I need some advice on a purchase. I currently have a 430EX. I'm thinking of getting either a 580EXII or for about the same price a basic RadioPopper set and another 430EX (EXII). The final system would be used for portrait and real estate shoots. I'm leaning toward the RadioPopper and 430s because its radio rather than infrared and would give me more flexibility in terms of setups. However, I think I may be overlooking something. Any thoughts?
get a 580exII and a set of ebay triggers the rf-402 you will appreciate being able to have one flash on cam for fill and one flash on a stand with umbrella as a key light and do it all in E-ttl auto. For what you need, the rf-402s for $30 will work just fine when you want two flashes off cam on manual.
Hello, perhaps swap out the Radio Poppers for PocketWizard miniTT1 and FlexTT5? I have a set of these and now that PW has released the AC5 shield even my noisy 430EX is firing properly now.
Plus, the miniTT1 look ooohhhhh soooo cooool on the camera.
john tunney wrote:
...I'm thinking of getting either a 580EXII or for about the same price a basic RadioPopper set and another 430EX (EXII).
...However, I think I may be overlooking something.
The thing you're overlooking is that the Radio Poppers act as radio translators for the Speedlite's signals. That means you need at least one Speedlite that is Master capable. The 430EX and 430EX II are Slave only, so you need at least one 580EX, ST-E2, or other Master unit.
(BTW, the 580EX and 580EX II send the command and control signals with visible light. Only the ST-E2 uses infrared.)
I am not a big fan of eTTL but you could use it if you like it, or when in a hurry, or use the master 580EX in full manual mode instead. IR control is pretty good indoors.
I am not aware of RF-402 but the RF-602 are great radio triggers (they also act as a radio camera remote); very reliable - you cannot go wrong for the price.
For basic radiopoppers I guess you mean the JrX system. Six months after introduction, the RP cube for Canon is still not available (they had promised 6 weeks!). Therefore, triggering with manual control from the transmitter (their main advantage over RF-602) is not available.
BrianO wrote:
The thing you're overlooking is that the Radio Poppers act as radio translators for the Speedlite's signals. That means you need at least one Speedlite that is Master capable. The 430EX and 430EX II are Slave only, so you need at least one 580EX, ST-E2, or other Master unit.
(BTW, the 580EX and 580EX II send the command and control signals with visible light. Only the ST-E2 uses infrared.)
Hi, when you say command and control signals with visible light, and since you are saying that you`re not talking about IR, do you mean the 580EX II sends the signal through the flash? could you explain further please, I got the ST-E2 and it sucks in sunlight( I understand its because the IR).
Metering is done off the viewfinder before the shutter opens. All the control and metering pre-flash pulses come from the main flash head of the 580ex between the time the shutter is fully pushed and the shutter opens. Even if the Main flash on a 580ex in Master mode is disabled via the zoom button it will still fire the pre-flashes to control the slave. There are also control pre-flashes (but no metering pre-flashes) when flashes are used in M mode, which makes it impossible to meter them with a hand held flash meter.
All of the pre-flashes occur so rapidly that from behind the camera they seem to merge with the main flash. But what flash you can see through the viewfinder are the pre-flashes. You can't see the main flash because the mirror blocks the viewfinder.
The ST-E2 is a flash with a red filter over it. Per Chuck Westfall of Canon the peak output is in the IR range but there is also some visible red light emitted which is visible in a dark room. The problem with the ST-E2 range isn't the fact it uses IR but is has such low power: you can spit further than it outputs light.
The other issue with range in general is the need to keep the sensor on the slave - the small gray lens under the flash head on the front of the base - oriented towards the Master. Direct line of sight is not needed. I routinely fire my slave optically through doorways and large rooms...
In the second shot the slave on stage out of frame to the left was triggered by bouncing the Master off the high ceiling overhead.
The caveat with Canon wireless is not blocking the sensor on the slave. Some users don't even have a clue where the slave sensor is. To get effective signaling you first need to orient the front base of the slave to face the Master, then rotate the flash head towards the subject. That was another consideration in my modifier design: keeping it on top of the flash makes it easy to do that.
Outdoor its necessary to keep the slave sensor out of direct sunlight. Since the most effective way to shoot outdoors is putting the back of the subject to the sun (using it as rim light) in a two flash solution the base of the key light is turned back to face the camera and the slave sensor shaded from the sun. The ST-E2 fails outdoors because its wimpy, not due to IR.
Blocking the senor on the slave limits the use of modifiers, but a fact of life is that Canon wireless flash is not designed for use with modifiers which block the slave sensor. Granted adding radio triggers is a workaround, but I'd rather spend the money on devices that generate light.
Understanding the limits of optical slaves from using them on Vivitar flashes for many years I designed diffusers which are quite effective in a dual flash configuration but to not block the sensor on the slave:
In a dual flash configuration where key light overlaps neutral axis fill - what occurs when a Master on a flash bracket is used - the softness of the shadows and the impression of the softness in general can be controlled with the fill intensity instead of trying to wrap a huge key light source to make the shadows softer. Here's a comparison of lighting with the small diffusers vs larger studio modifiers:
The concept is really quite simple and technically sound. If you lift the shadows with the fill source you can make them as light or dark as you want before adding the key light. Since the shadows are already lifted with the fill there's no need to wrap the key light as you would if only using one light. People who learn with one light don't grasp this basic cause and effect. Its the overlap of key over the even fill which fit the range of the scene to the sensor.
Equipment choices are a balance of convenience, effectiveness and cost. Canon flash using a 580ex as Master and 580ex or 430ex as slave is a very effective and portable location lighting solution when used as I do with modifiers which don't block the sensor on the slave. If you attempt to convert them into something they are not designed for by adding large modifiers their performance becomes marginalized, they are less portable, and third party radio triggers are required.
The best solution is to use the tool best suited for each job. If you want to do quality portrait work and also have a portable location solution you could do what I do: own both tools. if you are on a fixed budget buy what you will get the most use from.
Starting with a 430ex I'd buy a 580ex and use the Canon wireless system to its practical limits. Read my tutorials (click the WWW button below this message) and you may be surprised what you can do with that combination.
Beyond what you can do with a 580ex/430ex you could go two directions: throw more money at the Canon system to make it into a studio lighting system, or buy some studio lighting gear and do the job with a set of tools better suited for the job.
If you start with Canon wireless >> with a 580ex Master <<<< by the time you get to the point where you need something more you will be able to make an informed decision which expansion path to take based on you own personal experience.
If I understand you correctly, since the 580EX sends the signal (let say to the 430EX) through the flash and not IR, then the distance is much greater outdoors, IR in full sun I get about 7-12 feet, but If I use the 580ex I should easily get 20-25 feet in full sun, does that sounds right?
avi monin wrote:
...in full sun I get about 7-12 feet [with the ST-E2], but If I use the 580ex I should easily get 20-25 feet in full sun, does that sounds right?
It really depends on a lot of factors.
If the direction of the sun and the flash-to-subject angle combine in such a way that the sun is hitting the receiver on the 430EX, then it might not work even at a lower range. On the other hand if the 430EX is shaded and the Master unit has a direct line of sight that's perpendicular to the sun's rays you could get surprisingly good range.
25 feet should be possible much of the time, but I wouldn't say 100% of the time.
bigbearbear wrote:
Hello, perhaps swap out the Radio Poppers for PocketWizard miniTT1 and FlexTT5? I have a set of these and now that PW has released the AC5 shield even my noisy 430EX is firing properly now.
Plus, the miniTT1 look ooohhhhh soooo cooool on the camera.
Bigbear.
No No No. Do NOT get the PocketWizards. They're awful.
I own both the PocketWizards and the RadioPoppers, and the RP are SO much better. Range is not the only issue I've had with them.
avi monin wrote:
If I understand you correctly, since the 580EX sends the signal (let say to the 430EX) through the flash and not IR, then the distance is much greater outdoors, IR in full sun I get about 7-12 feet, but If I use the 580ex I should easily get 20-25 feet in full sun, does that sounds right?
Avi
The specified range for a 580ex outdoors is 25ft. but I've exceeded it. As stated previously you simply need to orient the base of the slave containing the sensor towards the master flash and keep direct sunlight off of it.
Assuming you have an on-camera or built in flash capable of acting as a Master flash to control your Remote speedlights, the Radiopopper (PX or the older P1) will let you control everything right from your camera. So even if you like to use your remote flashes on manual, with the RP you can adjust them from the camera instead of going back and forth to the flash. My camera (D700) has a pop-up flash that can act as a Master to my SB-900, I use it with the RP P1's, it is very light weight.
ExtendedPuppet wrote:
Assuming you have an on-camera or built in flash capable of acting as a Master flash to control your Remote speedlights, the Radiopopper (PX or the older P1) will let you control everything right from your camera. So even if you like to use your remote flashes on manual, with the RP you can adjust them from the camera instead of going back and forth to the flash. .
That's a good point. I use a 2-3 Speedlight setup, mostly in manual, with a 580 on-camera. I always adjust levels from the 580, it would be horrible to not have that capability.
The 602 doesn't allow this?
Does anyone know if you can do this with a Paul Buff system, or maybe adjust Speedlights directly with the cyber-commander?
cgardner wrote:
The specified range for a 580ex outdoors is 25ft. but I've exceeded it. As stated previously you simply need to orient the base of the slave containing the sensor towards the master flash and keep direct sunlight off of it.
Cableaddict wrote:
...Does anyone know if you can do this with a Paul Buff system, or maybe adjust Speedlights directly with the cyber-commander?
No, the command and control signals are different. The Cyber Commander can't control Speedlites, and Speedlites can't control PCB strobes. (To the best of my knowledge.)
If you get a Radiopopper PX set up, you can control Speedlights and PCB telephone-style-jack strobes (not the upcoming Einsteing though), from a single PX transmitter on camera.
cgardner wrote:
The specified range for a 580ex outdoors is 25ft. but I've exceeded it. As stated previously you simply need to orient the base of the slave containing the sensor towards the master flash and keep direct sunlight off of it.
Hi Chuck - everytime I see something posted in regards to lighting ( mainly in the Canon arena - you pop in and come to the call of duty ) - I just recently happened to re-reading your information on your website and each and every time - I learn something new or at least something I want to try. Just yesterday, I was looking through it again and realized I had the Stroboframe ProT flash bracket - and really have never used it - for some reason it just felt wobbly and clumsy to me. Well last night I pulled it all back out - figured out a way to firm it up and feel more stable and now I love the way it feels.
At any rate - thanks for always offering some great information and advice - I always look forward to your post !
VaNG-eLiS wrote:
For basic radiopoppers I guess you mean the JrX system. Six months after introduction, the RP cube for Canon is still not available (they had promised 6 weeks!). Therefore, triggering with manual control from the transmitter (their main advantage over RF-602) is not available.
Van
Since you are not using ttl it doesn't matter what brand flash you use. Pick up the the jrx studio set a few extra receivers and some cheap nikon ttl flashes. even though you aren't using ttl the flashes need to be ttl to be controlled by the jrx transmitter. Then google diy rpcube to learn how to make the connector.
