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Archive 2010 · Alt 85mm lenses

  
 
cogitech
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p.3 #1 · Alt 85mm lenses


Re: "the microcontrast argument", which I still say is a load of horse dung based on my experience with these lenses, here are some samples for comparison:

Both wide open. 100% crops from the corner of the frame:

http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/Rokinon/Test/corner_resolution/85_comp_corner.jpg

And a 100% crop of the CA test I did when I was making my 85mm decision:

http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/Rokinon/Test/CA/85_comp_CA.jpg

Now, if anyone sees a "microcontrast difference" in either of these shots, surely it is the Rokinon that has the advantage.

During my testing, it became obvious that there was very little difference between the lenses with respect to colour. The Rokinon is slightly warmer and slightly more saturated (which I personally define as "better"). I did not consider this to be a big factor, since two clicks in PP can make them identical.



Mar 20, 2010 at 09:25 AM
helimat
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p.3 #2 · Alt 85mm lenses


Hmmmmm.... Expensive lens + expensive and/or complicated modification + mirror issues vs. $250 plug and play, and very little difference in IQ. I know which I would pick... That being said, I have three 85's, so my advice ain't worth much.


Mar 20, 2010 at 10:55 AM
jcolwell
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p.3 #3 · Alt 85mm lenses


My advice to Allan, the OP, is simple - get the Rokinon.

I'm currently shooting with the Contax CZ Planar 85/1.4, Rokinon 85/1.4 and Leica Summicron-R 90/2. I've been comparing them in a variety of ways on my 1DsIII and 5D, with the goal of keeping "the best" one of them. Of course, some of you have already figured out that I'm keeping all of them. IMO, the Planar definitely has the best "3D" rendering, you can see the difference for some subjects, but certainly not for all subjects. The Rokinon is King of Bokeh, and the 'Cron is a wonderful combination of the above, plus I really like it's colour. The Planar often has harsh bokeh when there are bright highlights and/or distracting patterns. I really haven't found any situations where the Rokinon bokeh is harsh. The 'Cron bokeh is rarely harsh, and its bokeh renders features more compact in size than the same features in an image from the Rokinon (which is sometimes desirable, other times not).

In controlled resolution tests with the USAF 1951 chart, all of them are excellent lenses. On the 1DsIII, with max. resolution of about 78 line pairs per mm (lpmm), their center resolution wide-open starts around 63/64 lpmm. The Rokinon stays at this resolution as you stop down (I tested f/1.4, f/4 and f/8), while the Planar and 'Cron both sharpen up to 71/72 lpmm at f/4 and f/8. In the corners, the Rokinon is slightly sharper wide-open (57 vs. 50/51 lpmm). The 'Cron sharpens a bit faster at f/4, and they're all at 64/63 lpmm when you get to f/8.

It's worth noting that the 'Cron really doesn't loose anything in terms of bokeh at f/2, to the others at f/1.4 - the 85's have slightly slimmer DOF, but the 'Cron bokeh and subject 'separation' are at least as good as the 85's. I've noticed the same when comparing my Summicron-R 50/2 with a number of 50/1.4 lenses.

Now that I have these three lenses, I think of them as three different paint brushes in the tray of my optical tool box. When bokeh is actually a significant part of the image that I'm trying to take, then I'll use the Rokinon. I use the Planar for still life, landscapes and etc., especially stopped down. I use the Summicron for people, general walking around stuff, wide open shooting of colourful things, especially when I want to make a slightly 'impressionist' statement, and for travel, as it's relatively small (but not relatively light).

BTW, the lowly Mamiya M645 C 80/2.8N is as sharp as any of these lenses in the centre, and actually sharper at f/8 in the corners than all of them. The M645 has a slightly 'clinical' look, which is perfectly suitable for some subjects, but also undesirable for other subjects. Of course, the 80/2.8N can't provide the DOF control that you get from an 85/1.4 or a 'Cron, but it's an incredible capability when you stick it on a Mirex tilt-shift adapter (sorry for the diversion).

YMMV



Mar 20, 2010 at 12:13 PM
Cableaddict
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p.3 #4 · Alt 85mm lenses


cogitech wrote:
Re: "the microcontrast argument", which I still say is a load of horse dung based on my experience with these lenses, here are some samples for comparison:


And you STILL don't see it?

I'm seriously dumbfounded. Paul, this last test of yours proves beyond any doubt that the FD is more "alive" than the Rokinon. Holy cow, you really, REALLY can't see this?

Also, when scrolling down this thread to read the new posts, when I got to the pic from AlexTokyo and before I read the text, it was very obvious that hispic wasn't from a Rokinon.

I'm now convinced. And Paul, while I am EXTREMELY grateful to you for these great comparisons, I seriously feel sorry for you. I don't know what else to say.

If your clients are happy, I guess that's all that counts. I still think the Rokinon is amazing for the money, but I'm definitely not buying one.



Mar 20, 2010 at 01:02 PM
Cableaddict
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p.3 #5 · Alt 85mm lenses


jcolwell wrote:

Now that I have these three lenses, I think of them as three different paint brushes in the tray of my optical tool box.


Well put. The trick to being an artist is not just to understand the tools, but to know what your goal is. The latter is the hard part.

jcolwell wrote:
When bokeh is actually a significant part of the image that I'm trying to take, then I'll use the Rokinon.


Between the three lenses you have, I'd agree, but from what I can see on this thread (thanks mostly to Paul) the FD is more to my liking. Its bokeh is still well-shaped and smooth, but more vibrant.

jcolwell wrote:

BTW, the lowly Mamiya M645 C 80/2.8N is as sharp as any of these lenses in the centre, and actually sharper at f/8 in the corners than all of them. The M645 has a slightly 'clinical' look, which is perfectly suitable for some subjects, but also undesirable for other subjects.


I agree strongly. I have one, cherry picked from 4 samples, and it reminds me a lot of a Zeiss Planar in terms of sharpness & color. Sadly, it is fairly lacking in 3D, (far behind Zeiss) which has become a very important quality to me.



Mar 20, 2010 at 01:13 PM
ulrikft2
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p.3 #6 · Alt 85mm lenses


I think maybe it is you that see what you want to see cableaddict? If you can be specific on the samples above, and not "religious", what is it concretely that hits you?


Mar 20, 2010 at 02:17 PM
cogitech
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p.3 #7 · Alt 85mm lenses


Cableaddict wrote:
And you STILL don't see it?

I'm seriously dumbfounded. Paul, this last test of yours proves beyond any doubt that the FD is more "alive" than the Rokinon. Holy cow, you really, REALLY can't see this?

Also, when scrolling down this thread to read the new posts, when I got to the pic from AlexTokyo and before I read the text, it was very obvious that hispic wasn't from a Rokinon.

I'm now convinced. And Paul, while I am EXTREMELY grateful to you for these great comparisons, I seriously feel sorry for you. I don't know what else to say.

If your clients are
...Show more

You are welcome.

No, I don't see "it". That's why I chose the Rokinon. Do not feel sorry for me. That is a serious waste of emotion on your part. I couldn't be happier with my decision.



Mar 20, 2010 at 02:44 PM
Cableaddict
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p.3 #8 · Alt 85mm lenses


No worries, mate. I'm good!


Mar 20, 2010 at 02:46 PM
Cableaddict
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p.3 #9 · Alt 85mm lenses


ulrikft2 wrote:
I think maybe it is you that see what you want to see cableaddict? If you can be specific on the samples above, and not "religious", what is it concretely that hits you?


I believe I have been specific.



Mar 20, 2010 at 02:47 PM
ulrikft2
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p.3 #10 · Alt 85mm lenses


"more "alive"" .. ?


Mar 20, 2010 at 02:58 PM
Makten
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p.3 #11 · Alt 85mm lenses


Cableaddict wrote:
I believe I have been specific.


You really have not. Please describe what you prefer from the Canon lens regarding the examples given. I see a quite great difference, but NOT when it comes to sharpness or local contrast, but in the transition from sharp to unsharp (where the Canon wins for me).



Mar 20, 2010 at 03:19 PM
Joseph Marney
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p.3 #12 · Alt 85mm lenses


From Paul's last let of pics, I would have given the (Very) narrow win to the Rokinon, as the infocus area is marginally sharper.

I'm planning on picking one of these up for my A850 in the next couple of weeks.



Mar 20, 2010 at 03:23 PM
Cableaddict
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p.3 #13 · Alt 85mm lenses


Yes, I have been specific, but once again:

Better plasticity (3D)

More life in the bokeh, without being harsh.

Possibly truer (though less rich) colors. - and to clarify, possibly a higher degree of color resolution, which can be brought out in post, if desired.

I also agree with you about the transition to OOF, although I think that's due to the same micro-contrast elements as the 3D effect.



Mar 20, 2010 at 03:24 PM
Joseph Marney
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p.3 #14 · Alt 85mm lenses


Makten wrote:
You really have not. Please describe what you prefer from the Canon lens regarding the examples given. I see a quite great difference, but NOT when it comes to sharpness or local contrast, but in the transition from sharp to unsharp (where the Canon wins for me).


It's funny how we all observe it differently. I was looking at them thinking that the FD enters and exits the plane of focus without ever really "getting there".



Mar 20, 2010 at 03:26 PM
Makten
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p.3 #15 · Alt 85mm lenses


Cableaddict wrote:
Yes, I have been specific, but once again:

Better plasticity (3D)

More life in the bokeh, without being harsh.

Possibly truer (though less rich) colors. - and to clarify, possibly a higher degree of color resolution, which can be brought out in post, if desired.

I also agree with you about the transition to OOF, although I think that's due to the same micro-contrast elements as the 3D effect.


I hear you! I agree that the smoothest possible bokeh and highest contrast isn't necessarily what to want. But for portraits with a blurred background, you'll never even see the transition to OOF. So there are definitely times when the Rokinon/Samyang is better.

Edit: Those examples are the first ones on this forum that really have showed differencies in transition from sharp to unsharp. Very interesting!



Mar 20, 2010 at 03:30 PM
Jim Schemel
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p.3 #16 · Alt 85mm lenses


A few more samples with the Rok on 5D, both were shot in raw and processed in DPP.

#1 is @1.4 http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4022/4448977280_dbcbccbd2a_b.jpg

#2 is @f2 http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4022/4448982790_6e271e0089_b.jpg



Mar 20, 2010 at 04:37 PM
Cableaddict
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p.3 #17 · Alt 85mm lenses


Makten wrote:
I hear you! I agree that the smoothest possible bokeh and highest contrast isn't necessarily what to want. But for portraits with a blurred background, you'll never even see the transition to OOF. So there are definitely times when the Rokinon/Samyang is better.


OK, I can agree with that. It still isn't swaying me towards the Rokinon. I wish it would, as I am rather poor these days. Believe me, I am TRYING to like the Rokinon enough to buy it.

Jim's last pics just knock it out of contention, once again.
No offense, Jim, and it obviously has nothing to do with your photog skills, but your cat pics look flat, dull, & boring to me. I'm really not trolling here, just an honest opinion.



Mar 20, 2010 at 04:43 PM
Jim Schemel
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p.3 #18 · Alt 85mm lenses


No offense taken.Just to note i did very little PP here.I could have easily upped the contrast which i think was at one but i did not want to blow out the white on his fur.
-Jim



Mar 20, 2010 at 04:48 PM
ulrikft2
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p.3 #19 · Alt 85mm lenses


I don't see a flat and boring cat, I see quite a bit of pop there.. placebo ?


Mar 20, 2010 at 04:50 PM
Jim Schemel
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p.3 #20 · Alt 85mm lenses


A few more with the Rok, where a little more PP was done to make them pop a bit more.All shots were wide open on 5D
-Jim


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4041/4293541808_2501e1e989_b.jpg


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4001/4292804251_0da7f20c44_b.jpg


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2803/4254089207_7a182587f0_b.jpg



Mar 20, 2010 at 04:53 PM
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