution the current DX sensors. When that happens you will see the DX sensor abandoned in droves by pros and those amateurs who can afford the higher priced bodies that contain the full frame sensors.

Does that mean DX has no place? Of course not.....but ultimately not in a pro's bag. Due to the physical/electrical limitations of sensor design, it's performance will never rival the full frame. It is and always will be much, much cheaper to make, and for anything but the most critical use, the trade-off of cost vs. low-light and noise-free performance will be well worth it for those who don't have make substantial income from their photography (or have the means to divert a substantial portion oftheir other income to photography).

Obviously, we have a large group of people who are offended by the word "amateur". But as Nikon develops their line, be prepared....

Keep in mind I never said the D300 was a mistake when it was introduced, I said it now represents a "mistake" in that it doesn't really lend itself to the future.



Jul 28, 2010 at 08:21 AM
sl1200mk4
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p.4 #19 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


pdxflint wrote:
All Nikon really needs to do is upgrade the processing engine and sensor technology to the latest technology (maybe go to 18mp) and video to 1080p 30fps and you'd have the perfect upgrade for the "new" Dxxx in DX format. Do the same to the D700 (new video capability, bump the FX sensor to 18-24mp, new processor... all yielding improved high ISO performance) and basically keep the existing form factor for the "new" Dxxx in FX format. Both upgrades should be mostly centered around the electronics, not the actual physical bodies, which are already very well designed. If you want
...Show more

I agree with you 100%. The body of the D300s and D700 are perfect for my needs. Again, 100% viewfinder coverage on the D700 would be nice. Otherwise the body is a very mature design.

Since 12MP is easily capable of good 11x17 prints. For the D300s and D700 replacement I would even settle for 12MP if the ISO performance can be 2 stops better. I think at this resolution I will benefit more from high ISO performance than the extra resolution.

Higher resolution is always welcome, and I would love to have 24MP on the D700x. But at the end of the day I think we will likely see a D700s with the sensor from the D3s.



Jul 28, 2010 at 08:41 AM
sl1200mk4
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p.4 #20 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


hlavo wrote:
Again, let me point out that I only shoot DX, and at best would characterize myself as "semi-pro" (eg. I sell some work but don't make a living at it, and most often just shoot for my own fulfillment.

But there is a reason FX has become the pro choice.

#1 It is cleaner even at base iso.
#2 It performs far better in poor light.

It is simply superior sensor technology. And pros want/need the best and can afford it.

With only a little more work, its performance in cropped mode will outperform and equal in resolution the current DX sensors. When that happens
...Show more

With all due respect, I disagree. I think whether a camera is suitable for professional use depends solely upon the user. You might think only FF will cut it. Well, some people thinks that only medium format digital back will do. What do you say to that?

Also, while the format makes a big difference it is the feature of the body that counts. If cropped sensor is so evil, then why is the Canon 1.3x 1D series doing so well?

Sometimes cropped sensor does have its advantages. I am upgrading to FF myself but I will still keep a DX body in my bag. Here is what I will be carrying.

D700
D300s
16-35 f/4VR
70-200 f2.8 VRII
+ flash, Stroboframe...etc.

Because of the cropped sensor. I can use the 16-35 as UWA on the D700 and normal zoom on the D300s. I can get more reach out of the 70-200 with the D300s as well. This setup is not without its compromises. But it cost about $3000 less than a dual D700 setup with 16-35, 24-70, 70-200, and 1.4x TC. I for one think that a pro DX body has a future in my bag and I will vote with my money.

A big thank you to Nikon for their smart engineering decisions btw. The D300s and D700 share the same battery, battery grip, battery charger, AC adapter...etc. I hope their replacement will be the same.



Jul 28, 2010 at 09:13 AM
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