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Archive 2009 · Dynamic Range

  
 
cameron12x
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p.2 #1 · Dynamic Range


Yakim Peled wrote:
The more, the merrier.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.

Indeed. +1.

At this writing, what's interesting is that over 90% of the respondents indicated that dynamic range is an important topic to them.

What's even more interesting is that by greater than a 5:1 margin most folks would like to see camera manufacturers pay more attention to addressing dynamic range in the camera first, before we get to post-processing.



Nov 30, 2009 at 10:37 AM
Alan321
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p.2 #2 · Dynamic Range


Pondria wrote:
We talked a lot about "The 14bit-ness" 2 years ago when 1D3 came out.



Good grief. That long ago ?! Back in the days when my concentration took a bit longer to drift off topic.

They don't make threads like that any more

- Alan



Nov 30, 2009 at 12:27 PM
Booone0
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p.2 #3 · Dynamic Range


Interesting that the 40D tests for a higher average DR than the 5D, which from my anecdotal investigation (translation: reading threads on this forum) is supposed to have a large dynamic range. What gives?


Nov 30, 2009 at 12:29 PM
Alan321
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p.2 #4 · Dynamic Range


Modern cameras have pretty decent DR at their base ISO but lose much of it as the ISO is increased. Stemming that loss would be a highly desirable feature of any new camera for a lot of applications. It seems, for example, that the Nikon D3s goes some way towards that goal but I don't know whether it improves the base level or not. Nikon obviously took the view that enough of us consider the DR as being more important than adding more pixels, and for the most part I go along with that even though having both would be ideal.

- Alan



Nov 30, 2009 at 12:36 PM
Specularist
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p.2 #5 · Dynamic Range


I don't exactly know how digital cameras work, but the sensors fundamentally lose one stop of dynamic range per stop of increased ISO, unless the highlights are clipped (fake low ISOs).

Cameras like the D3S have incredible efficiency at converting photons to electrons, but they make very poor use of that efficiency in the shadow areas at low ISO (they make good use of it in highlights or at high ISO, which is why their high-ISO performance is so spectacular). The 5D is like this as well: its dynamic range at low ISO is poor, even when compared to the best crop-sensor cameras. However, mid-tones and shadows just below will still have less noise than a crop-sensor camera: it's just in the deepest shadows that the modern crop-sensor camera outperforms the 5D.

My limited understanding of this stuff suggests that the analogue-to-digital converters are a significant limiting factor in low-ISO performance. They inject noise into the signal, which becomes very apparent when photon-shot noise is low. This would also explain why Sony's sensors (Nikon D300, Sony A900, etc.) have excellent low-ISO dynamic range: they use thousands of slow-running analogue-to-digital converters instead of Canon's few-and-fast approach. The column-parallel analogue-to-digital conversion technique, as it's known, does seem to produce less noise than the methods used in the Nikon D3/D700 and all Canon cameras.



Nov 30, 2009 at 01:07 PM
Specularist
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p.2 #6 · Dynamic Range


Alan321 wrote:
Modern cameras have pretty decent DR at their base ISO but lose much of it as the ISO is increased. Stemming that loss would be a highly desirable feature of any new camera for a lot of applications.


Given my above post, I think you're approaching this from the wrong end. Instead of wanting a gentler dynamic-range deterioration as the ISO increases, we should demand better low-ISO dynamic range (close to the sensor performance). At high-ISO the cameras are already performing closer to their sensors' full capabilities, because the read noise is small compared to photon-shot noise. It's at low-ISO that the cameras are throwing away loads of dynamic range (perhaps to keep costs low by cheapening out on the ADCs and associated electronics).



Nov 30, 2009 at 01:15 PM
cameron12x
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p.2 #7 · Dynamic Range


Specularist wrote:
I don't exactly know how digital cameras work, but the sensors fundamentally lose one stop of dynamic range per stop of increased ISO, unless the highlights are clipped (fake low ISOs).

Cameras like the D3S have incredible efficiency at converting photons to electrons, but they make very poor use of that efficiency in the shadow areas at low ISO (they make good use of it in highlights or at high ISO, which is why their high-ISO performance is so spectacular). The 5D is like this as well: its dynamic range at low ISO is poor, even when compared to the best
...Show more

It would be interesting to drill into the ADC implementation aspect further...

Specularist wrote:
Given my above post, I think you're approaching this from the wrong end. Instead of wanting a gentler dynamic-range deterioration as the ISO increases, we should demand better low-ISO dynamic range (close to the sensor performance). At high-ISO the cameras are already performing closer to their sensors' full capabilities, because the read noise is small compared to photon-shot noise. It's at low-ISO that the cameras are throwing away loads of dynamic range (perhaps to keep costs low by cheapening out on the ADCs and associated electronics).


I generally agree with your premise.

It's a broad generalization, but landscapes (or similar) subject matter are usually more effective visually with more captured dynamic range. From a practical perspective, many high dynamic range shots are landscapes (or other static subjects), which may require less light and/or a tripod setup.

It follows that higher dynamic range should be addressed first for lower ISO ranges (but I'd also like to see it addressed across all ISO ranges).






Nov 30, 2009 at 01:36 PM
Specularist
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p.2 #8 · Dynamic Range


cameron12x wrote:
It would be interesting to drill into the ADC implementation aspect further...


It would. If it's better—and it seems to be—why isn't everyone using it? Does it suffer from some other downside? It's interesting, though possibly irrelevant, to note that the cameras that are best at high ISOs (Canons generally, and the Nikon D3/D700) do not use the column-parallel ADC technique.

cameron12x wrote:
It follows that higher dynamic range should be addressed first for lower ISO ranges (but I'd also like to see it addressed across all ISO ranges).


So would I, but addressing dynamic range at high ISO is primarily a matter of collecting and converting more photons: something that will be improved in dribs and drabs over the natural course of sensor development. On the other hand, the low-ISO dynamic range in most CMOS cameras is limited by something other than the sensor. To me that seems like a wasted opportunity, and one that's most likely the result of cynical cost-cutting.

Most camera buyers don't know or care about dynamic range, and certainly don't try to squeeze 10 stops or more out of their cameras. This fact makes me think the manufacturers' are exploiting that at the expense of those of us who do know and care. It would be pretty tragic if it turns out that for $50 more (or $10 more?) you can make a camera that takes full advantage of the sensor's dynamic range!



Nov 30, 2009 at 02:23 PM
cameron12x
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p.2 #9 · Dynamic Range


Specularist wrote:
It would be pretty tragic if it turns out that for $50 more (or $10 more?) you can make a camera that takes full advantage of the sensor's dynamic range!


Calling on ejmartin, brainiac, and skibum!



Nov 30, 2009 at 03:21 PM
cameron12x
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p.2 #10 · Dynamic Range


brainiac wrote:
Quoted from another thread:

BTW, there's another simple approach to increased DR: delay-free multiple bracketed exposure. If a sensor can sample an image at 1/100 and instantly take a second sample at 1/1000, without any delay, then the second exposure can provide the highlight data where the first saturates. Total exposure time: 1/91. The video capabilities of current DSLR sensors show that this approach is feasible.


+1. Agreed.

Another arbitrary example is a starting shutter speed of 1/60th (for extreme shadow detail), followed immediately by exposures of 1/500th (for mid-tones), and 1/4000th (for extreme highlight detail). Total exposure time: 1/53.

Frankly, I don't know why we don't already have this functionality. Simply have a HDR mode on the selector dial or via menu. Select the minimum required shutter speed for the subject matter (in order to eliminate motion blur), how many total exposures to be made, and the difference in stops between each exposure and then let the camera processor do the rest. The camera warns you if you select something that won't work with the mounted lens and current ISO setting.

In this particular example, the workflow is pretty simple: select HDR mode, select 3 exposures, and select 3 stops/exposure. Done.



Nov 30, 2009 at 11:00 PM
Photon
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p.2 #11 · Dynamic Range


Hmm. Video modes don't yet work at full DSLR resolution, and I don't know if an electronically gated shutter is quite ready for a three exposure HDR series. If it is, I'm all for it.


Dec 01, 2009 at 12:32 AM
astrolucida
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p.2 #12 · Dynamic Range


Specularist wrote:
On the other hand, the low-ISO dynamic range in most CMOS cameras is limited by something other than the sensor. To me that seems like a wasted opportunity, and one that's most likely the result of cynical cost-cutting.

It would be pretty tragic if it turns out that for $50 more (or $10 more?) you can make a camera that takes full advantage of the sensor's dynamic range!


Actually, it's not that simple.

When Canon moved from 12 bit RAW files to 14 bit RAWs, the theoretical dynamic range at low ISOs increased fourfold (2 stops). Or, to put it in another way, the turning point between low and high ISOs was reduced by a factor of 4. A typical case was from ISO 1600 to ISO 400. This ISO is the "unity gain", i.e. where one count in the RAW file corresponds to one detected photon (=electron) in the sensor.

There is absolutely no need to go any higher than the unity gain ISO as you can get the equivalent result in digital postprocessing. However, if you are taking JPEGs, then the camera can do the postprocessing for you and then it makes sense.

A good example is deep sky astrophotography where every image is underexposed, i.e. more exposure will always give you more detail. Hence, in any case you need to pull as much from the exposure as you can get in the postprocessing. Thus, the optimal ISO is selected for the actual exposure. For the current Canon cameras it is in the range of ISO 200 to ISO 400, depending on the model.

However, in practice the amount of noise limits the dynamic range even more than the theoretical range defined by the number of bits. This noise consists mostly of photon noise, which is inherent in the light itself. The lower the light level and the smaller the sensels, the more there is noise. It is possible to reduce this noise by digital noise reduction algorithms but they always affect the other parts of the image as well.

As long as the sensor records signal that is above the read noise, the photon noise is the limiting form of noise, even upto exposure times of several minutes. The hot pixels and thermal dark noise can be removed by using a dark frame, which is how Canon cameras perform the long exposure noise reduction, or you can do that in postprocessing like astrophotographers do, using a master dark frame that is summed from several individual dark frames.

When you take underexposed images using a low ISO and then pull the exposure up in postprocessing, you see read noise. This is caused by the read circuitry for an individual pixel, the analog amplifiers and the analog to digital circuitry. The read noise is largest with low ISOs, so if shadow detail is important to you, increase the ISO upto the unity gain ISO. Also increasing the exposure just to the overexposure limit improves the situation.

Summary: there are several types of noise:
- shot noise, inherent in the signal, increases with low light and small sensels,
- hot pixels and thermal dark noise, can be removed with dark frames,
- read noise, a symptom of too much exposure compensation in post, can be reduced by increasing ISO and exposure time.

All kinds of noise can also be handled in post processing, but it is best to minimize it when capturing the image.

Check the thorough analysis done by Roger Clark at http://clarkvision.com/articles/index.html#part_4 to understand the last bits you can squeeze out of digital cameras. One particularily interesting page is http://clarkvision.com/articles/exposure_latitude-1/index.html as it shows that you can get slightly more than 10 stops of latitude from a 1D II when using RAW. This is in line with tests done by magazines, like the German Color Photo.

The point is that in order to get that 10 stops of dynamic range in use, you have to nail the exposure exactly. If you make an error of two stops from the perfect, you lose two stops from DR. Fortunately you very rarely need the full dynamic range in practical photography, and 6-7 stops is quite enough, giving you 3-4 stops of exposure latitude (i.e. margin or error without it being visible in the final image).



Dec 01, 2009 at 03:04 AM
irris
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p.2 #13 · Dynamic Range


I just got the 1dm3. When It comes to postprosessing to bring back DR. I think it is the best camera I've had. That includes 350d,20d,40d,50d,5d,5d2.

I was really surprised when I started tweaking the files and could see so how well the files agreed being pushed. Might just be a keeper this one.

Maybe it is because there is less resolution, so the pixels contain ...'more'?

Or maybe subjectivity has gotten the better of me.



Dec 01, 2009 at 03:46 AM
Yakim Peled
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p.2 #14 · Dynamic Range


cameron12x wrote:
+1. Agreed.

Another arbitrary example is a starting shutter speed of 1/60th (for extreme shadow detail), followed immediately by exposures of 1/500th (for mid-tones), and 1/4000th (for extreme highlight detail). Total exposure time: 1/53.

Frankly, I don't know why we don't already have this functionality. Simply have a HDR mode on the selector dial or via menu. Select the minimum required shutter speed for the subject matter (in order to eliminate motion blur), how many total exposures to be made, and the difference in stops between each exposure and then let the camera processor do the rest. The camera warns you
...Show more

IIANM Sony has such mode in one of their models.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.




Dec 01, 2009 at 04:13 AM
cameron12x
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p.2 #15 · Dynamic Range


Yakim Peled wrote:
IIANM Sony has such mode in one of their models.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.

Which Sony model? Do you have a link?



Dec 01, 2009 at 06:28 AM
Yakim Peled
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p.2 #16 · Dynamic Range


http://www.dpreview.com/news/0908/09082704sonya550a500.asp

"Creative options are broadened by new Auto HDR mode that captures a huge range of shadow and highlight detail in landscapes, interiors and other scenes. Previously accessible only to enthusiasts equipped with a tripod and image processing software, HDR (High Dynamic Range) is a specialist technique that combines two frames shot at different exposure settings. The A500 and A550 use powerful algorithms to combine and optimise two successive frames in less than 10 seconds, correcting any misalignment between frames when shooting handheld. The result is a single HDR image emulating the huge natural tonal range of human vision – with no PC or tripod needed."

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Dec 01, 2009 at 07:16 AM
cameron12x
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p.2 #17 · Dynamic Range


Thanks for the link... have you seen any reviews on these cameras, and write-ups on how well the HDR worked in the field?


Dec 01, 2009 at 07:35 AM
Yakim Peled
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p.2 #18 · Dynamic Range


There are several reviews on the web but I haven't found anything which tests this directly. I guess GINMF.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.




Dec 01, 2009 at 07:47 AM
cameron12x
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p.2 #19 · Dynamic Range


Darn. Would be nice to see this feature actually tested.

The fact that Sony actually implemented HDR in-camera (even with only two exposures) is indicative that in-camera HDR is needed and wanted in the marketplace.

Our small poll indicates the same.

Canon, are you listening?



Dec 01, 2009 at 07:51 AM
Pixel Perfect
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p.2 #20 · Dynamic Range


The double exposure trick is a poor man's way of getting better DR and is quite limited unless you need to use a tripod. I'd hope there would be real improvements at the hardware level that aim to improve the DR of a single capture.


Dec 01, 2009 at 08:14 AM
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