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Archive 2009 · 3-D "effect" from non pro bodies?

  
 
DavidP
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · 3-D "effect" from non pro bodies?


sarebro wrote:
Seems that with some lenses (zeiss comes to mind) the DOF falls of more abruptly then with other lenses.


I don't believe that.

If it were true, somebody could show controlled images with equivlant lenses of various manufacturers (using the same camera body, the same aperture, shutter speed, and ISO) and demonstrate this.



Nov 25, 2009 at 10:07 AM
DavidP
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · 3-D "effect" from non pro bodies?


saaketham wrote:
But, recently, someone made fun of my "AWESOME" 30D and that's what ticked me off.


Well, as long as you only claim your 30D is 2-1/2 D, we won't mind



Nov 25, 2009 at 10:08 AM
Ben Horne
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · 3-D "effect" from non pro bodies?


The difference is that you need a longer lens to get such a shallow DOF on a crop sensor. This also give a narrow angle of view. For the "3D" effect, it is best to use a fast prime lens that is not quite as wide. Throw an 85mm 1.2 on a full frame, and it's pure magic. Not only do you have the dreamy shallow DOF and buttery smooth background, but it's not a compressed narrow angle of view.


Nov 25, 2009 at 10:13 AM
Nick Nishizaka
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · 3-D "effect" from non pro bodies?


Another sample...granted with the 200L f2 IS.

http://nicksan.zenfolio.com/img/v1/p325146754-4.jpg




Nov 25, 2009 at 11:14 AM
saaketham
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · 3-D "effect" from non pro bodies?


^^ Beautiful ... that'd be awesome printed huge .. the colors are just heavenly, IMHO


Nov 25, 2009 at 11:17 AM
DavidP
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · 3-D "effect" from non pro bodies?


Ben Horne wrote:
The difference is that you need a longer lens to get such a shallow DOF on a crop sensor.


Or just get closer. Which usually gives a perspective, IMO, that would be more "3D" than a compressed telephoto shot.

IIRC, the difference in a cropped sensor and FF in terms of DOF is only about one stop, though.



Nov 25, 2009 at 11:38 AM
Lance Couture
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · 3-D "effect" from non pro bodies?


^^^

I'm diggin' the squirrel running across the path!



Nov 25, 2009 at 11:39 AM
mh2000
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · 3-D "effect" from non pro bodies?


I've seen some examples on the Alt board that show this effect to some degree... though mostly it comes from contrast and lighting IMO and not DOF... the Canon board is fixated on fastest L-lenses so the focus seems more on limited DOF than anything else, outside of Canon-land it seems to be something else. Like most lens properties, I think this "3-D effect" is a very secondary propertie... great photography trumps great lenses all the time.

DavidP wrote:
I don't believe that.

If it were true, somebody could show controlled images with equivlant lenses of various manufacturers (using the same camera body, the same aperture, shutter speed, and ISO) and demonstrate this.




Nov 25, 2009 at 12:04 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · 3-D "effect" from non pro bodies?


DavidP wrote:
I don't believe that.


You shouldn't believe it. It isn't true. What we describe as DOF is a basic optical phenomenon and not dependent on the brand or model of lens.

The bottom line answer to the OP's question (3-D effect from non pro bodies) might be: Whatever you might mean by "3D effect," it is no more or less available from so-called pro and so-called non-pro bodies.

These sorts of completely untested claims seem to be traceable back to a vague but hopeful notion that "if I buy the most expensive and/or most venerable brand name thing, it will be better in all possible ways than the less expensive/venerable thing."

Belief in that sort of stuff does not seem to me to be an indicator of photographic sophistication.

:-)

Dan

(A related notion is one that I'm occasionally guilty of: The longer the post on a topic the more authoritative and relevant it must be. "If you write a lot about a topic it must be because you know more about it." Sometimes it is more effective to use fewer words to say more.)

Edited on Nov 25, 2009 at 06:27 PM · View previous versions



Nov 25, 2009 at 03:16 PM
Nick Nishizaka
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · 3-D "effect" from non pro bodies?


I think it actually does have a lot to do with using DOF to isolate subjects in its entirety within the frame. I think the trick may be to have enough separation from the front and back of the subject to achieve enough isolation to give it dimensionality. (Huh? What did I just say? )

So in the case of this one I posted a few posts ago with the cyclist, it was shot on a 5DMKII with the 135L wide open. You have the road to the front and rear of the cyclist diffused (more so to the rear than the front). Perhaps the vignetting I have added in post helps accentuate things as well. You can also see the cyclist is crisp vs. the blurred out BG.

http://nicksan.zenfolio.com/img/v0/p42806425-5.jpg


A couple more samples...

http://nicksan.zenfolio.com/img/v1/p226245605-5.jpg

http://nicksan.zenfolio.com/img/v0/p184383486-5.jpg

http://nicksan.zenfolio.com/img/v4/p210585787-5.jpg

http://nicksan.zenfolio.com/img/v0/p560008470-5.jpg

http://nicksan.zenfolio.com/img/v5/p113970012-5.jpg



Nov 25, 2009 at 04:03 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · 3-D "effect" from non pro bodies?


I'm not sure what people even mean by "3D effect."

If it is subject isolation via DOF control, you can do that with just about any camera. If it is subject isolation or an effect of depth due to compositional decisions regarding subject placement, relative positions of complex/simple elements, color, luminosity, etc. these have essentially nothing to do with which camera you use. If it is something about exaggeration of depth due to using a wide angle lens, this isn't related to camera choice.

Whatever "3D effect" is, your ability to create it is not going to depend on whether you shoot a 1Dsm3, a 5D2, a 5D, a 7D, a XT, or something else.

Edited on Nov 25, 2009 at 05:26 PM · View previous versions



Nov 25, 2009 at 05:25 PM
cgardner
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · 3-D "effect" from non pro bodies?


In real life we get many of the clues about shape from our stereo vision, but photography is based on optical illusion; tricking the brain into thinking a 2D pattern of contrast represents a 3D object. There are many forms of contrast: tone, color, relative sharpness, relative size, etc. and the brain relies on them all to match the patterns it sees with the memories of stored objects.

Human perception is an interest of mine and something I've studied outside of the narrow confines of photography. It starts with an understanding of the physiology of the eye. The color sensing cones are concentrated in the center 2 degrees of our FOV - about twice the width of a thumb held at arms length - and their sensitivity is more analogous to the "a" and "b" channels of an Lab file than an RGB file. The balance of the retina is covered with rods which are only sensitive to a relatively narrow range of blue/green light. They are also about 3000x more sensitive than the cones. That physiology explains why red lights are used on ships at night and why at night you notice movement out the corners of your vision before you notice it in the center.

Because the color sensing cells are in the center of the FOV the brain tends to tune out everything in the periphery, a form of tunnel vision. We don't consciously think about the shallow DOF our eyes have because the eye darts around and our short-term subconscious memory stitches together the small focused snippets into the perception of a panorama which seems to be entirely in focus and ideally exposed.

When shallow DOF is used in a photograph it mimics the way the brain tunes out all the less important stuff. It sends a subliminal clue to the brain of the viewer that the sharper stuff is more important and will pull attention to it. The fact the rods are much more sensitive means that bright contrasting (with the background) areas on the edges of a photo can be very distracting and pull attention off what is in the center.

One of the reasons the rule of thirds works very effectively when a dynamic feeling is desired in a photo is because it will tend to pull the eye of the viewer across the 2/3rds of the photo containing the less important details, but then show relatively little space beyond the main center of interest. It tends to produce an ideal buffer of "negative" space which stops the movement of the eye across the frame on what is intended to be the center of interest. Still photos which cause the eye to move across the frame that way evoke a sensation of movement in the mind of the viewer: if you trace a path in photo you feel as if you've walked down it. The flip-side of the ROT is centered static image, which keeps the viewer focused in the center because there's no clue where to go next, left or right. Off center horizontal crops of headshots don't work very effectively in the compositional sense because the "negative" space is so large it tempts the viewer off the face to go look at it, causing the last conscious thought to be "Wow! Great Bokeh..." instead of "What compelling eyes!"

Its really not about following rules or breaking them, simply understanding the cause and effect of image placement in the frame on perception, both physiologically and emotionally. The process of vision is mostly one of pattern matching. There are specialized part of the temporal lobe, the Fusiform Gyrus which a dedicated to remembering faces and familiar objects and connecting the images with emotional reactions. Its part of way strangers will react to to a photo put up for C&C differently and often more objectively than the photographer who took in and has first hand knowledge of the subject and also emotional connections to the act of taking it.

The strongest clues about 3D shape come from tonal contrast. One of the more interesting jobs I had was making maps at National Geographic. I'd take the hand-drawn relief plates created in pencil by the cartographic artist and create halftones and color separations. In the case of simple B&W relief plates the artist would simply draw the shadows the mountains would cast when the sun was at a 45 degree angle. That's enough to fool the brain into thinking there are 3D mountains on the map. Short lighting a face works in a similar way for same reason. Placing the key light 45 degrees from the nose and above the eye line causes the shadow of the nose to fall along the base of the nose and over the top of the nostril, covering about 1/2 of it. Our brains, seeing the shadow, can infer the shape of the nose more accurately that with other patterns. That's why a short lit face looks more "real" and 3D than a face lit with most other patterns.

But the strongest illusion of 3D shape in a photo occurs when the strongest light hits the object from behind and the camera shoots into the shadow side. Just consider how the moon looks in its phases: flat when flat lit, but like a sphere when the light hits from behind. A good exercise for someone seeking to understand the relationship of light angle and shape is to take an object like an egg, illuminate it with a single light, then walk 360 degrees around it taking a photo every 15 degrees.

http://super.nova.org/TP/Egg.jpg

The conventional four-light portrait set-up addresses the need to create spacial separation and define shape with contrast. The foundation is fill, necessary because the camera can't record the full range of contrast in a 3D scene lit with a single-source:

http://super.nova.org/TP/LE01.jpg

In nature the fill comes from the sky and wraps around everything 360 degrees. The closest practical equivalent indoor is to place the fill over the camera where it will illuminate every nook and cranny the camera sees. Fill placed to the side will create shadows and result in unfilled voids.

On a dark background a separate light is used to create visual separation...
http://super.nova.org/TP/LE02.jpg

The need for a background light can be eliminated by simply selecting a lighter background and letting the fall-out from the fill illuminate it.

The "key" light overlapping the fill creates the illusion of shape. The perception of the light and object being "hard" or "soft" is a clue the brain gets mainly from the tone of the shadows. The darker the shadows (a function of the fill) the harder the lighting will become. I learned this back in the 1970s shooting weddings with two direct flashes. Precise placement of the key light relative to the face at 45 degrees created flattering short lighting pattern, and making that pattern seem "soft" was simply a matter of independently adding fill to reveal the detail in the shadows.

http://super.nova.org/TP/LE03.jpg

The placement of the key light at 45 degrees from the nose is cause and effect photographers learned by trial and error. There's no "rule" it simply a common sense solution based on the need to get light into the recessed eyes and model the nose in a natural but non distracting way. Like the map relief, lighting a still life subject at a 45 degree angle will mimic the angle of objects seen outdoors in the morning and afternoon (10 and 2 o'clock) and will make the shape of the objects be perceived more "naturally". But as mentioned the strongest illusion of 3D comes when an object is back-lit, so the addition of a "hair" or rim-light component its the forth ingredient in a coventional four-light scenario.

http://super.nova.org/TP/LE04.jpg

The "magic" thing about the photographic process is that when both the shadows and highlights are both exposed optimally, all the tones in-between fall perfectly into place because the process is engineered to create a linear perceptual response. "Zone 5" middle gray always falls between white and black perceptually. What changes with various media -- B&W neg, color neg, color transparency, digital - is the overall dynamic range measured in f/stops between the point where highlight detail is retained naturally and the camera can no longer resolve the shadow detail.

Its trivial to match the range of a scene to the sensor indoors with artificial light by starting with enough fill to record the darkest shadows, then adding other overlapping lights from different angles to create "key" and "accent highlights as illustrated above. Outdoors the problem is different because in most situations the ambient lighting exceeds the range of the sensor. But the lessons learned indoors about controlling contrast to create a realistic full tonal range can be applied outdoors.

Recording a full tonal range outdoors starts with keeping the ambient highlights under clipping. That takes a leap of faith like bungie jumping because in a cross-lit scene exposed for highlight detail will look like this:

http://super.nova.org/TP/DR_Backlight.jpg

The midtones and shadows are rendered darker than normal in that 20D shot exposed to retain detail in the white highlights because the range of the scene exceeded the range of the sensor. But shooting into the shadow side of the ambient light, with minimal overlap, allows flash to be used to lift the shadow side INDEPENDENTLY.

http://super.nova.org/TP/DR_FlashFill.jpg

That independent alteration of the shadow side of the ambient lighting is what allows the foreground to be lifted to where it is in perceptual balance with the background. The flash actually doesn't "fill" in the technical sense because it creates highlights over the top of the fill from the sky and the parts of the face and body not hit by the flash will have about the same tone as it did before the flash was added as illustrated in this single flash outdoor shot.

http://super.nova.org/TP/BelenBacklitEyes.jpg

The illusion of 3D in the face in that single flash outdoor shot is created by the contrast between the flash created highlights and the sky-lit shadows. Its easier to see the pattern when the image is blurred..

http://super.nova.org/TP/BelenBacklitBlur.jpg

I selected the river as the background so the white sweatshirt wouldn't distract from the face and used the natural rim light to define the shape. I relied on the flash to create a flattering highlight pattern of the face - pretty much a no-brainer with a flash bracket and a full-face pose. Combined the overall effect of the contrasting dark hair and pattern of highlights within the frame of the hair would hopefully guide the eye of the viewer to the face and hold the attention there because there aren't any other distractions.

http://super.nova.org/TP/TwoStages.jpg

When shooting outdoors I always have a flash on a bracket on the camera and look for opportunities to put the sun behind the subjects because I know: 1) its the only way technically to match scene to sensor and get a full range of tone, and 2) it creates the strongest illusion of 3D in a 2D photo. The bracket is a critical element because it is the downward angle of the flash which makes the light it contribute look more natural by mimicking the angle of natural light at 10 or 2 o-clock..

http://super.nova.org/TP/FillFlashOutdoors1.jpg
http://super.nova.org/TP/FillFlashOutdoors2.jpg
http://super.nova.org/TP/FillFlashOutdoors3.jpg
http://super.nova.org/TP/LilleyDock.jpg
http://super.nova.org/TP/LilleyMotor.jpg
http://super.nova.org/TP/InsectFly.jpg
http://super.nova.org/TP/InsectMantis.jpg
http://super.nova.org/TP/InsectSpider.jpg

Pro body? All the shots above where taken with a 5MP Minolta D7Hi. The ones below where taken with my 20D:

http://super.nova.org/TP/Longwood1.jpg
http://super.nova.org/TP/Longwood2.jpg
http://super.nova.org/TP/MC06.jpg
http://super.nova.org/TP/10mm_ReflectingPool.jpg
http://super.nova.org/TP/10mm_NatHist.jpg
http://super.nova.org/TP/154.jpg
http://super.nova.org/TP/WTcake1.jpg
http://super.nova.org/TP/BRLogoGear.jpg
http://super.nova.org/TP/BR_Golf_0350.jpg
http://super.nova.org/TP/BR_Aceman1.jpg
http://super.nova.org/TP/BBB_Apples4.jpg

It's not the gear, its knowing how to fool the brain of the viewer with contrasting tone, color, sharpness, etc...

Chuck










Edited on Nov 25, 2009 at 05:30 PM · View previous versions



Nov 25, 2009 at 05:25 PM
mh2000
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · 3-D "effect" from non pro bodies?


if you took my 135SF and my friend's 135L and shot the same subject, both at f2.8 the 135L will show a little more "pop" and "3-D effect," I've seen it... hasn't made me go out and buy the L, but there is some effect that is more than just DOF. The combination of sharpness, micro contrast, color and bokeh gives the L a better look. It doesn't make me less happy with my 135SF, but I'm not going to pretend that in this case that the L isn't any better.


Nov 25, 2009 at 05:27 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · 3-D "effect" from non pro bodies?


Here is a review of a Zeiss 100 f/2 planar that is worth reading as the author discusses exactly the topic of this thread in particular on the second page he has a section "Getting that 3D Look"


http://www.pebbleplace.com/Personal/Contax_100mm_Planar_Pt_II.html



Nov 25, 2009 at 05:40 PM
saaketham
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · 3-D "effect" from non pro bodies?


mh2000 wrote:
if you took my 135SF and my friend's 135L and shot the same subject, both at f2.8 the 135L will show a little more "pop" and "3-D effect," I've seen it... hasn't made me go out and buy the L, but there is some effect that is more than just DOF. The combination of sharpness, micro contrast, color and bokeh gives the L a better look. It doesn't make me less happy with my 135SF, but I'm not going to pretend that in this case that the L isn't any better.


Makes sense ... but does the camera body make a difference?



Nov 25, 2009 at 05:50 PM
Me_XMan
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · 3-D "effect" from non pro bodies?


I agree.

DavidP wrote:
There is no such thing as a 3D effect.

If there is, somebody could actually define it.




Nov 25, 2009 at 05:52 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · 3-D "effect" from non pro bodies?


cgardner wrote:
In real life we get many of the clues...

Chuck


Your post undoubtedly took a great deal of time and effort to produce. I think that it might be worthwhile for you to post it - and the many, many illustrations - on a blog and link out to it, especially since it goes well beyond the context of the question being discussed here: "Is there a different '3D effect' from so-called pro and non-pro bodies."

Free and serviceable blog hosting is available from services such as blogspot.com.

I have found this to be a useful strategy for responding to some questions that are asked frequently - e.g. I answer once, post at my blog, and link.

Dan



Nov 25, 2009 at 06:31 PM
mh2000
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · 3-D "effect" from non pro bodies?


I doubt the camera body makes a difference, but I have seen direct comparisons of lenses on the Alt board and some do give a little more "pop" and "3-D effect" to my eye and while I can't put a number to it, I also cannot put a number on Bokeh quality either... we're talking subjective qualities here... which does not make them non-existent (interestingly, some of the same people saying that 3-D effect does not exist will acknowledge that some lenses produce better bokeh... ).

I for one have never cared much about the 3-D effect attributed to lenses, but do not say that it doesn't exist. It's all just words and different lenses give different looks... so whether you call it "pop" or a "3-D effect," it's just an attempt to provide some descriptive means of discussing a subjective property.



Nov 25, 2009 at 06:35 PM
DavidP
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · 3-D "effect" from non pro bodies?


mh2000 wrote:
(interestingly, some of the same people saying that 3-D effect does not exist will acknowledge that some lenses produce better bokeh... ).


That's because I've seen reasonable explanations and examples of what bokeh is. I've seen side-by-side comparisons of bokeh from similar lenses.

Never heard of seen such a thing on the elusive "3-D effect".



Nov 25, 2009 at 06:59 PM
DavidP
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p.4 #20 · p.4 #20 · 3-D "effect" from non pro bodies?


cgardner wrote:
Because the color sensing cells are in the center of the FOV the brain tends to tune out everything in the periphery, a form of tunnel vision. We don't consciously think about the shallow DOF our eyes have because the eye darts around and our short-term subconscious memory stitches together the small focused snippets into the perception of a panorama which seems to be entirely in focus and ideally exposed.

When shallow DOF is used in a photograph it mimics the way the brain tunes out all the less important stuff.


Again, just an example of "subject isolation", or DOF-control.

For me to think a picture is "3-D" would probably require that the photo adjust its focal plane depending on where I look in the photo.



Nov 25, 2009 at 07:03 PM
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