fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
FM Forum Rules
Wedding Resource List
  

FM Forums | Wedding Photographer | Join Upload & Sell

1       2              4       end
  

Archive 2010 · Branding...

  
 
CRFTony
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #1 · Branding...


VPell wrote:
Firstly, those are the bottom end of the high end, with Armani not even technically being high end. Second, that's not why people buy those brands, only stupid people buy those brands for that reason.


Okay, so only stupid people buy things because of branding. And only cheap companies use branding successfully. Got it.



Feb 07, 2010 at 10:37 AM
VPell
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #2 · Branding...


CarminaF wrote:
Hey Vpell,

I think you are trying to substitute a brand for a substantive product. Without substance, a brand is a lie and it won't last. In a world full of photos, its not about the objects themselves anymore - it's about the stories you tell. Namely, the story of how you live, who you are and what you stand for.

If I'm staring a wall of cans of creamed corn, with no sophisticated way to tell them apart, which one do I choose? I choose the one that tells a story, the Jolly Green giant, even though it costs a
...Show more

I'm not doing that at all. TRR is arguing this.

I actually agreed with TRR on all his points (because he never actually debated my actual problem of "overbranding" being associated with garbage, which a TON of wedding photographers do), except this one:

TRReichman wrote:
Your images do NOT ( NOT, NOT, NOT !!!!! ) brand themselves at all. Your images mean what you tell people they mean.


That is stupid, condescending, and bubble business talk, period, and it honestly SCREAMS projection.

IMO a lot of people are obsessed with smoke and mirrors because THEY'RE smoke and mirrors, have never been anything else, and it's a monkey on their back, so of course someone is going to fight tooth and nail over the fact that they think wearing Armani (omg mall clothes LMAO) is merely due to the perception the brand gives... GOD FORBID it's because they actually liked the cut, or it physically felt better... They themselves don't have the knowledge or understanding to distinguish a well built car, a good suit cut, or a finely made watch, and so they have to be sold something or be told by 50 other people whether it's good or not.



Feb 07, 2010 at 11:25 AM
VPell
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #3 · Branding...


People need to read the last sentence on the first post.


Feb 07, 2010 at 11:26 AM
VPell
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #4 · Branding...


Evan Baines wrote:
Branding is NOT the same as Marketing. It is possible to cultivate a brand without ANY active marketing efforts.



I actually have no problem with the concept of branding, check out the last sentence in my first post. It was probably poorly worded as I was kinda just speaking my mind.

However though what you said is accurate, it should be said that branding is a part of marketing. Meaning it is possible to market without any active marketing efforts.



Feb 07, 2010 at 11:31 AM
VPell
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #5 · Branding...


lisy78 wrote:
This is kinda weird.

I'm reading this thread and as I read the replies that TRR is getting I am puzzled... he clearly writes in simple english why all the misunderstandings?

Even VPell... dude... your comment that Google is not about the branding... they are the best at what they do.... hold it right there. BAM! Branding! That's right. Branding! For all I know Bing (Microsoft's newest competitor to Google) might be technically superior... but you (and I, and a huge portion of the American public) think that Google can do no evil (oh wait... more branding?) and that they are indeed
...Show more


Firstly, his posts here on branding contradict his own branding.

And no, Bing is not better. If you would like to argue the technical reasons why Google has physically created the best search engine on the internet IMO, I'd be more than happy to. And who said Google can do no evil? Stay on topic please.

Bing is a rebrand of Windows Live... Not, MICROSOFT'S NEWEST COMPETITOR TO GOOGLE. It seems like you just eat up crappy branding that has literally been laughed at by anyone who can see past it.



Feb 07, 2010 at 11:53 AM
VPell
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #6 · Branding...


To finally sum up my thoughts.

My problem I guess is that, although branding can absolutely enhance a good product that belongs on the market and deserves its place, it can also be an abused gimmick that sells a bad product, which is socially irresponsible and is a plague. Crap for the masses is FINALLY out of style.

The public's faith in your brand should not be abused in order to deliver weak content that we personally don't even believe is saleable on its own, in nice packages. We also shouldn't be resorting to narcissism and saying that they have no opinion over our work outside of what we tell them to think. I don't care if this plan is currently making you money. It's stupid.



Feb 07, 2010 at 12:46 PM
TRReichman
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #7 · Branding...


VPell wrote:
[

That is stupid, condescending, and bubble business talk, period, and it honestly SCREAMS projection.

IMO a lot of people are obsessed with smoke and mirrors because THEY'RE smoke and mirrors, have never been anything else, and it's a monkey on their back, so of course someone is going to fight tooth and nail over the fact that they think wearing Armani (omg mall clothes LMAO) is merely due to the perception the brand gives... GOD FORBID it's because they actually liked the cut, or it physically felt better... They themselves don't have the knowledge or understanding to distinguish a well built
...Show more

OK, I rarely take things personally, and when I do I NEVER post it here (its part of my brand ) but the whole stupid, condescneding stuff is exactly the type of thing I've tried to brand myself not to attract. I've gone out of my way (even when I didn't want to) to never call someone stupid, or be condescending. Nevertheless, I'll try one last time to sum up my thoughts and rebuttals to the last few posts.

There is art and there is professional photography. You can do art all you want, but that's not really what we are concerned with here. We are concerned with professional photography which is not just the ART of it, but also all the stuff that goes into being a PRO. Part of being a pro is the marketing, branding, accounting, clean up, tax prep, maintenance, snow removal, etc. Just because there are mundane aspects to what we do it doesn't detract from or dilute the magic of the art. It doesn't mean our work has no substance if we also engage in the necessary activities of running the business.

There is not a single successful company that does not properly brand and market. It just doesn't happen. Even if you don't see it, it is happening. It is NOT (as nOtLisy so nicely put it) a lie, its just helping a potential client (who is almost certainly not as educated in the work that you do) about why what you do has value. All this talk of letting the photos sell themselves assumes that the client has enough expert opinion on photography to discern what is great, good, mediocre, etc. This is where I think the attitude is naive. I don't say naive to be mean, I intend the literal use of the word naive.

I charge a fairly high sum of money for what I do. I don't charge it to rip anyone off, I charge it because I know how much it actually costs to run a business and most photographers don't bother to learn this stuff. They charge on what everyone else is charging, and everyone else is probably charging ineffectively. On top of this, a large percentage of those lower-priced photographers are pretty good photographers. If branding is badwrongawful, how will I get by? Are you insinuating that I don't deserve a living because there is a cheaper, pretty good photographer down the street?

Its easy to talk about throwing branding out the window when you are charging market rate. Its easy to be dismissive if you aren't aiming for the best you can do in both art and business. I am trying to do the best I can do in both, and as such I put just as much effort into business as I do photography. I refuse to feel bad about this or take on an art-school-guilt trip about selling out or lying about what I do. Its naive. I sell my work at an appropriate price to people who want what I do. To find those people, or better yet to help them find me, I have to brand.

Because branding helps clients make decisions. They are having a hard time choosing between us out there. As you all know, there are tons of us now. How will they choose? Because whether you like it or not, its NOT easy for a non-photographer to just look at portfolios and feel utterly confident of their decision. The reason for that is there are a whole set of concerns beyond just the portfolio. If you are ignoring branding, you are ignoring this fundamental concern in the mind of a wedding photography client. They not only wany good photos, they want a sympathetic eye, or a fashionable approach, or a caring friend, or whatever. They don't just want good photos, they want the right person/brand/studio/experience/etc. This is what branding does for us. It helps to encapsulate ALL the value that we can provide, and it helps to frame for the non-expert client exactly what the value of our particular portfolio provides.

But, its entirely possible that I'm just full of stupid, condescending "bubble" talk. I guess if that's what you believe then that's fine. I guess I shouldn't have bothered posting any of my thoughts for the benefit of others. I guess I should have kept my opinions to myself. I guess the 80% of my time that I spend on branding was wasted, as the business was going to come no matter what?

But that talk is just sour grapes on my part. I'm sorry if people don't get it. I've tried to post ideas that I believe are empirically beneficial to anyone endeavoring to run a successful, profitable, sustainable photography business. All I can say is that I am positive this stuff will help. Ignore it if you like.

thanks

- trr



Feb 07, 2010 at 01:22 PM
TRReichman
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #8 · Branding...


Also, since Evan posted, its important to mention that Evan's existance on this forum makes me question why I should post at all. A while back I was a lurker on this forum. I didn't see much good business talk. In fact, I saw folks advocating some pretty unprofessional advice and calling it great. It bugged me that I knew some people were using this forum for their primary education and it just didn't seem right to have negative ideas put out there. So I started posting, but I was trying to create a perception that I knew something about business, was reasonable, polite, and thoughtful.

Honestly, Evan is "better" known here for doing that kind of thing. He has the stronger brand on this forum for doling out professional advice. I wonder what purpose I have? What's the point of being just another if there is already a "market leader" for what you do? I've had to think long and hard as to whether there is a branding position worth filling? And I'm not in competition with Evan, he's definitely one of the good guys. I just know that he probably gets more out of this forum than I do, and is held in higher regard, and has a stronger brand. Am I better off on another forum? Would I be more successful trying to present my ideas somewhere else? I only post this because the idea of branding isn't a bad one and it is applicable to almost every aspect of interactive life. The question of success is not just based in content, its based in effective structure, positioning, and perception.

Think about not only why you choose the "best" thing that you do, but how you justify it to yourself. Regardless of what we think we don't all always choose the best thing out there because its the best. We choose the best because we tell ourselves a story about what we believe to be the best, and that story makes us feel something positive. Often, the story we tell ourselves is the one the company told us.

Sorry for the rambling.

- trr



Feb 07, 2010 at 01:30 PM
TRReichman
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #9 · Branding...


lisy78 wrote:
P.S. TRR - when you set up a workshop please shoot me an email


Funny, I just finalized the contracts to speak in Louisiana at the end of the month (Feb 22,23,24). I'll post the details elsewhere. The wife and I have also done all-day seminars on business,profit and branding (without having products or dvds to sell afterwards) and if there would be interest here in attending something like that please PM me and I'll see if there is time later in the year to do one.

thanks

- trr




Feb 07, 2010 at 01:33 PM
VPell
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #10 · Branding...


TRReichman wrote:
Also, since Evan posted, its important to mention that Evan's existance on this forum makes me question why I should post at all. A while back I was a lurker on this forum. I didn't see much good business talk. In fact, I saw folks advocating some pretty unprofessional advice and calling it great. It bugged me that I knew some people were using this forum for their primary education and it just didn't seem right to have negative ideas put out there. So I started posting, but I was trying to create a perception that I knew something about
...Show more

Uhh... Lol? Maybe posting on an internet forum isn't all about business? Have you ever even thought of that? Or that there is subjection involved here and things that work for one person, may not necessarily work for the next? Good grief.

Also for that previous wall of text you posted. I stated my clear view on this subject in my previous post. I didn't say anything ridiculous or illogical there. No one is talking about throwing away branding or ignoring it's importance. My argument is understanding it's place. Your wall of text addressed nothing of my actual issue, and I'm not going back into it, you will just have to learn to comprehend my possibly poorly worded posts.



Feb 07, 2010 at 01:34 PM
radioblurs
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #11 · Branding...


VPell wrote:
To finally sum up my thoughts.

My problem I guess is that, although branding can absolutely enhance a good product that belongs on the market and deserves its place, it can also be an abused gimmick that sells a bad product, which is socially irresponsible and is a plague. Crap for the masses is FINALLY out of style.

The public's faith in your brand should not be abused in order to deliver weak content that we personally don't even believe is saleable on its own, in nice packages. We also shouldn't be resorting to narcissism and saying that they have no opinion
...Show more

you must have somebody specific in mind b/c this certainly isn't a response to any of the credible and useful responses you've received (and i've read most of them)



Feb 07, 2010 at 02:07 PM
VPell
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #12 · Branding...


radioblurs wrote:
you must have somebody specific in mind b/c this certainly isn't a response to any of the credible and useful responses you've received (and i've read most of them)


Make no mistake, I agree with everything in this thread except for one, very stupid line, in which I've brought up as a problem and was actually my core problem and the reason I wrote my OP.



Feb 07, 2010 at 02:10 PM
VPell
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #13 · Branding...


And no, I don't consider TRR to be dishing out crap for the masses, but I can see how he could be inclined to if business didn't suit the time it took to develop a decent photo. Those comments address a rather large problem, that is not even remotely exclusive to one photographer, the industry, or businesses in this country.


Feb 07, 2010 at 02:12 PM
CRFTony
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #14 · Branding...


I'd like for you to post some links to photographers sites who are "overbranding". I really haven't seen any photographers who use branding like cheap beer or junk food companies, but maybe I'm missing them.


Feb 07, 2010 at 02:18 PM
lisy78
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #15 · Branding...


VPell wrote:
Firstly, his posts here on branding contradict his own branding.

And no, Bing is not better. If you would like to argue the technical reasons why Google has physically created the best search engine on the internet IMO, I'd be more than happy to. And who said Google can do no evil? Stay on topic please.

Bing is a rebrand of Windows Live... Not, MICROSOFT'S NEWEST COMPETITOR TO GOOGLE. It seems like you just eat up crappy branding that has literally been laughed at by anyone who can see past it.


VPell,

when I don't wear my photographer superhero costume I'm a senior IT dude with 14 years in the industry... so yeah I know a thing or two about search engines etc

And yes, unless microsoft released a new search engine that I'm not aware of, Bing is INDEED Microsoft's Newest Competitor to Google. I didn't say it's not live.com with a new name. It is... but they can call it donald duck for all I care until they replace it with something else it's still their newest one

The Google can do no evil was a play off their mission statement... clearly a fantastic example of branding is found right there as well.

They put an ad on the superbowl tonight. You may have seen it. It was a VERY good ad. I'm still surprised you don't see the 12 tons of branding that google layers upon their site.

Heck... even that completely white page with the simple logo and the search box. Jeez... if that doesn't convey "we are simply the best at what we do. We are THE PLACE you come to search, plain and simple".

Oh and one last thing... when someone spends some time trying to have a conversation with you about a subject you wanted to talk about... it's customarily not considered polite to refer to their contributions as "WALL OF TEXT" just sayin'

oh and apologies in advance for this wall of text too



Feb 07, 2010 at 11:17 PM
Paul Freeman
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #16 · Branding...


Great thread.
I have not spent much time thinking about Branding and posts like this help alot.
Thanks to VPell for starting it. Please roll with all these opinions.

I can easily relate to all viewpoints and thanks to "all" who have taken the time to post, and please no one else gets to leave! we need everyone, I mean anyone, who has an opinion on the subject, to contribute.

Is this thought on topic?...lets see, which came first, the chicken or the egg [my photograph or my branding]? Are we constantly alternating seamlessly, unaware?

I read somewhere, awhile ago, this brief conversation:
Person A said to person B, "I'm not a philosophical person".
Person B responded, "Well, that is your philosophy".




Feb 08, 2010 at 01:50 AM
sboerup
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #17 · Branding...


This thread should be sticky, there is so much solid and sound business info from Todd and Evan (and others if I missed you) that EVERYONE should be taking notes and trying to think about their approach to branding and adopting a lot of the principles they are dishing out for free.

It's true what they say, free advice has no value. But, this is probably the MOST valuable post in terms of awesome business tips that has been posted on FM in the past 12 months.

If I were to sum up branding in one sentence, it would be something like this: A company's branding influences the minds of consumers to understand, decide and act in a very specific and/or controlled way.

Essentially, a photographer's branding should be sending a message to potential clients that THEY are the photographer's to hire for their photographic needs. They could very well be mediocre photographers, but if you are able to educate your clients on WHY you are the best at what you do then they will come. Every facet of your business is your brand, what you make of it is totally up to you. I agree with Todd that your images are not necessarily your brand (not that you images do not matter), but to most consumers, they are basing their decisions to hire a professional photographer on many many other reasons.

I have met many brides that hired me solely because their friend recommended me. Sure they looked around, but a solid referral is what mattered more to them (more than price, more than quality, more than convenience or customer service). To other brides, they know quality photography when they see it and hire the best one they can find (FIND is about your marketing, BEST ONE is your branding, not necessarily BEST photography, but BEST in their mind). Other brides find the cheapest photographer. My point being, every consumer makes decisions about buying a product for many MANY reasons. What you need to do is discover who your client is and create a brand that they want more than another. Then you just need to find out how to help them find you.



Feb 08, 2010 at 10:13 AM
Tony Hoffer
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #18 · Branding...


VPell, you've been one of my favorite posters here for a long time. You always seem to call it like you see it and rarely take anything or anyone personally....

With that said, I just read through this whole thing and it seems like you had your mind made up before you even started on this one. I'd imagine that if you tried to clear your head from this thread and then re-read it, you'd probably view some of the responses differently.


Also, regarding your question of "overbranding"... There's no doubt that there are a lot of photographers out there who see 'famous' photographers talking about branding, so the go out, buy a logo, blog about their cool dog and other things they think are branding. So, sure, it happens. You, however, don't seem like the kind of person who would just blindly copy other people, so I wouldn't worry much about it.



Feb 08, 2010 at 10:34 AM
VPell
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #19 · Branding...


Tony Hoffer wrote:
With that said, I just read through this whole thing and it seems like you had your mind made up before you even started on this one. I'd imagine that if you tried to clear your head from this thread and then re-read it, you'd probably view some of the responses differently..



You're right that I had my mind made up when I made the thread. But I actually have changed my opinion since I believe I understand how branding really applies to a photography business better.

I still feel that your products and services should be driving your brand, rather than your brand driving your products and services. Branding can enhance a good product and help it secure a place in the market where it's deserved, however my problem, is with branding that is used to sell an average, or mediocre product (which it can). That seems irresponsible and can give people a skewed view of branding (which happened with me, andI believe happens to a person who overbrands).

Also, I'm not sure of what everyone's definition of overbranding is. I'm not necessarily talking about too many logos, or over the top blog posts, some people ARE over the top, and may LOVE over the top design schemes. I just personally believe that if someone is so focused on giving consumers a desired perception that they're literally focusing 95% of their time on it, then it's overbranding.

Also to give you some input on the type of person I am when it comes to this stuff... I mute super bowl commercials, or change the channel to PBS during breaks. I love content, that's my brand.



Feb 08, 2010 at 10:43 AM
VPell
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #20 · Branding...


And also just to clear stuff up, I would've chosen my words MUCH better if I had to make the OP again, and I've actually contemplated editing it.


Feb 08, 2010 at 10:48 AM
1       2              4       end




FM Forums | Wedding Photographer | Join Upload & Sell

1       2              4       end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account