Anyway, let bygones be bygones. We can't reel back time and we only lose more time if this continues --typing and reading. I'll take what I've learned and whatever else I can from this and I hope it goes back on topic.
Unjustified rants like these are damaging to both Paul and to Ellis. Paul tries his best to be open about any product shortfalls and actually puts his hand in his pocket to make sure that his customers are satisfied.
Ellis has his journalistic integrity questioned on the world wide web and even though the issues are obviously unfounded some damage is always done. This could affect his income and his position. It's a shame that a gentleman of Ellis's worth is so unthoughtfully maligned.
Hopefully the culprit has come to his senses and will issue a formal appology.
I hadn't heard of Kacey Enterprises before this thread and to be honest, hell would freeze over before i'd ever consider any of his products.
Seanzky wrote:
Let's be fair guys. Paul vs. Jerry is enough. Paul and Ellis vs. Jerry is a little much. But not 4, 5, 6 people against Jerry?
...had to catch up on this soap after not reading it for a day. Now you see why I would have mod'd this thread hard a long time ago. I've seen similar discussions when talking about Bose speakers on a mailing list I mod'd
And I also disagree about this being against Jerry. People are bothered that he decided to attack Ellis which we all respect here as being unbiased. I suggested in Einstein pre-release threads that Ellis be a beta tester precisely because he was unbiased and had lots of experience w/ lots of lighting systems and had published color measurements vs. power in a previous article...he had the gear and experience to do a proper comparative review.
The 40% issue was long ago answered by Tetrode's numbers and on that POTN thread......horse....stick...dead...
kenyee wrote: ...had to catch up on this soap after not reading it for a day. Now you see why I would have mod'd this thread hard a long time ago. I've seen similar discussions when talking about Bose speakers on a mailing list I mod'd
And I also disagree about this being against Jerry. People are bothered that he decided to attack Ellis which we all respect here as being unbiased. I suggested in Einstein pre-release threads that Ellis be a beta tester precisely because he was unbiased and had lots of experience w/ lots of lighting systems and had published color measurements vs. power in a previous article...he had the gear and experience to do a proper comparative review.
The 40% issue was long ago answered by Tetrode's numbers and on that POTN thread......horse....stick...dead... ...Show more →
Well, this is my last post.
I don't know if you know what you're talking about kenyee. If you read just a few posts above, you'll see that Jerry didn't attack Ellis. Jerry didn't even see Ellis coming. So I don't know where you and the others got the part where Jerry "decided to attack Ellis which we all respect here as being unbiased". One day when I'm really bored, I might look back and reread the posts. Maybe I'm wrong and Jerry did "attack" Ellis but as far as I recall, Ellis accused Jerry of spouting gibberish and starting fake drama. So you tell me who attacked who and made this personal. So maybe you rushed "catching up to this soap opera" a little bit and missed some crucial parts, conveniently in support of Ellis, though.
(Hehe. I must say, I have selective reading sometimes, too, when I'm biased towards another party. Human error.)
As for the 40% issue, Paul was the one who raised it. Yes, horse, stick dead on POTN but once again, Paul raised it here on FM. Not me, not Dave, not Jerry, and obviously not on POTN.
Everyone, have a good day! And if we don't see each other on a different thread, have a great weekend!
Like I said before...this has all been quite enlightening.
Nobody's hands are clean here. If you have something to sell and you were involved in this petty disaster of a thread, I'm avoiding your business like the plague. It may only take one person to start an argument, but it takes two (or in this case, three, four or five?) to keep it going. And there is no such thing as "well 'so-and-so' was more at fault." You all were guilty of behaving poorly because you didn't take your grievances off the forum and into a private conversation.
There was a thread some time ago about people saying how they didn't like certain people posting here because they felt that they were pushing their products and it smelled too much like advertising. At the time, I thought such concerns were overstated. Now, with this sordid turn of events, perhaps it's time to reconsider my opinion on the matter.
This thread is long overdue for locking. If I were the proprietors involved, I'd even hope for deletion since this has been ample evidence of all of you embarrassing yourselves and damaging your professional image.
wickerprints wrote:
There was a thread some time ago about people saying how they didn't like certain people posting here because they felt that they were pushing their products and it smelled too much like advertising. At the time, I thought such concerns were overstated. Now, with this sordid turn of events, perhaps it's time to reconsider my opinion on the matter..
Agree with you on the sentiment in your post, however from following the thread, I don' think that the problem is so much product promotion, as it was blatant product bashing that I found to be the issue.
I found most of the posts after #16 to be a serious overreaction from Kacey on what appeared to be to a casual mention that the Elinchrom adapter may not be an efficient design for the Rotalux DO, looking at the images posted, I would reach the same conclusions due to the fact that light emitted from the sides of the flash tube have nowhere to go except into the sides of the mount. It seems silly to me that this comment was taken in such a negative light by Kacey, but forum posts are regularly misinterpreted by readers. The real failure was refusing to pull things back into a positive area and continuing to attack products and individuals (either directly or though inference).
In regards to whether the thread should be locked, I guess it depends on where it goes from here, we have certainly gotten off the original topic, but as long as the ugly tone and topics are eliminated I'm pretty sure that healthy debate isn't necessarily a bad thing.
For what it's worth, I'm glad that both companies are represented on the board by the very people most intimately familiar with them, I think that doing so comes with knowing that you will suffer slings and arrows along the way, but I sometimes think that people sometime forget to treat others online the same way they themselves would like to be treated.
I have asked Ellis a few questions in this exchange. One was how he tested the light going through the back vents of the Einstein. He said he took the side panels off the Einstein and stuck his light meter in and tested how much light was coming through. He then made it a point to say I must not know how the flash is built because you do not need to take off the face plate to take a accurate test. E-Vener wrote:
I tested back when I was doing my review of the Einstein for Professional Photographer Magazine a few months back. I took the covers off and stuck a meter head in. Very little light goes through the slots. Not enough to make a mention of in the review. .
These two mischaracterizations on your part , along with your prior statement that I must have "(taken) the back plate off the housing" and by "housing" I assume you meant the body of the flash, leads me to believe that you haven't ever actually handled an Einstein.
I wanted to verify that this test would even be remotely accurate. I understand how AB is built and I know for sure it would be impossible to do a test like this with a AB. This is why I nicely asked someone to post a picture with the side panel removed.
Here is what a AB looks like behind the faceplate. I'm sure the Einstein is different with all the fancy airflow system Paul said he built into it.
Does everyone think me wanting to verify his test by someone posting a picture some how out of line?
If he is going to back up Buff in a exchange between the two of us. He should be able to make his testing procedures clear. Dave's test was disputed by Buff and Dave went into fine detail of how he did the tests.
Other open questions for Ellis is if he agrees with Paul that every Softbox would need to be redesigned if the flash tube is positioned fully inside the softbox and his (online) feelings of what he thinks about Buff getting PPA awards for products that are still in the design stage.
Paul said I was a flea with little to give the industry and my feeling is without the PPA giving him endorsements for products that have not even being tested yet would effect his bottom line for pre-orderes and being able to hype a invention before its even off paper.
I've have seen years and years of the way Paul treats people online. When he starts talking BS when my products are brought into the picture I will defend myself if I don't agree with his claims. Many have had serious issues with Paul online(Link) If people that read this do not want to purchase something from me that they need because of me defending myself and a little sarcasm aimed at Buff. I can live with that.
Ellis, my comment about magazine reviews was not directed at you whatsoever. Hopefully it wasn't taken as an insult because that was not my intent. Sorry if it was. You seemd to give an honest assesment of the Einstein after using it. That's exactly what a review should be.
"I just want to point out to you guys to be fair to Jerry, too. Your reactions are really overboard and can affect his business, which isn't cool. In this economy we're in right now, how would you feel if you lost your job and had no way of putting food on the table for your family. Please don't put others in that situation. Just think about that before you say something."
Since you mentioned the economy and the importance of retaining customers, perhaps business owners should focus more on keeping customers than driving them away. There are thousands of businesses struggling and there are a thousand more that would love the chance to earn a person's business or keep it. If someone's behavior on a forum costs them a customer, that is something he or she can live with.
Caveat Emptor is not just for buyers anymore. Stick your you know what out here or any forum for that matter as a manufacturer or technical expert and be prepared to get it stepped on sometimes. Can't take the heat get out of the kitchen. Personally, if I want to speak to a manufacturer about their product I send an e-mail or pick up the phone. I come here to get 3rd party info.
You shouldn't have to. My customers don't need to talk to our president to get answers. if your customer service or sales people can't help they need better training. I'm not saying it's not nice to be able to speak with the owner but if the owner put's him or herself out there in a controversial situation he or she has to be prepared for anything.
J___ wrote:
what the heck is this? I just want to keep updated on PLM V2's .... please stop posting BS in this thread so it wont get locked!
To put things back on track, my 51" white PLM V2 with Elinchrom mount was apparently (according to the UPS site) delivered to my house yesterday. I'm currently in Maine and won't be home until Saturday so we'll just have to take it on faith that the PLM V2s have actually started shipping.
tetrode wrote:
To put things back on track, my 51" white PLM V2 with Elinchrom mount was apparently (according to the UPS site) delivered to my house yesterday. I'm currently in Maine and won't be home until Saturday so we'll just have to take it on faith that the PLM V2s have actually started shipping.
Dave F.
Did you get a verification email before that happened?
...had to catch up on this soap after not reading it for a day. Now you see why I would have mod'd this thread hard a long time ago. I've seen similar discussions when talking about Bose speakers on a mailing list I mod'd 
One day when I'm really bored, I might look back and reread the posts. Maybe I'm wrong and Jerry did "attack" Ellis but as far as I recall, Ellis accused Jerry of spouting gibberish and starting fake drama. So you tell me who attacked who and made this personal. So maybe you rushed "catching up to this soap opera" a little bit and missed some crucial parts, conveniently in support of Ellis, though.