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Archive 2009 · Is it worth it??

  
 
MuratH
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p.1 #1 · Is it worth it??


Hi guys,

I'm planning to buy some lights. Using it on location, but mostly in studio. The travel packs are very costly now, so won't be really looking at them. My question is is the price difference between Profot/Bowens/Elinchrom really worth it?

From my point of views Bowens seems to be made more sturdy and think I'll choose it over the Elinchrom..

Though the Profoto.. Mucho Pesos!!

Profoto 2*500 set is around 2300 euro's (around 3300 dollar)
Bowens 2*500 set (including stands etc etc) 1750 euro's (around 2500 dollar(

And is it worth it to buy 1000 w/s flashes? Or should I start lower at 500 w/s? My opinion is buy quality and power and add later.. Though is the Profot much and much better than Bowens?

IS it WORTH it?

And is 1000 w/s not too much with todays ISO capabilities like of a D700?



Nov 21, 2009 at 07:07 AM
PeterBerressem
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p.1 #2 · Is it worth it??


Personal choice...I'd get the Bowens 500 pro over the Profoto (D1 assumed). 500Ws per head are good allrounders. Btw, the Bowens 2*500r kit at Calumet is € 1280 . Wex have also good prices: www.wexcameras.de/product/default.aspx?sku=1032872

Edited on Nov 21, 2009 at 08:51 AM · View previous versions



Nov 21, 2009 at 08:36 AM
316shooter
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p.1 #3 · Is it worth it??


There is no simple answer to the question. It all depends on your specific needs, preference, and usage for lighting. If you are primarily photographing people, something in the 500ws range should be plenty of power. You can always add as needed. Most often with people photography, I am powering way down.

Bowens, Profoto, Elinchrom, etc are all excellent brands and will serve you well. For me, the Profoto line was worth the investment for several reasons. Mainly the huge range of modifiers, and the rubber collar mount which is very fast and stable. They also make great battery units, as well as a/c. That is true of most other brands as well. But I felt Profoto was the most durable, reliable system for my use. It's a long-term investment, and I have been very happy with them after years of false starts with various other brands. All that said, it's all very subjective. I know many shooters who make great livings with White Lightning, Dynalite, Elinchrom, Balcar, etc. All those people swear by their gear. So really it boils down to your specific needs, financial situation, etc.

Good luck



Nov 21, 2009 at 08:50 AM
Gregg Heckler
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p.1 #4 · Is it worth it??


I'm an Elinchrom guy but Bowens seem to be made well and have lots of modifier choices. A few of the reasons I didn't choose Bowens are these, no cooling fans, and the mounting bracket. It's well built but mounts the light too high so if you are trying to get your lights low it's harder.

Edited on Nov 21, 2009 at 07:18 PM · View previous versions



Nov 21, 2009 at 10:53 AM
hollow4
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p.1 #5 · Is it worth it??


The only one who is going to be able to answer the question is you. I suggest putting it into a spread sheet. List out every possible thing you could need. If you need 2 heads then list out prices and combo's with two heads, list out modifiers you want to start with and then what you think you might need. I am doing this now trying to develop my business plan. I have priced out 2400 watt Profoto Acute 2 pack to the Elinchrom Ranger RX and i figured i would need at least 4 heads and over 4000 total watt seconds. The Profoto and Elinchrom were surprisingly close in cost.

I also am going to take a look at what I can rent in the major markets in the states and in Europe. This means that I want to buy into something that can be easily accessible when traveling. Then there is the day rate of the equipment when renting. That's a passed on cost to a client and if i own it i can rent it from me and recoup more money. At this point is a break even analysis on how many times I need to rent it to myself.

So there is a lot that goes into making decisions on your gear. I suggest you take an all encompassing approach and look at the places you think might go and and how easy is it to rent, switch, and upgrade. I dont know what the Bowens line has for packs but if this is something you want to get into in the future then that should weigh on your decision now. Your not buying lights, your buying into a system.

Good Luck



Nov 21, 2009 at 01:36 PM
dazey
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p.1 #6 · Is it worth it??


Some reasons I can see to go profoto over Bowens
-I believe the bowens is an analogue flash (although has digital controls), as such it has a greater colour variance of +/-300˚k. You might care about this if you have one unit in a big modifier at full output, and another using a simple reflector at minimum output. In this case you might see a colour shift between the two lights.
-Remote control capability of D1
-Greater range of adjustment in terms of light output
-Profoto range of modifiers and excellent mount system (although as a negative, profoto isn't cheap)
-slightly faster recycle time.



Nov 21, 2009 at 01:59 PM
howardm4
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p.1 #7 · Is it worth it??


isn't 'renting to yourself' borderline ethical? I understand lease-back from someone else but in fact, you own the equipment


Nov 21, 2009 at 02:06 PM
PeterBerressem
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p.1 #8 · Is it worth it??


dazey wrote:
Some reasons I can see to go profoto over Bowens
-I believe the bowens is an analogue flash (although has digital controls), as such it has a greater colour variance of +/-300˚k.

.... greater than Profoto? Why? Their power switching takes place in the same way. What in fact do you mean by 'analogue'?



Nov 21, 2009 at 02:41 PM
dazey
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p.1 #9 · Is it worth it??


PeterBerressem wrote:
.... greater than Profoto? Why? Their power switching takes place in the same way. What in fact do you mean by 'analogue'?

Because I believe that the bowens does not do any power switching (being what I believe is an analogue device). The profoto D1 is the first profoto monoblock to do digital power switching. Due to the massive currents involved, power switching during the discharge is difficult/expensive. I think the bowens is more like the old profoto compacts. The bowens is probably controlling flash power by capacitor switching and/or by changing capacitor voltage.



Nov 21, 2009 at 03:43 PM
dazey
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p.1 #10 · Is it worth it??


To explain a bit more about analogue vs. digital. The way a flash works is that you charge up a capacitor to about 600v. In an analogue flash the capacitor is basically wired straight across the tube. The tube does not conduct in its base state. If you apply a very large voltage to the surface of the tube glass, this causes the gas inside to ionise, at which point it becomes a very low impedance. At this point all the energy in the capacitor is dumped into the tube making light. The currents during this process are in the thousands of amps, more than most transistors etc. can handle.
To control the output, traditionally you either switch the amount of storage (amount of capacitors), the voltage to which they are charged, or limit the current by putting resistors in the circuit.
Small hotshoe flashes have managed to do digital control by using IGBTs to cut the discharge while it is happening. They have much lower peak currents of about 200A. The new range of digital studio strobes can also do this (examples being, Profoto d1, d4, Pro8a, Alien Bee Einstein (when they come out), Broncolor packs)



Nov 21, 2009 at 03:49 PM
PeterBerressem
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p.1 #11 · Is it worth it??


You obviously misinterpreted what you read in Profoto's PR excerpts. The quoted 'power switching' refers to the charging process, not to output regulation. The D1 are voltage regulated like any old monobloc. Broncolor is at present the only studio flash mfg who uses IGBT control.


Nov 21, 2009 at 04:13 PM
dazey
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p.1 #12 · Is it worth it??


Interesting, I clearly misinterpreted.


Nov 21, 2009 at 04:19 PM
hollow4
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p.1 #13 · Is it worth it??


howardm4 wrote:
isn't 'renting to yourself' borderline ethical? I understand lease-back from someone else but in fact, you own the equipment


How is it not ethical.

Lets say the cost of renting a light is $200/day and you charge 10% on top of all rentals for admin fees. Then lets say the day rate is a $1,000. The bill to the client would be $1,220 and you keep $1,020.

Now lets assume same job but you own the lights and dont charge a rental fee or usage. Your day rate is a $1,00, that's what you get, and you have to pay for the lights, the repairs on the lights, the modifiers, the bulbs, the insurance on the loss of the lights. lets say wear and tear add up to $150 per light per shoot. now your take home is 850. you are actually worse off by $170.

Now lets assume you rent your lighting to yourself, or you include a usage fee in your bid. your day rate is 1000, your usage fee is 190 per light per day. your bid to your client is less than the original rental rate, at $1,190, which is a savings of $30. Now lets look at the wear and tear cost, 150 but you charged $190, so you made $40 by using your light. Your take home is now $1,040.

How about looking at it this way. You have two camera's that you use, one is 1ds mkIII and a Phase One p65+. One being $6,112 and the other being above $40,000. Would you charge the same thing for using the different camera's? I wouldn't. So if you have the same client who has two different needs, one is a brochure and the other is a series of extremely large prints (which you print on your Epson 9900). The Canon is the clear choice for the brochure photos, you dont need the massive resolution. The Phase for the large prints, you need every pixel you can get. Clearly the cost are different for each job, and you need to price accordingly. It doesnt make sense to change your day rate, that would be a massive red flag to someone reviewing your bids. Instead change your equipment rates, this spells out your cost to the client, they have a breakdown of how you got your number, its comparable from bid to bid that you give them. They dont know your actual cost, but you do. You can charge as much or as little of a premium as you want. Think of it as a profit center. Your gear should earn you money, not just cost you money, otherwise whats the point.

Don't mistake good business and billing for the appropriate things in the appropriate way as being unethical. By buying and then renting/charging you adjust your billing to be lower than if you rented but increase your take home pay at the end of the day your a success. But if you buy great stuff and dont adjust accordingly you will eventually hurt your take home pay. You may make money, but your missing opportunity, so in some respects your failing. Dont think of this as your screwing someone. Instead think of it as you are charging appropriately and breaking it out for them. In essence you are renting your gear to yourself.

Hope this helps. Remember though you need to charge appropriately and it needs to be easily identifiable.



Nov 21, 2009 at 04:43 PM





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