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Archive 20107D: The bottom line

  
 
PetKal
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p.1 #17D: The bottom line
Please help me decide if I should get 7D now or I should wait until they get down to $1,000 or so.

Unfortunately I can not make head nor tail out of different feedbacks posted here and elsewhere.....there are conflicting and discrepant views and opinions.
So I'd like to get a brief bottom line from experienced 7D users.

You see, I don't need another fancy camera with tepid performance, however, I could always use a reasonably priced tool which will help me get my images, such as they are, in the following ways:

(1) Detail recorded and cropping depth. I think that one is pretty much a a gimme. I suspect 7D might be even better than my 1DsMkII in that regard.

(2) Low ISO noise. When I view an image on my 19" screen, and crop a bit, say 30%, I'd like to see no objectionable noise at ISO 100, 200 and 400.
High image croppability does little for me if I end up having to do NR on low ISO captures.

(3) Peripheral AF sensor sensitivity and accuracy. Is it better than 40/50D ?

(4) Servo AF. Is it more like 40/50D or closer to 1DMkII(N) ? Or perhaps better than any of those ? (Honestly, I haven't used a Canon camera yet that would floor me with its Servo AF performance. That's where I need help more than anywhere else.)

(5) Low light FPS. What's the real scoop here ? If FPS is exposure sensitive, where does it kick back to a lower FPS and what would that FPS be ?

There you have it, the above issues are the ones I really care about.
Thanx for your input.
Apr 29, 2010 at 07:11 PM
gheller
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p.1 #27D: The bottom line
I can only comment on (5)

there is no disputing that the camera will *not* fire at 8FPS in low light (I couldn't even get mine to do it at the beach in bright sun!)

Google "7D won't do 8 FPS" and you will get more info on this...

greg
Apr 29, 2010 at 07:15 PM
Breitling65
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p.1 #37D: The bottom line
Get mk IV
Apr 29, 2010 at 07:16 PM
PetKal
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p.1 #47D: The bottom line
Breitling65 wrote:
Get mk IV


I never buy experimental technology gears. Besides, the camera is still overpriced by about $2,500 in my books.
Apr 29, 2010 at 07:26 PM
bobbytan
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p.1 #57D: The bottom line
Hey Peter, I bought a 7D in December and sold it in March. If you need the extra reach and good AF tracking ability w/o having to spend an arm and a leg, this body is great and it will do the job admirably. But don't expect super-clean files with low noise like the 5D/5DII.

I sold it because (a) I'm not doing and don't expecting to be doing much bird photography for awhile, (b) I don't want to keep the 7D just for the sake of it as these DSLRs depreciate rather quickly, and (c) the noise bothers me quite a lot. Shoot in low light and/or under-expose your images and you are screwed. I was having to apply NR to approx 75% of the images I shot. With my 5DII I rarely have to apply any NR.

I am hoping between now and December when I expect to make my 2nd trip to Bosque del Apache that we may see a 3D or 5D3. Probably wishful thinking. But I reckon that if there is no new body, I can always buy a used 7D for my December trip .... for much less than what I sold my 7D for in March.
Apr 29, 2010 at 07:41 PM
jkermani
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p.1 #67D: The bottom line
I see that there are folks (Conrad Tan, for one) that can really make the 7D sing. In my experience the files were not sharp, the noise was objectionable and overall could not hold a candle to the 1DIII. I traded it for a MKIII and it was a satisfactory trade for both parties because he wanted it for weddings. I will not part with the 1DIII again, but I did get a 50D for birds and am happy.

Jeanette
Apr 29, 2010 at 07:51 PM
Liquidstone
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p.1 #77D: The bottom line
1. Of all the EOS DSLRs I've owned and used (300D, 350D, 20D, 40D, 1D2 and 5D2), the 7D records the most detail per unit area of sensor. Of course, one needs to use good glass to generate such detail. Nothing exotic is needed though, a good copy of a 100-400 at 400 mm wide open still outresolves the 7D.

2. Noise of my 7D at ISO 200-800 is a bit worse than my 40D when compared pixel to pixel. When compared frame to frame (by resizing one file to match the other), my 7D's noise is equal or better than the 40D at the said ISOs. At ISOs higher than 800, up to ISO 6400, the 7D files exhibit very little or no banding and hence look better to me than the 40D's. My 5D2 is still better noisewise at ISO 800-3200 than my 7D, but the latter interestingly has less banding at ISO 6400 than the 5D2.

3. The off-center points of my 7D are much snappier and more accurate than my 40D's.

4. I'd rate my 7D's AI servo (center point) as at least matching that of my previous BIF workhorse, a 1D2, and significantly better than my 40D.

5. Fps slows down in very low light, and I haven't found yet a remedy for this when shooting in M mode. That said, the level of lighting when slower fps kicks in is so low that at BIFs, I'll hit the larger brick wall of impossibly slow shutter speeds much earlier before I start to worry about slowed fps.


PetKal wrote:
Please help me decide if I should get 7D now or I should wait until they get down to $1,000 or so.

Unfortunately I can not make head nor tail out of different feedbacks posted here and elsewhere.....there are conflicting and discrepant views and opinions.
So I'd like to get a brief bottom line from experienced 7D users.

You see, I don't need another fancy camera with tepid performance, however, I could always use a reasonably priced tool which will help me get my images, such as they are, in the following ways:

(1) Detail recorded and cropping depth. I think that one
...Show more →
Apr 29, 2010 at 07:51 PM
ChrisDar
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p.1 #87D: The bottom line
I had a Mark IV and returned it keeping my perfectly functioning Mark III.

Demo'd a 7D from CPS and really liked it. It had many more features than the Mark IV does. So many so it's almost daunting, many of which I don't understand why they were incorporated in the Mark IV.. especially the dedicated Live View and Video button.

I purchased a 7D after trying it from CPS and am enjoying getting used to it. Love the fact that I can shoot video using every lens I own and saved over $3,300.00 in doing so. I've watched several video tests after a Google search comparing the 5DII, 7D and Mark IV as well as the Nikon D300 and you couldn't see any difference except for the different crop factors. The quality of the video was almost identical to the human eye (on the internet)

As for your #1 question.. Here's a shot using Live View at 2240mm (500 + 1.4 + 2.0 stacked) from about 150-200 yards distance.



Here's a video from the same day at the same 2240mm (manual focus because of stacked converters)

Baby Owl Video-4/27/2010

An amazing thing to me was sitting almost 200 yards away watching a fly crawl (at 10X zoom on the LCD screen) on the tree beside the baby owl almost as clear as if it was right next to me.

Edited on Apr 29, 2010 at 08:24 PM · View previous versions
Apr 29, 2010 at 07:56 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.1 #97D: The bottom line
PetKal wrote:
Please help me decide if I should get 7D now or I should wait until they get down to $1,000 or so.

Unfortunately I can not make head nor tail out of different feedbacks posted here and elsewhere.....there are conflicting and discrepant views and opinions.
So I'd like to get a brief bottom line from experienced 7D users.

You see, I don't need another fancy camera with tepid performance, however, I could always use a reasonably priced tool which will help me get my images, such as they are, in the following ways:

(1) Detail recorded and cropping depth. I think that one
...Show more →

It's excellent. Even a 60% crop leaves a lot of detail


(2) Low ISO noise. When I view an image on my 19" screen, and crop a bit, say 30%, I'd like to see no objectionable noise at ISO 100, 200 and 400.
High image croppability does little for me if I end up having to do NR on low ISO captures.


IMO it's great up to ISO 800. You will see some noise ISO 800 but it's nice tight grain, and only in darker tones or pale clear blue skies. Use C1 or LR3.
For ISO 100-400 noise is not an issue if you ETTR. Noise above ISO 800 is far better than 40D.


(3) Peripheral AF sensor sensitivity and accuracy. Is it better than 40/50D ?


It seems fine in one shot, not sure about AI servo.


(4) Servo AF. Is it more like 40/50D or closer to 1DMkII(N) ? Or perhaps better than any of those ? (Honestly, I haven't used a Canon camera yet that would floor me with its Servo AF performance. That's where I need help more than anywhere else.)


Overall, much better than 40D and close to the 1D II. It does better with smaller erratic fast moving subjects than 40D by a long way IMO. Great in low light. The 7D has 1 series customisability of the AF and needs a fair bit of experimenting IMO. Incredibly versatile and easy to change on the fly.


(5) Low light FPS. What's the real scoop here ? If FPS is exposure sensitive, where does it kick back to a lower FPS and what would that FPS be ?


Don't do low light action work, so can't answer this.
Apr 29, 2010 at 08:04 PM
tanglefoot47
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p.1 #107D: The bottom line
Love mine great for sports and birding imo and I am sure you can make it sing
Apr 29, 2010 at 08:14 PM
PetKal
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p.1 #117D: The bottom line
Thank you folks, appreciate your quality inputs so far.
Apr 29, 2010 at 08:18 PM
RobDickinson
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p.1 #127D: The bottom line
(1) Detail recorded and cropping depth. I think that one is pretty much a a gimme. I suspect 7D might be even better than my 1DsMkII in that regard.

Plenty of pixels to crop into if the detail is there, but that exagerates any movement/misfocus etc so not always easy to get great 100% views for large crops. Is possible tho.

(2) Low ISO noise. When I view an image on my 19" screen, and crop a bit, say 30%, I'd like to see no objectionable noise at ISO 100, 200 and 400.
High image croppability does little for me if I end up having to do NR on low ISO captures.


7d has noise even at ISO 100, it doesnt detract though and is easy to deal with, best to be carefull on exposyre, expose to the right etc.

(3) Peripheral AF sensor sensitivity and accuracy. Is it better than 40/50D ?

Find all the AF points are accurate and fast, in low light the outer ones struggle more but are still fine.

(4) Servo AF. Is it more like 40/50D or closer to 1DMkII(N) ? Or perhaps better than any of those ? (Honestly, I haven't used a Canon camera yet that would floor me with its Servo AF performance. That's where I need help more than anywhere else.)

Havnt used a 1DIIn much but servo af is fast and accurate IMO (airplanes, surfing, football etc for me)

(5) Low light FPS. What's the real scoop here ? If FPS is exposure sensitive, where does it kick back to a lower FPS and what would that FPS be ?

Havnt experienced this but theres a definate cuttoff by the sounds of it. I think this will be fixed ultimatly.
Apr 29, 2010 at 08:32 PM
tanglefoot47
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p.1 #137D: The bottom line
As for sports last winter I was shooting my grandson/s wrestling matches and the 7D was god sent. I would have never been able to shoot these with my 40 or 50D. I was shocked that I could crank up the ISO to 4000 to 5000 and get some great shots with a 2.8 lens
Apr 29, 2010 at 08:35 PM
Grantland
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p.1 #147D: The bottom line
bobbytan wrote:
(c) the noise bothers me quite a lot. Shoot in low light and/or under-expose your images and you are screwed. I was having to apply NR to approx 75% of the images I shot.


same here.

no doubt about it, in my reality the 1d4 is over priced. however, IMHO you have waited a long time for a nice new body so give yourself an early birthday present and the 1d4 or a 1ds3.

we would love to see what a 1d4 could do in the hands of a master.

Apr 29, 2010 at 09:44 PM
foghorn
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p.1 #157D: The bottom line
I've had mine for 6 days, so add this to your formula as a half count.

(1) Detail recorded and cropping depth. I think that one is pretty much a a gimme. I suspect 7D might be even better than my 1DsMkII in that regard.
I pretty much think this is a gimme too. With my 40D, I could only crop a wee bit here and there for most images. I tend to shoot indoors, 400-800 ISO was my previous range. I didn't have a lot of options for cropping indoor pics. I had a little bit more freedom for pics taken outside at your 100-400 ISO range. I don't know how much further I could go with the 7D, but it seems like a ton of breathing room.

(2) Low ISO noise. When I view an image on my 19" screen, and crop a bit, say 30%, I'd like to see no objectionable noise at ISO 100, 200 and 400.
High image croppability does little for me if I end up having to do NR on low ISO captures.

After looking at a few properly exposed low ISO images, I am satisfied. I don't have a lot of this. I pretty much have been shooting at higher ISO's since I bought it.

(3) Peripheral AF sensor sensitivity and accuracy. Is it better than 40/50D ? Yes, by far. I can't fool the non center point AF sensors more than the center one yet. I actually love the AF point expansion for a little bit of help. It's a function that is far from gimmicky and really practical.

(4) Servo AF. Is it more like 40/50D or closer to 1DMkII(N) ? Or perhaps better than any of those ? (Honestly, I haven't used a Canon camera yet that would floor me with its Servo AF performance. That's where I need help more than anywhere else.)
It doesn't seem to be 1D III fast at first lock on servo (well I guess it doesn't lock), but first acquisition speed isn't quite there. Almost, but not quite. However, it doesn't "miss". In fact, it's almost frightening. Let me give a brief example. While taking a look at some ducks, I saw a beautiful small bird dart across the landscape. I'm not the best BIF shooter, but I quickly brought up my 7D to aim, and I panned with the bird hoping to get a "lock". It got it just like that. And mind you, I was using "zone af" which can be slower and less accurate then single point or single point expanded. I had my jaw drop in awe. Alas, the shutter was only at 1/500th. The little scooter's wings needed much more than that.

(5) Low light FPS. What's the real scoop here ? If FPS is exposure sensitive, where does it kick back to a lower FPS and what would that FPS be ?
Sorry I can't answer item 5. I have not shot this beauty in low light with the drive in H.

I hope this helps more than hinders. I always enjoy your posts, petkal.

--edit--clarification.
On item #2. I have a 24" display at 1920x1200. 30% doesn't seem threatening.
Apr 29, 2010 at 10:01 PM
PetKal
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p.1 #167D: The bottom line
Grantland wrote:
bobbytan wrote(c) the noise bothers me quite a lot. Shoot in low light and/or under-expose your images and you are screwed. I was having to apply NR to approx 75% of the images I shot.
same here.

no doubt about it, in my reality the 1d4 is over priced. however, IMHO you have waited a long time for a nice new body so give yourself an early birthday present and the 1d4 or a 1ds3.

we would love to see what a 1d4 could do in the hands of a master.



Thank you, you are always very kind, Grant, it's just that I really like the IQ I get from my 1DMkIIN (and 1dsMkII as well.). Straight out of camera JPGs turn out OK to my eyes even on difficult scenes (yes, the water was that green ), so I am not too quick to upgrade, or update, if you will.

Edited on May 03, 2010 at 09:58 AM · View previous versions
Apr 29, 2010 at 10:09 PM
saaketham
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p.1 #177D: The bottom line
I love the 7D .. except for the low-ISO noise, which, whatever anyone says .. is pretty obvious. I don't want to start the same argument again, but ... I love the 7D for its impressive detail, AF, and the way it shines with a well-resolving lens.
Apr 29, 2010 at 10:17 PM
LarH88
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p.1 #187D: The bottom line
With regards to #5, I found that it speeds up quite a bit if you disable high iso noise reduction. Maybe not 8fps, but much better than if not disabled
Apr 29, 2010 at 10:17 PM
artsupreme
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p.1 #207D: The bottom line
The 7D will make you happy in all 5 areas above except IQ....it's noisy at low ISOs. The AF performance is not on par with the 1D2N but pretty darn close....If you lived closer I would ship you mine so you could try it out to see for yourself. If your concern is IQ SOOC you won't be pleased, it requires NR and PP to produce clean files with this camera.
Apr 29, 2010 at 10:25 PM
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