Archive 2010 · NJ photography Laws
p.2 #1NJ photography Laws
SteveTuerk wrote:
If there's no league photographer there ought to be one, and why not you?
I looked at your 'sports' website and it's clear to me that you're very capable of doing a bang-up job for that league. BUT if you go and get in a hassle with them I think you can be sure that you've cut yourself out of any hope to get a permit or contract with them.
Draw up a business proposal to take to the league meeting that offers your services. I'd bet they'll be happy to consider it if you're reasonable.
Otherwise I think they've got full power...Show more →
Steve, Thanks for the kind words on my work. But I cover my children's games and that's about all I have time for right now.
I was at a tournament this past weekend with my daughter here in NJ. There was no official photographer, people would see me with the 400 f2.8 and just assume I was the official photographer. They were disappointed I wouldn't be covering their kids game
Marc
If there's no league photographer there ought to be one, and why not you?
I looked at your 'sports' website and it's clear to me that you're very capable of doing a bang-up job for that league. BUT if you go and get in a hassle with them I think you can be sure that you've cut yourself out of any hope to get a permit or contract with them.
Draw up a business proposal to take to the league meeting that offers your services. I'd bet they'll be happy to consider it if you're reasonable.
Otherwise I think they've got full power...Show more →
Steve, Thanks for the kind words on my work. But I cover my children's games and that's about all I have time for right now.
I was at a tournament this past weekend with my daughter here in NJ. There was no official photographer, people would see me with the 400 f2.8 and just assume I was the official photographer. They were disappointed I wouldn't be covering their kids game
Marc
Jun 14, 2010 at 11:43 AM
p.2 #3NJ photography Laws
A quick way of getting some of the answers you want is to send a letter to the league with a request for contact information for their counsel as well as their authority to "fine" members of the public and limitation of fair use. Their response will give you a place to start the legal disection of their policies.
Jun 15, 2010 at 06:18 PM
p.2 #4NJ photography Laws
Vertigo2020 wrote:
A quick way of getting some of the answers you want is to send a letter to the league with a request for contact information for their counsel as well as their authority to "fine" members of the public and limitation of fair use. Their response will give you a place to start the legal disection of their policies.
Good suggestion.
A quick way of getting some of the answers you want is to send a letter to the league with a request for contact information for their counsel as well as their authority to "fine" members of the public and limitation of fair use. Their response will give you a place to start the legal disection of their policies.
Good suggestion.
Jun 15, 2010 at 06:57 PM
p.2 #5NJ photography Laws
mbaumser wrote:
Good suggestion.
No, not a good suggestion. We've established you are not an attorney--what are you going to dissect? You already have a bad relationship with these folks: What do you gain by coming back at them this way? You are going to put yourself in the position of being viewed as a bad penny or a gnat.
As for the question of fair use- how does your taking pictures and trying to sell them relate to the doctrine of fair use?
The last time I checked the doctrine of fair use related to limited use of copyrighted materials without permission of the copyright holder for commentary, news reporting, research, and criticism...How does what you are trying to do relate to fair use?
Get the draws un-bunched, and seek proper counsel. The consult won't cost you anywhere near what your 400 2.8 did!
Vertigo2020 wrote
A quick way of getting some of the answers you want is to send a letter to the league with a request for contact information for their counsel as well as their authority to "fine" members of the public and limitation of fair use. Their response will give you a place to start the legal disection of their policies.No, not a good suggestion. We've established you are not an attorney--what are you going to dissect? You already have a bad relationship with these folks: What do you gain by coming back at them this way? You are going to put yourself in the position of being viewed as a bad penny or a gnat.
As for the question of fair use- how does your taking pictures and trying to sell them relate to the doctrine of fair use?
The last time I checked the doctrine of fair use related to limited use of copyrighted materials without permission of the copyright holder for commentary, news reporting, research, and criticism...How does what you are trying to do relate to fair use?
Get the draws un-bunched, and seek proper counsel. The consult won't cost you anywhere near what your 400 2.8 did!
Jun 15, 2010 at 07:32 PM
p.2 #6NJ photography Laws
James10013 wrote:
Good suggestion.No, not a good suggestion. We've established you are not an attorney--what are you going to dissect? You already have a bad relationship with these folks: What do you gain by coming back at them this way? You are going to put yourself in the position of being viewed as a bad penny or a gnat.
As for the question of fair use- how does your taking pictures and trying to sell them relate to the doctrine of fair use?
The last time I checked the doctrine of fair use related to limited use of copyrighted materials without permission of...Show more →
James,
yes "fair use" is not an issue here and I should have said that in my previous response. But, asking for their lawyers contact information and under what authority they claim the rights posted on their web site, I think is a fair first step.
If I need to seek council it won't hurt any for me to have that information in hand. And maybe their lawyer gives me a specific statute that I can check at the library and see, they really do have the right.
Or, they are bluffing and asking questions calls their bluff.
The one reality is that right now all they are doing is saber-rattling. I have no reason to seek legal council based on someone's threat of a fine. An actual bill for a fine or other harassment...yeah, no worries, I will have a lawyer looking at it even if the lawyer cost more than the fine.
But so far, I've gotten an e-mail (that was supposed to have gone out globally and not just to me), there is an update on the website that is identical to the e-mail, and I personally heard the president of the club say "he'll be getting a lawyer's letter next year" (but it was not said directly too me so maybe he was referring to another parents that was taking pictures that he knew would be posting on websites and selling...could be)
While I was never a Boy Scout I still want to "be prepared" in case this ever gets past the talk and bluster phase. Knowing the name of their lawyer, in my mind, sound like I'm being prepared nothing more.
Marc
mbaumser wrote
Vertigo2020 wrote
A quick way of getting some of the answers you want is to send a letter to the league with a request for contact information for their counsel as well as their authority to "fine" members of the public and limitation of fair use. Their response will give you a place to start the legal disection of their policies.As for the question of fair use- how does your taking pictures and trying to sell them relate to the doctrine of fair use?
The last time I checked the doctrine of fair use related to limited use of copyrighted materials without permission of...Show more →
James,
yes "fair use" is not an issue here and I should have said that in my previous response. But, asking for their lawyers contact information and under what authority they claim the rights posted on their web site, I think is a fair first step.
If I need to seek council it won't hurt any for me to have that information in hand. And maybe their lawyer gives me a specific statute that I can check at the library and see, they really do have the right.
Or, they are bluffing and asking questions calls their bluff.
The one reality is that right now all they are doing is saber-rattling. I have no reason to seek legal council based on someone's threat of a fine. An actual bill for a fine or other harassment...yeah, no worries, I will have a lawyer looking at it even if the lawyer cost more than the fine.
But so far, I've gotten an e-mail (that was supposed to have gone out globally and not just to me), there is an update on the website that is identical to the e-mail, and I personally heard the president of the club say "he'll be getting a lawyer's letter next year" (but it was not said directly too me so maybe he was referring to another parents that was taking pictures that he knew would be posting on websites and selling...could be)
While I was never a Boy Scout I still want to "be prepared" in case this ever gets past the talk and bluster phase. Knowing the name of their lawyer, in my mind, sound like I'm being prepared nothing more.
Marc
Jun 15, 2010 at 08:43 PM
p.2 #7NJ photography Laws
James10013 wrote:
Good suggestion.No, not a good suggestion. We've established you are not an attorney--what are you going to dissect? You already have a bad relationship with these folks: What do you gain by coming back at them this way? You are going to put yourself in the position of being viewed as a bad penny or a gnat.
As for the question of fair use- how does your taking pictures and trying to sell them relate to the doctrine of fair use?
The last time I checked the doctrine of fair use related to limited use of copyrighted materials without permission of...Show more →
Interesting analysis. The foundation of an adversarial dispute has already been established. Marc has two choices, pick a fight or walk away. Probing the league's legal position will set the parameters upon which he can decide to challange the policy or not. Acertaining the basis for the limitations placed on him provides the fodder for litigation.
If it were me, I'd write the letter and take the result to counsel for appropriate advise as to my legal options. I've never been accused of being a gnat though, more like a swarm of hornets!
mbaumser wrote
Vertigo2020 wrote
A quick way of getting some of the answers you want is to send a letter to the league with a request for contact information for their counsel as well as their authority to "fine" members of the public and limitation of fair use. Their response will give you a place to start the legal disection of their policies.As for the question of fair use- how does your taking pictures and trying to sell them relate to the doctrine of fair use?
The last time I checked the doctrine of fair use related to limited use of copyrighted materials without permission of...Show more →
Interesting analysis. The foundation of an adversarial dispute has already been established. Marc has two choices, pick a fight or walk away. Probing the league's legal position will set the parameters upon which he can decide to challange the policy or not. Acertaining the basis for the limitations placed on him provides the fodder for litigation.
If it were me, I'd write the letter and take the result to counsel for appropriate advise as to my legal options. I've never been accused of being a gnat though, more like a swarm of hornets!
Jun 15, 2010 at 08:53 PM
p.2 #8NJ photography Laws
Vertigo2020 wrote:
I've never been accused of being a gnat though, more like a swarm of hornets!
I'm a New Yorker (living in exile) these local Jersey boys don't scare me.
I've never been accused of being a gnat though, more like a swarm of hornets!
I'm a New Yorker (living in exile) these local Jersey boys don't scare me.
Jun 15, 2010 at 09:23 PM
p.2 #9NJ photography Laws
Vertigo2020 wrote:
Good suggestion.No, not a good suggestion. We've established you are not an attorney--what are you going to dissect? You already have a bad relationship with these folks: What do you gain by coming back at them this way? You are going to put yourself in the position of being viewed as a bad penny or a gnat.
As for the question of fair use- how does your taking pictures and trying to sell them relate to the doctrine of fair use?
The last time I checked the doctrine of fair use related to limited use of copyrighted materials without permission of the copyright holder for commentary, news reporting, research, and criticism...How does what you are trying to do relate to fair use?
Get the draws un-bunched, and seek proper counsel. The consult won't cost you anywhere near what your 400 2.8 did!Interesting analysis. The foundation of an adversarial dispute has already been established. Marc has two choices, pick a fight or walk away. Probing the league's legal position will set the parameters upon which he can decide to challange the policy or not. Acertaining the basis for the limitations placed on him provides the fodder for litigation.
If it were me, I'd write the letter and take the result to counsel for appropriate advise as to my legal options. I've never been accused of being a gnat though, more like a swarm of hornets!
I guess we just see things differently: First his alternatives are not to "pick a fight" or to "walk away." He has been given several constructive alternatives to see if there is a way to work things out. If he is going to end up going to counsel anyway, which at this point he really should, his counsel will be versed in the law and should not need a letter from the league to advise his client as to what his rights are or to suggest a course of action. What you are suggesting is tantamount to continuing to fuel flames and for what end?
The other thing that seems to be taking a back seat with respect to some of the discussion is that Marc has a child who plays in the league. I would hope that some of the divisiveness over this issue does not trickle down to the players, but in any event, and I have said this before, there is a balancing act here between the parents desires and the child's desire and relationships that should be factored into the course of action.
James10013 wrote
mbaumser wrote
Vertigo2020 wrote
A quick way of getting some of the answers you want is to send a letter to the league with a request for contact information for their counsel as well as their authority to "fine" members of the public and limitation of fair use. Their response will give you a place to start the legal disection of their policies.As for the question of fair use- how does your taking pictures and trying to sell them relate to the doctrine of fair use?
The last time I checked the doctrine of fair use related to limited use of copyrighted materials without permission of the copyright holder for commentary, news reporting, research, and criticism...How does what you are trying to do relate to fair use?
Get the draws un-bunched, and seek proper counsel. The consult won't cost you anywhere near what your 400 2.8 did!
If it were me, I'd write the letter and take the result to counsel for appropriate advise as to my legal options. I've never been accused of being a gnat though, more like a swarm of hornets!
I guess we just see things differently: First his alternatives are not to "pick a fight" or to "walk away." He has been given several constructive alternatives to see if there is a way to work things out. If he is going to end up going to counsel anyway, which at this point he really should, his counsel will be versed in the law and should not need a letter from the league to advise his client as to what his rights are or to suggest a course of action. What you are suggesting is tantamount to continuing to fuel flames and for what end?
The other thing that seems to be taking a back seat with respect to some of the discussion is that Marc has a child who plays in the league. I would hope that some of the divisiveness over this issue does not trickle down to the players, but in any event, and I have said this before, there is a balancing act here between the parents desires and the child's desire and relationships that should be factored into the course of action.
Jun 16, 2010 at 07:08 AM
p.2 #10NJ photography Laws
His counsel may be well educated in local law, but the facts must be determined for relief from a tort can be established. If the league has some exclusive contract over the sole use of the likenesses of the players, that must factor into the application of law. Without knowing the full scope of the issues Marc's counsel is handicapped. Taking a look at the other guy's cards is fair play. Marc can do this preliminary step himself and save the $250 an hour for his attorney to do the same demand letter. My recommendation is really quite simple, rhetorically speaking; get all your ducks in a row, determine your rights and remedies, if you have a claim, then go to the mattresses.
Jun 16, 2010 at 08:11 AM
p.2 #11NJ photography Laws
Vertigo2020 wrote:
His counsel may be well educated in local law, but the facts must be determined for relief from a tort can be established. If the league has some exclusive contract over the sole use of the likenesses of the players, that must factor into the application of law. Without knowing the full scope of the issues Marc's counsel is handicapped. Taking a look at the other guy's cards is fair play. Marc can do this preliminary step himself and save the $250 an hour for his attorney to do the same demand letter. My recommendation is really quite simple, rhetorically...Show more →
I'm not trying to be contentious, but part of the issue he has been having already comes from holding a "web-search JD." If you tally up the amount of time he has spent researching, citing and posted about this issue and with no resolution not to mention seething over it, he has spent far beyond the $250 for an hour's worth of legal consultation in his own time, which indeed has value. You are also assuming that the the attorney is going to send a letter requesting that information: He/she may or may not. Marc's issues are complex, which is something we learned as his posts unfolded: Even the guide which he lists as an excellent source of information calls into question the appropriateness and legal standing of a portion of his activities. At this point, he really needs to refrain from entering into another round of "testosterone wars." If he is going to end up going to an attorney, he needs to take the advise that attorney and let the attorney work on his behalf, and stop trying to be a paralegal.
His counsel may be well educated in local law, but the facts must be determined for relief from a tort can be established. If the league has some exclusive contract over the sole use of the likenesses of the players, that must factor into the application of law. Without knowing the full scope of the issues Marc's counsel is handicapped. Taking a look at the other guy's cards is fair play. Marc can do this preliminary step himself and save the $250 an hour for his attorney to do the same demand letter. My recommendation is really quite simple, rhetorically...Show more →
I'm not trying to be contentious, but part of the issue he has been having already comes from holding a "web-search JD." If you tally up the amount of time he has spent researching, citing and posted about this issue and with no resolution not to mention seething over it, he has spent far beyond the $250 for an hour's worth of legal consultation in his own time, which indeed has value. You are also assuming that the the attorney is going to send a letter requesting that information: He/she may or may not. Marc's issues are complex, which is something we learned as his posts unfolded: Even the guide which he lists as an excellent source of information calls into question the appropriateness and legal standing of a portion of his activities. At this point, he really needs to refrain from entering into another round of "testosterone wars." If he is going to end up going to an attorney, he needs to take the advise that attorney and let the attorney work on his behalf, and stop trying to be a paralegal.
Jun 16, 2010 at 09:06 AM
p.2 #12NJ photography Laws
I don't necessarily disagree with your treatise. The end result will likely be the same. My point is merely for Marc to gather the evidence of the case and bring the facts to his counsel. Or, he can do as you suggest and pay someone else to do it for him. Marc's tone throughout this thread has been one of confrontation; why stop now. My slogan has always been, if you're gonna be a bear...be a grizzly.
Jun 16, 2010 at 09:50 AM
p.2 #13NJ photography Laws
Marc's still at the point he has been for a while. At this point, nothing has happened. Out here in California, the league play typically starts in early September. He can get the league's position now, by letter, or he can wait (and stew) until the season starts and he and/or the league do something that distracts from the season's enjoyment and adds to the typical sideline drama and politics amongst the parents.
Jun 16, 2010 at 12:35 PM
p.2 #14NJ photography Laws
Craig Gillette wrote:
Marc's still at the point he has been for a while. At this point, nothing has happened. Out here in California, the league play typically starts in early September. He can get the league's position now, by letter, or he can wait (and stew) until the season starts and he and/or the league do something that distracts from the season's enjoyment and adds to the typical sideline drama and politics amongst the parents.
Succinctly put, Craig. And, the exact reason I avoided public team sports with my children.
Marc's still at the point he has been for a while. At this point, nothing has happened. Out here in California, the league play typically starts in early September. He can get the league's position now, by letter, or he can wait (and stew) until the season starts and he and/or the league do something that distracts from the season's enjoyment and adds to the typical sideline drama and politics amongst the parents.
Succinctly put, Craig. And, the exact reason I avoided public team sports with my children.
Jun 16, 2010 at 01:26 PM
p.2 #15NJ photography Laws
Let me clarify a few points.
Craig is correct: nothing has happened as of this point. As I've said, I've gotten an e-mail that I'm told was sent to all parents not just me. And the e-mail threatened fine and legal action. I pointed to the league web site just as corroborating evidence so you didn't think I was exaggerating the e-mail.
The time I've invested may be worth $250 or more. But much of the knowledge I've gained is easily worth that so it's kind of a wash in that regard. I hope I'm not wasting all of your time with this thread but I'm getting good alternative opinions even if we don't have a consensus.
Also, this is my nature. I read and sought opinions before buying camera gear. When I've had medical issues I've consulted the web as well as a doctor to be sure I fully understood what was going on and I knew the right questions to ask. If I'm forced to rely on an expert in an emergency situation, I will. But when I have the time to research and understand as much as I can before it is needed I will take the time and do the research. When I need a lawyer I will get one.
My tone my be one of confrontation but I'm equally prone to finding a non confrontational solution. I'd like to have my ducks in a row but it may comedown to the league and I working something out before it gets to that. The point of this thread was to find more information if it gets confrontational and get alternative opinions. A non confrontational solution doesn't require a thread: "I want to enter a business relationship with the local soccer league" isn't going to make an interesting thread. (sort of like the "what lens should I buy" threads)
As for my son, he's deciding if he wants to continue soccer so it all may be moot anyway come the fall. My daughter's league, I have no such issues. Her coach is the president of that league and he loves my images so I'm cool there.
Craig is correct: nothing has happened as of this point. As I've said, I've gotten an e-mail that I'm told was sent to all parents not just me. And the e-mail threatened fine and legal action. I pointed to the league web site just as corroborating evidence so you didn't think I was exaggerating the e-mail.
The time I've invested may be worth $250 or more. But much of the knowledge I've gained is easily worth that so it's kind of a wash in that regard. I hope I'm not wasting all of your time with this thread but I'm getting good alternative opinions even if we don't have a consensus.
Also, this is my nature. I read and sought opinions before buying camera gear. When I've had medical issues I've consulted the web as well as a doctor to be sure I fully understood what was going on and I knew the right questions to ask. If I'm forced to rely on an expert in an emergency situation, I will. But when I have the time to research and understand as much as I can before it is needed I will take the time and do the research. When I need a lawyer I will get one.
My tone my be one of confrontation but I'm equally prone to finding a non confrontational solution. I'd like to have my ducks in a row but it may comedown to the league and I working something out before it gets to that. The point of this thread was to find more information if it gets confrontational and get alternative opinions. A non confrontational solution doesn't require a thread: "I want to enter a business relationship with the local soccer league" isn't going to make an interesting thread. (sort of like the "what lens should I buy" threads)
As for my son, he's deciding if he wants to continue soccer so it all may be moot anyway come the fall. My daughter's league, I have no such issues. Her coach is the president of that league and he loves my images so I'm cool there.
Jun 16, 2010 at 03:41 PM
p.2 #16NJ photography Laws
Just to clarify Marc, I wasn't pointing fingers. Hell, confrontation is my middle name.
Jun 17, 2010 at 05:04 PM
p.2 #17NJ photography Laws
I'm fascinated by the idea that I could move to NJ, get a business license, obtain a permit from the city to use public space as my own, create my own rules for the area, then whoever happens to show up and not follow my rules I can fine them ??
I'm not a lawyer so I'm not exactly sure what the flaw is in that plan, but I'm certain that if I attempted to do this it would be me in hot water with the law and facing fines.
I'm also curious who is going to issue you the fine? Is the referee going to write you a ticket?
Who's going to collect the fine and what happens if you don't pay it?
Why don't you just call the city attorneys office and ask them? I'm sure they would be as fascinated as I am at the idea of someone other than a government agency "fining" people.
Maybe someone at the meeting was just taking really bad notes and their plan is to have you charged with trespass and that carries a $1000 fine. I have no idea if that would be legal either but it at least has the air of plausibility.
William.
I'm not a lawyer so I'm not exactly sure what the flaw is in that plan, but I'm certain that if I attempted to do this it would be me in hot water with the law and facing fines.
I'm also curious who is going to issue you the fine? Is the referee going to write you a ticket?
Who's going to collect the fine and what happens if you don't pay it?
Why don't you just call the city attorneys office and ask them? I'm sure they would be as fascinated as I am at the idea of someone other than a government agency "fining" people.
Maybe someone at the meeting was just taking really bad notes and their plan is to have you charged with trespass and that carries a $1000 fine. I have no idea if that would be legal either but it at least has the air of plausibility.
William.
Jun 17, 2010 at 05:56 PM
p.2 #18NJ photography Laws
Vertigo2020 wrote:
Just to clarify Marc, I wasn't pointing fingers. Hell, confrontation is my middle name.
And I didn't read it as you pointing fingers.
Just to clarify Marc, I wasn't pointing fingers. Hell, confrontation is my middle name.
And I didn't read it as you pointing fingers.
Jun 17, 2010 at 10:03 PM
p.2 #19NJ photography Laws
Quick update: I sent an email last asking for contact information for the leagues legal council as I have questions on the photography policy.
I haven't heard back from the league.
I haven't heard back from the league.
Jul 01, 2010 at 07:07 AM