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Archive 2010When have you used both tilt and shift?
p.1 #1When have you used both tilt and shift?
I mostly tilt, I sometimes shift but I never used both together. Should I? This link suggests that it can increase DoF. This is interesting but how does it work in practice? What is your personal experience? Please post pictures, add description and technical data.
TIA.
Happy shooting,
Yakim.
TIA.
Happy shooting,
Yakim.
Apr 15, 2010 at 02:54 AM
p.1 #2When have you used both tilt and shift?
Here's a good example. This is max shift down with about 6-7 degree tilt down as well, at like f/6.3...sharp from 1 foot in front to infinity. I really liked my tilt-shift, but the times I used it were infrequent enough that I couldn't justify keeping a $1000 lens in my bag for use a few times a year. If I were a working architectural photographer rather than a hobbyist, though, I'd use a tilt-shift all the time.
http://www.jordansteele.com/forumlinks/tse_columbus_wall.jpg
And this has no shift (I hadn't modified my TS-E to have both in the same axis yet), but uses tilt for increased DOF. The foreground is like 4-6 inches in front of the lens, yet the buildings in the distance are also sharp, and again, this is at like f/5.6 or f/6.3. The tops of the reeds close are OOF because the focus wedge isn't high enough at that point, but the main line of the photo is in focus all the way. This is max tilt down.
http://www.jordansteele.com/forumlinks/tse_leaves.jpg
http://www.jordansteele.com/forumlinks/tse_columbus_wall.jpg
And this has no shift (I hadn't modified my TS-E to have both in the same axis yet), but uses tilt for increased DOF. The foreground is like 4-6 inches in front of the lens, yet the buildings in the distance are also sharp, and again, this is at like f/5.6 or f/6.3. The tops of the reeds close are OOF because the focus wedge isn't high enough at that point, but the main line of the photo is in focus all the way. This is max tilt down.
http://www.jordansteele.com/forumlinks/tse_leaves.jpg
Apr 15, 2010 at 03:58 AM
p.1 #3When have you used both tilt and shift?
So you indeed used shift+tilt to increase DoF? I wonder how it would look with shift only or tilt only in the same aperture.
Happy shooting,
Yakim.
Happy shooting,
Yakim.
Apr 15, 2010 at 06:13 AM
p.1 #4When have you used both tilt and shift?
I'm like you, I pretty much used tilt only for a long time. In fact I thought about getting a Schneider 28mm PC converted to tilt at one time. When I bought the 17mm TSE though I started seeing oportunites for shift and then found I was using both. It could be argued that I didn't need both because it's so wide, but it's made me think of other shots now.
Tilt to get the arch in focus and shift to reduce (but not eliminate) the converging columns.
http://ic2.pbase.com/g3/63/551663/2/121821194.3RcnI7lw.jpg
Tilt to get the front and back in focus and shift to make the boat "loom" over the viewer a little more (I screwed up the the mapping on this one so it looks a little over processed).
http://i.pbase.com/g3/63/551663/2/122912270.OTNkeAZb.jpg
Mike
Tilt to get the arch in focus and shift to reduce (but not eliminate) the converging columns.
http://ic2.pbase.com/g3/63/551663/2/121821194.3RcnI7lw.jpg
Tilt to get the front and back in focus and shift to make the boat "loom" over the viewer a little more (I screwed up the the mapping on this one so it looks a little over processed).
http://i.pbase.com/g3/63/551663/2/122912270.OTNkeAZb.jpg
Mike
Apr 15, 2010 at 06:15 AM
p.1 #5When have you used both tilt and shift?
Yakim
Only tilt increases DOF, assuming a camera that's level in both L–R and front–back planes. Shift selects the section of the available image circle. I can expand if you wish. cheers, KL
Edited on Apr 15, 2010 at 06:52 AM · View previous versions
Only tilt increases DOF, assuming a camera that's level in both L–R and front–back planes. Shift selects the section of the available image circle. I can expand if you wish. cheers, KL
Edited on Apr 15, 2010 at 06:52 AM · View previous versions
Apr 15, 2010 at 06:43 AM
p.1 #6When have you used both tilt and shift?
Exactly. The tilt is the only thing that gives the big DOF...the shift on my first shot just prevents the buildings at the top of the frame from splaying outward (diverging verticals in this case).
Apr 15, 2010 at 06:46 AM
p.1 #8When have you used both tilt and shift?
Yakim Peled wrote:
I mostly tilt, I sometimes shift but I never used both together. Should I? This link suggests that it can increase DoF. This is interesting but how does it work in practice? What is your personal experience? Please post pictures, add description and technical data.
TIA.
Happy shooting,
Yakim.
Yakim,
I think you're missing the reason for this. Shift or rise and fall will allow you to alter the composition while keeping the verticals, vertical. Tilt uses alters the plane of focus to allow near-far in focus with a larger aperture. I've used rise or fall with tilt and even swing on occasion in my view camera. My particular field camera doesn't have shift, but it can be done with swings front and rear.
Notice in Jman's example the top buildings are vertical, but the buildings in the bottom image are leaning out. In the first, the camera back is parallel to the buildings and the shift is moving the composition. In the second, the camera back is leaning into the composition and the buildings lean out.
Edited on Apr 15, 2010 at 07:12 AM · View previous versions
I mostly tilt, I sometimes shift but I never used both together. Should I? This link suggests that it can increase DoF. This is interesting but how does it work in practice? What is your personal experience? Please post pictures, add description and technical data.
TIA.
Happy shooting,
Yakim.
Yakim,
I think you're missing the reason for this. Shift or rise and fall will allow you to alter the composition while keeping the verticals, vertical. Tilt uses alters the plane of focus to allow near-far in focus with a larger aperture. I've used rise or fall with tilt and even swing on occasion in my view camera. My particular field camera doesn't have shift, but it can be done with swings front and rear.
Notice in Jman's example the top buildings are vertical, but the buildings in the bottom image are leaning out. In the first, the camera back is parallel to the buildings and the shift is moving the composition. In the second, the camera back is leaning into the composition and the buildings lean out.
Edited on Apr 15, 2010 at 07:12 AM · View previous versions
Apr 15, 2010 at 07:08 AM
p.1 #9When have you used both tilt and shift?
Jman13 wrote:
Exactly. The tilt is the only thing that gives the big DOF...the shift on my first shot just prevents the buildings at the top of the frame from splaying outward (diverging verticals in this case).
Indeed I wondered what shift has to do with DoF. Thanks for clarifying this.
Happy shooting,
Yakim.
Exactly. The tilt is the only thing that gives the big DOF...the shift on my first shot just prevents the buildings at the top of the frame from splaying outward (diverging verticals in this case).
Indeed I wondered what shift has to do with DoF. Thanks for clarifying this.
Happy shooting,
Yakim.
Apr 15, 2010 at 07:08 AM
p.1 #10When have you used both tilt and shift?
shift facilitates perspective control thru image circle selection
tilt facilitates expansion of DOF (scheimpflug principle) without changing aperture
like a lot of T-S lens users, i have tilt and shift aligned on mine (same axis)
this is best demonstrated by doing it and watching the effect in the VF, actually.
rockwell has a nice "mouse over" that demonstrates the effect of tilt and shift:
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/movements.htm
tilt facilitates expansion of DOF (scheimpflug principle) without changing aperture
like a lot of T-S lens users, i have tilt and shift aligned on mine (same axis)
this is best demonstrated by doing it and watching the effect in the VF, actually.
rockwell has a nice "mouse over" that demonstrates the effect of tilt and shift:
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/movements.htm
Apr 15, 2010 at 08:39 AM
p.1 #11When have you used both tilt and shift?
mcbroomf wrote:
I'm like you, I pretty much used tilt only for a long time. In fact I thought about getting a Schneider 28mm PC converted to tilt at one time. When I bought the 17mm TSE though I started seeing oportunites for shift and then found I was using both. It could be argued that I didn't need both because it's so wide, but it's made me think of other shots now.
Tilt to get the arch in focus and shift to reduce (but not eliminate) the converging columns.
http://ic2.pbase.com/g3/63/551663/2/121821194.3RcnI7lw.jpg
Tilt to get the front and back in focus and shift to make the...Show more →
Thank you for the explanations and pictures. I think I need to experiment in this a bit.
Happy shooting,
Yakim.
I'm like you, I pretty much used tilt only for a long time. In fact I thought about getting a Schneider 28mm PC converted to tilt at one time. When I bought the 17mm TSE though I started seeing oportunites for shift and then found I was using both. It could be argued that I didn't need both because it's so wide, but it's made me think of other shots now.
Tilt to get the arch in focus and shift to reduce (but not eliminate) the converging columns.
http://ic2.pbase.com/g3/63/551663/2/121821194.3RcnI7lw.jpg
Tilt to get the front and back in focus and shift to make the...Show more →
Thank you for the explanations and pictures. I think I need to experiment in this a bit.
Happy shooting,
Yakim.
Apr 15, 2010 at 01:22 PM
p.1 #12When have you used both tilt and shift?
Mike Tuomey wrote:
like a lot of T-S lens users, i have tilt and shift aligned on mine (same axis)
I don't have a TS lens. I have a TS adapter (Mirex, Mamiya M645 to EF). When I tilt the lens down/up, the shift is right/left. What does that mean about the axis?
Happy shooting,
Yakim.
like a lot of T-S lens users, i have tilt and shift aligned on mine (same axis)
I don't have a TS lens. I have a TS adapter (Mirex, Mamiya M645 to EF). When I tilt the lens down/up, the shift is right/left. What does that mean about the axis?
Happy shooting,
Yakim.
Apr 15, 2010 at 01:27 PM
p.1 #13When have you used both tilt and shift?
A little more: most people overdo tilt degree angles, which can lead to loss of DOF, the exact opposite of the traditional aim. I made up a set of tables for each of my Mamiya 645 lenses for my regular tripod heights.
So far, I see little need for rise and fall - just as well, since the Mirex has the two movements at 90 degrees to each other. I have not yet had time to test this, but this restriction will not impede down tilt plus horizontal shift - this should deliver solid panoramas with excellent DOF, provided I watch the near foreground for parallax problems, since the shift does not use the nodal point.
The guy at Outback whatever with the German name has written a way around this for shifters, incorporating a small slide of the camera in the horizontal plane, along his plate...but the example shown had a lot of the subject very close up, perhaps to show you need to make this adjustment for such shots. For big sweeping shots, I have seen plenty where this does not arise as a problem...
So far, I see little need for rise and fall - just as well, since the Mirex has the two movements at 90 degrees to each other. I have not yet had time to test this, but this restriction will not impede down tilt plus horizontal shift - this should deliver solid panoramas with excellent DOF, provided I watch the near foreground for parallax problems, since the shift does not use the nodal point.
The guy at Outback whatever with the German name has written a way around this for shifters, incorporating a small slide of the camera in the horizontal plane, along his plate...but the example shown had a lot of the subject very close up, perhaps to show you need to make this adjustment for such shots. For big sweeping shots, I have seen plenty where this does not arise as a problem...
Apr 15, 2010 at 03:32 PM
p.1 #14When have you used both tilt and shift?
Yakim Peled wrote:
I don't have a TS lens. I have a TS adapter (Mirex, Mamiya M645 to EF). When I tilt the lens down/up, the shift is right/left. What does that mean about the axis?
Happy shooting,
Yakim.
It means the axes of tilt and shift are 90 degrees opposed with your adapter.
Practically, it means if you wish to correct for converging verticals in an image using shift, you will not be able to apply tilt to maximize fore-to-background DOF vertically (in the same plane/direction as your shift movement).
Mike Tuomey wrote
like a lot of T-S lens users, i have tilt and shift aligned on mine (same axis)Happy shooting,
Yakim.
It means the axes of tilt and shift are 90 degrees opposed with your adapter.
Practically, it means if you wish to correct for converging verticals in an image using shift, you will not be able to apply tilt to maximize fore-to-background DOF vertically (in the same plane/direction as your shift movement).
Apr 15, 2010 at 03:52 PM
p.1 #15When have you used both tilt and shift?
Mike Tuomey wrote:
I don't have a TS lens. I have a TS adapter (Mirex, Mamiya M645 to EF). When I tilt the lens down/up, the shift is right/left. What does that mean about the axis?
Happy shooting,
Yakim.It means the axes of tilt and shift are 90 degrees opposed with your adapter.
Practically, it means if you wish to correct for converging verticals in an image using shift, you will not be able to apply tilt to maximize fore-to-background DOF vertically (in the same plane/direction as your shift movement).
Pity it can't be changed.
Happy shooting,
Yakim.
Yakim Peled wrote
Mike Tuomey wrote
like a lot of T-S lens users, i have tilt and shift aligned on mine (same axis)Happy shooting,
Yakim.
Practically, it means if you wish to correct for converging verticals in an image using shift, you will not be able to apply tilt to maximize fore-to-background DOF vertically (in the same plane/direction as your shift movement).
Pity it can't be changed.
Happy shooting,
Yakim.
Apr 15, 2010 at 11:52 PM
p.1 #16When have you used both tilt and shift?
I usually don't use much tilt with my TS-E 17 and use a lot more shift. At f9-11 which I often shoot it at with the 17, the DOF is usually large enough and tilt doesn't add that much to it.
With a TS-E 90 I imagine I would use tilt a lot more often and with larger tilt angles.
With a TS-E 90 I imagine I would use tilt a lot more often and with larger tilt angles.
Apr 15, 2010 at 11:53 PM
p.1 #17When have you used both tilt and shift?
philip_pj wrote:
A little more: most people overdo tilt degree angles, which can lead to loss of DOF, the exact opposite of the traditional aim.
I must admit I mostly do the exact opposite of the traditional aim. I just like shallow DoF.
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/851860/
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/872420/
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/835498
http://d-spot.co.il/forum/index.php?showtopic=218438
Happy shooting,
Yakim.
A little more: most people overdo tilt degree angles, which can lead to loss of DOF, the exact opposite of the traditional aim.
I must admit I mostly do the exact opposite of the traditional aim. I just like shallow DoF.
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/851860/
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/872420/
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/835498
http://d-spot.co.il/forum/index.php?showtopic=218438
Happy shooting,
Yakim.
Apr 16, 2010 at 12:01 AM
p.1 #18When have you used both tilt and shift?
wayne seltzer wrote:
I usually don't use much tilt with my TS-E 17 and use a lot more shift. At f9-11 which I often shoot it at with the 17, the DOF is usually large enough and tilt doesn't add that much to it.
With a TS-E 90 I imagine I would use tilt a lot more often and with larger tilt angles.
The 17 TS is my dream lens for a long time.
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/825298/
Now I know why I mostly tilt.
Happy shooting,
Yakim.
I usually don't use much tilt with my TS-E 17 and use a lot more shift. At f9-11 which I often shoot it at with the 17, the DOF is usually large enough and tilt doesn't add that much to it.
With a TS-E 90 I imagine I would use tilt a lot more often and with larger tilt angles.
The 17 TS is my dream lens for a long time.
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/825298/
Now I know why I mostly tilt.
Happy shooting,
Yakim.
Apr 16, 2010 at 12:07 AM
p.1 #19When have you used both tilt and shift?
Peter Figen wrote:
Here's a handheld example of shift up to keep the verticals and a full swing to limit depth. 24mm T/SII f/3.5. You use whatever it takes to make the image you want.
Nice example.
JJ
Here's a handheld example of shift up to keep the verticals and a full swing to limit depth. 24mm T/SII f/3.5. You use whatever it takes to make the image you want.
Nice example.
JJ
Apr 16, 2010 at 04:45 AM
p.1 #20When have you used both tilt and shift?
Peter Figen wrote:
Here's a handheld example of shift up to keep the verticals and a full swing to limit depth. 24mm T/SII f/3.5. You use whatever it takes to make the image you want.
This effect does make the building look like a minature model.
Here's a handheld example of shift up to keep the verticals and a full swing to limit depth. 24mm T/SII f/3.5. You use whatever it takes to make the image you want.
This effect does make the building look like a minature model.
Apr 16, 2010 at 05:46 AM