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Archive 2009 · a850 vs a900, 1 stop better noise performance?

  
 
douglasf13
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p.2 #1 · a850 vs a900, 1 stop better noise performance?


Huh Nothing here seems trollish to me.


Dec 18, 2009 at 06:21 PM
moire
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p.2 #2 · a850 vs a900, 1 stop better noise performance?


I doubt there is much difference at all. Maybe a slight difference due to slightly different firmware.

Is it a subjective difference or not ... Looking at other sites etc shows only a very slight difference.



Dec 18, 2009 at 07:42 PM
cogitech
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p.2 #3 · a850 vs a900, 1 stop better noise performance?


douglasf13 wrote:
Huh Nothing here seems trollish to me.


+1.

I've known most of the folks in this thread for quite some time and none of them have ever even pretended to be a troll.



Dec 18, 2009 at 07:56 PM
you2
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p.2 #4 · a850 vs a900, 1 stop better noise performance?


I went over there (getdpi) and read his comments; he thought it was mostly the blue channel but it did little to improve noise performance. He seemed very negative towards the mk 5d ii. Anyways, i guess I'll sit back and wait a couple of months; it is freaking cold right now and I'm not going to be taking many pictures until it warms up a little.

douglasf13 wrote:
you2, I didn't really mean to imply that you or anyone here were the typical user. I think this forum is generally helpful and nice. As far as the A850, I'm just not really sure as to how noticeable the color differences are between it and the A900, but, I certainly take stock in what Andrey from RPP said in that they are different.

I would suggest that you go over to getdpi and ask around. I know there are at least a couple of DMR to A900 converts.




Dec 18, 2009 at 08:54 PM
wayne seltzer
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p.2 #5 · a850 vs a900, 1 stop better noise performance?


Yes, top of the line printers can produce colors outside of the range of alot of monitors except for top of the line EIZO monitors. Mark Dubovy did a nice article on this on LL.
Being a PC user, I learned from this article that MAC's have a utility to plot the color gamuts of an ICC profile so you can see the gamut plots of the monitor and the printer.




Dec 18, 2009 at 08:57 PM
wayne seltzer
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p.2 #6 · a850 vs a900, 1 stop better noise performance?


Sorry but my earlier comments are a result of a long frustration of not having the right data to know exactly what is causing the Sony A900 color difference in relation to Canon and Nikon colors. I want to know more in depth on the color differences:
1) ability to represent various different tones of a color in the image.
2) the color accuracy and a gamut plot to indicate which colors a camera has problems recording accurately.
3) how come different CFA's between models withing the same camera maker do not result in great changes in that camera's maker's look. But the different CFA's between camera makers cause the color difference say between Canon and Sony.
4) how much of the difference is caused by the lens drawing differences between SOny -Zeiss lenses and Canon's?
I was dissapointed that when I asked Andrey in the other forum about this, he gave me the opionated and no fact response that Canon color is bad and Sony is the best.
I also hate when fanboys like Marc say Sony is the one and only and you should take my word for it because I am the world's best wedding photographer and have used different makers cameras. It is a little over the top for me too. Just like I would not make a decision to buy Canon over Nikon, just because Jeff Ascough(sp?) says that he buys Canon because he can't get good skin color out of the Nikon cameras. I think all three camera makes are good and one should make their own choices on what they prefer.Other factors like lens lineup differences between the big 3 also play a role in the decision depending on the types of shooting you like to do. I believe one has to way all these factors like high iso perf, color performance, AF speed, fps, and lens lineup with their own weighting system to make the decision.
I have long thought about renting an A900 with a 135 1.8 to run some comparison test shots of color targets and on actual nature scenes against my 1ds3 and same 135 1.8 converted to EF just to generate some meaningful comparison data to view. I guess from all the lens testing done here in this forum, I would expect better camera comparison testing being done. Sorry for the long response and I was not trying to troll.
Thanks Douglas for your response and I blame not seeing the A350 test result properly on my browser not loading the peformance table. What is weird is that the A380 tested at 7.3 more closer to the A850 and A900 but like you say the A350 is at 6.9.
Don't know what the variability/margin of error is on this test. I also see on the DXO site that the color response on the A350 is even purer than the A900.
Do all the Sony cameras have that same saturated color look?



Dec 18, 2009 at 09:58 PM
douglasf13
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p.2 #7 · a850 vs a900, 1 stop better noise performance?


Hmmm, I'm not exactly sure about the same saturated look. I've never really noticed a saturation difference between Sony and other cameras. I would imagine much of that comes down to processing. I think calling Marc a fanboy is a stretch, because he currently owns or has owned many a digital camera all the way from MFDB, to the m8 and m9, to various other 35mm DSLRs, and shot his D3 and D3x right next to the A900 for at least 8 months. That being said, I can understand hesitancy based on anecdotes. The problem with Andrey and Iliah is that we're dealing with guys of a certain level of expertise that don't spend a ton of time explaining things to us enthusiasts. I know that Iliah thinks that DxO Mark is dubious at best, and he's probably the one tester on the planet that can actually knowingly critique their methodology. When he tests cameras, for what ultimately ends up being used for RPP, he tests multiple samples, uses spectrophotometers, tests sensors with and without the AA/CFA sensor toppings, tests using the same lenses, etc. Total geekdom

Iliah is really the man you need to talk to, and, in the meantime, I can show you a few posts of his that may answer some of the questions you have above.

What differentiates color responces between cameras?

More about cfa

Difference between 5Dii and 1Dsiii

A900 color similar to D2x

Interesting comment about WB multipliers

Interesting comment about camera comparisons

RPP info

Like I mentioned earlier, you may just wanna email him directly.



Dec 18, 2009 at 11:47 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #8 · a850 vs a900, 1 stop better noise performance?


wayne seltzer wrote:
Yes, top of the line printers can produce colors outside of the range of alot of monitors except for top of the line EIZO monitors.



A lot of monitors, yes, but EIZO is not the only one that can equal or even surpass what modern state of the art printers are capable of. There is at least one NEC that offers an amazing 107% of Adobe RGB. Originally selling for a whopping $6500!, it can now be had for $999, complete with color calibration software and hardware. It is the LCD 2180WG, the first LED lit monitor. Nothing can likely touch it for still photography but it's no good for other uses with lots of motion - games for instance - due to it's slow refresh rate.

Many of the WUXI series NEC panels are exceptional and will get you to 96% of Adobe RGB (the top of the line EIZO's claim 97%) much cheaper than an EIZO monitor. Although one might be able to measure a slightly wider gamut than this form current printers, the difference is too small to be readily noticeable.




Dec 19, 2009 at 01:12 AM
philip_pj
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p.2 #9 · a850 vs a900, 1 stop better noise performance?


I decided to buy in to the Sony system after reading the views of a lot of users who had either moved from MFDBs or ran one along with a Sony. Virtually all, as with Marc quoted above, were impressed with out-of-camera colour. They impressed me as highly literate and impartial. I doubt that the issue has much to do with accuracy, so much as image appeal. So the review sites and their GM swatches are not of much use.

What is also striking is the response of non-photographers to the output from the A900, and one is starting to see recognition of this more widely these days. Yet, the high ISO mania reigns as the metric of the moment - which is totally inexplicable for RAW output.

Wayne, was it coincidence that 'high ISO perf' was the first 'factor' you listed in your post above? Given the choice between high ISO and better colour tonality, I would wager very few outsiders care a fig for the former.

All things considered, colour is very personal and in essence is almost impervious to empirical measurement. Yes, it sounds vague and elitist sometimes, but it may be the case that people have different sensitivities to such characteristics...as they apparently do with...noise.

Tariq, agree re NEC - the 2490WUXI was a revelation, along with the Spectraview s/ware.



Dec 19, 2009 at 01:45 AM
douglasf13
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p.2 #10 · a850 vs a900, 1 stop better noise performance?


It's funny you mention MFDB, as this discussion about color nuance is starting to remind me a bit of the discussion/debate of the differences between 35mm and MFDB. It'll probably never end!


Dec 19, 2009 at 03:07 AM
wayne seltzer
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p.2 #11 · a850 vs a900, 1 stop better noise performance?


Tariq Gibran wrote:
A lot of monitors, yes, but EIZO is not the only one that can equal or even surpass what modern state of the art printers are capable of. There is at least one NEC that offers an amazing 107% of Adobe RGB. Originally selling for a whopping $6500!, it can now be had for $999, complete with color calibration software and hardware. It is the LCD 2180WG, the first LED lit monitor. Nothing can likely touch it for still photography but it's no good for other uses with lots of motion - games for instance - due to it's
...Show more

Yes, I think that is the monitor that Lloyd Chambers of Diglloyd raves about and mentioned in his blog. Those are about the only two that are that wide in color gamut and they are kind of pricey. I will have to rough it with my 30" Apple Cinema display.



Dec 19, 2009 at 03:25 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.2 #12 · a850 vs a900, 1 stop better noise performance?


I think Wayne is on the way to switching to Sony. It always starts with denial, then doubt, then total conversion


Dec 19, 2009 at 03:44 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.2 #13 · a850 vs a900, 1 stop better noise performance?


I think that Philip makes a good point, echoed by Marc's post, and my own experience, and that is clients' positive reaction to the a900 prints.


Dec 19, 2009 at 03:50 AM
wayne seltzer
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p.2 #14 · a850 vs a900, 1 stop better noise performance?


douglasf13 wrote:
It's funny you mention MFDB, as this discussion about color nuance is starting to remind me a bit of the discussion/debate of the differences between 35mm and MFDB. It'll probably never end!


MFDB's are all CCD based sensors with 16 bit of color resolution whose advantage vs. cmos sensors is more understood and has been covered. Color differences due to CFA design between two different cmos sensor camera's is something new with Sony joining the game.
Awhile ago when the color nuance discussions first started I made the claim that the color differences between the 1ds3 and A900 were not that large, and that I thought I could process the 1ds3 files to look very close to the colors from the A900. That was dismissed by the A900 users at the time as not possible.
Just as I have seen some Canon users diss the A900 because of poorer high-iso performance, I have seen Sony users bad-mouth the 5D2 as the "jack of all trades, but never the king" just because Nikon D3x is better at high iso and Sony is better at color response/color rendering as being well rounded is a bad thing.

Anyway, I find talk is cheap and unless someone backs up their claim with some kind of fair comparison shots or some fair test data, then I don't find it that informative.
Fan boys to me are ones who loudly proclaim the camera brand they are using is superior to all others by overexagerating the strengths or their camera and mitigating the negatives of that camera all the while providing no fair comparison shots and just use the defense that I have used all brands in the past so my opinion carries more weight than yours.
Take for example the noise advantage of the D3X versus Canon and Sony. When you look at the DXO noise graphs the Nikon advantage is really only in the low ISO range where their read noise is less. Then it was mentioned that Nikon cheats by only achieving that low noise-level when it is in 14 bit mode where it's fps drops to half as much as in 12 bit mode. These kind of tricks/tradeoffs are not well mentioned or understood by most photographers. From a pure science background I like to understand how the different camera makers get around some of the same rules of physics etc.
Invevitably there are tradeoffs made and rarely does someone hit a home run and outperform all other makers in all areas. Clearly, if one camera maker was significantly better than the others most people would switch over to that brand.
A few years ago before Sony entered the market Canon had the big market lead over Nikon because of better sensor technology. Then they made a deal with Sony to use their sensors which equaled the score again.That deal has limited Nikon from coming out with a D700x to compete against the A900 and kept Sony from producing a high-end pro DSLR which would compete with the D3x.I am not sure how long this marriage will last. Sony camp is dreaming of a new high-end pro FF dslr.Sony needs Nikon's volume for its sensor. But I digress ...




Dec 19, 2009 at 05:11 AM
wayne seltzer
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p.2 #15 · a850 vs a900, 1 stop better noise performance?


To heck with all scientific testing and benchmarking comparisons for cameras and lenses.Let's just use Marc and his clients to determine the better products. !!


Dec 19, 2009 at 05:42 AM
douglasf13
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p.2 #16 · a850 vs a900, 1 stop better noise performance?


Did you email Iliah and ask him for data? Quote honestly, there isn't a single source more qualified in this area, IMO. I have said the 5Dii is a jack of all trades, master of none many, many times, and I stick by that assessment. That doesn't have a negative connotation to me. If anything, I think it was a wise move by Canon overall. It certainly isn't in the D3s league for high ISO, although being very good. As for low ISO, it doesn't have quite the DR, color, or low read noise of the D3x or A900, but, again, it is still very, very good.

I don't think I've ever said the A900 is the best camera around, but, rather, the best at a thing or two. It usually goes something like, "The A900 is a very noisy camera." I usually then respond with, "Well, that's because Sony uses a denser CFA on the sensor than most, and that requires more amplification. The result is better color, worse noise." That is good for some things, and not for others.

You're making way too many assumptions about the market pre-Sony. Nikon was using Sony sensors well before Sony entered the DSLR market, and, IMO, Nikon's renaissance was aided by 1) the little D40 for the mass market and 2)NIkon's introduction of the D3 (which isn't a Sony chip.) A while back, all of Sony's and NIkon's chips were CCD (some still are,) and there were users then that continuously claimed that CCD had advantages over the Canon chips, but, similar to today, everyone went straight for the noise tests. I still know of quite a few A100 users that prefer its output to the newer CMOS cams they own now, but, again, anecdotes. The whole agreement thing between Sony and Nikon regarding the D3x and pro Sony body is pure speculation. Sony and NIkon share sensors in similarly priced cameras all across the board, and the D3x doesn't sell in enough volume to be an issue.

To be honest, I'm more interested in discussing the new D3s. According to everyone from Iliah to Thom Hogan, Nikon has somehow improved both its high ISO AND its color. Now that is a real mystery I'd like to learn about



Dec 19, 2009 at 06:13 AM
davidbogdan
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p.2 #17 · a850 vs a900, 1 stop better noise performance?


I'd like to chime in here.

Two months ago I had the opportunity to meet with Marc. He graciously invited me over for a beer and burger in response to information I shared with him which proved useful.
I only knew Marc from this brief exchange over the web, yet was interested in meeting with a fellow photographer and was looking forward related conversation.
Shortly after my arrival a delivery came in the form of a new M9 to accompany his already huge inventory of gear. Large, medium,35mm Slr, rangefinders, film, digital, you name it.
He is a passionate artist and mentor. Both can be easily seen through his paintings, sculptures, attention to detail and in his readiness to share his tried and tested knowledge. And believe it.... the man is a wealth of knowledge.
I'm no one special and if you do a web search on me you'll come up short, but I can assure you that the man you are dissing, can easily back up what he writes!

Can you? .... Why the attitude?

David Bogdan




Dec 19, 2009 at 06:49 AM
wayne seltzer
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p.2 #18 · a850 vs a900, 1 stop better noise performance?


The D700 and A900 do not share the same sensor but are the closest in FF price range.
The A900 and D3x share the same sensor but are totally different price points.
The D3 is FF instead of 1.3 crop like Canon 1d series which is tradeoff of less reach for better high iso.
Why hasn't Nikon come out with a D700x then? Hmm. I wonder.
Sure, would like to hear any real details about how the D3s has better color and high iso.
I will gladly contact Iliah after reading the links you sent me.

Also, when you say that the 5d2 can not compete with the D3s are you talking about a pixel level basis or after taking into account the 21MP to 12MP difference and uprezzing the 12MP shot to the same size as the 21 MP shot and doing the comparison?



Dec 19, 2009 at 06:51 AM
kosmoskatten
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p.2 #19 · a850 vs a900, 1 stop better noise performance?


Interesting thread. I think there are simply too many variables to make a on-the-spot decision of what is best, and for what.

I may have come down a bit hard on Canon the last few years and I have tried to soften the critique a little as I do think they have a few things going for them.

As for all those measurements and benchmark testing that is floating around the internet I don't know what to think or believe or how trustworthy they are. The technology itself is beyond me. But, I can see what is possible to make with the files I get.

For me it was quite simple; my transition into digital lead me into Canon. This was back at the time when Nikon was trailing behind. I stuck with Canon as the alternative systems were not quite where I was aiming at. Neither was Canon but it was the "least-worst" alternative. But, I have never been happy with the output of Canon straight out of the box and it has cost me a lot of time in post pro. After seeing what could be done on the other side of the fence a few years down the digital road (in the other camps) I decided to ditch Canon, but there was still no viable alternative that provided both better imaging and same or better noise/resolution.

The Sony transition sort of happened by chance and when comparing the A900 to my old 5D and a colleagues 1DmkIII we both agreed the Sony files were better looking out of the box. Even my less than enthusiastic girlfriend much preferred the output of the Sony when presented with the results (she did not know which was which) and could easily sort them out. She said the Sony were more life-like.

With careful post pro the files started to look similar only the Sony files could be tweaked to look slightly better in print than the Canon files. (At various lighting and ISO at or below 640.)

As for noise the Sony is trailing behind Canon but it is still good enough for my shooting style by a decent margin. The ISO3200+ results from Canon that I have seen on this forum and elsewhere all look kind of poor to me and I would not want to present images with severe banding and a flat and dull look to my clients but hey - to each his/her own.

Sony A900 for me is the "perfect compromise" with a responsive body, good AF (for my one and only AF lens ), superior viewfinder and solid build. Resolution is all I need, noise levels are as good as I need and the resulting files are great material to work with in post pro. And, require less work for me than with Canon. I get that "I was there" feeling with the Sony files where as with the Canon files I was feeling more "did it really look like this?" feeling. I feel there is more clarity to the Sony files and Sony handles highlights better with a more forgiving recovery and roll off. Shadow noise on Sony is worse but manageable and in printing the shadows look great unless one tries to "recover" them too much, which looks unnatural to me.

I haven't researched Nikon for a long time and haven't looked into their latest offerings as I have found what I am looking for to house my alt glass. I cannot comment on how well Nikon stack up against Sony/Canon as I haven't tried them under the same circumstances and as stated; I haven't a clue to what Nikon's are like today. The press photos I have seen at high ISO have looked great in regards to noise but crap in color but considering the circumstances of those photo sessions I don't hold it against the camera.

As for high end monitors I had a good look at the NEC monitors on the Photo Fair here in Stockholm a month ago. It turned out an old colleague of mine sells them and I have to admit they looked great.

Edited on Dec 19, 2009 at 07:35 AM · View previous versions



Dec 19, 2009 at 07:32 AM
wayne seltzer
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p.2 #20 · a850 vs a900, 1 stop better noise performance?


Sorry David I am not dissing Marc. I know he has alot of experience without alot of different cameras and is a passionate wedding photographer who is very opionated about his camera equipment. I am not saying I am right, or acting like I am better. Far from it.
I just prefer people who are more balanced on their equipment opinions and provide more often example comparisons and other data. This is just my preference. Other people like his approach and make purchasing decisions based on it.



Dec 19, 2009 at 07:35 AM
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