And talking about the dpreview forums, the D70 forum is worth a visit if one is in need of some light relief. Absolute pandemonium there. I dare you to post something on the "moire issue". I did, and survived. Barely
This thread really interests me as Moire was one problem I didn't expect the D70 to have.
I've shot 1000's of pics with a Canon D60 and whilst I've seen Moire on the LCD a few times and even seen it on the monitor when processing shots I haven't actually had many cases of Moire on real printouts - especially at A4 and above. -- Probably lost around 15 shots in 5,000 so not a problem and it's very repeatable and predictable.
With the current level of technology in DSLR's this is one problem I'm very surprised at reading here.
As far as CA is concerned -- it's usually pretty easy to fix in Photoshop CS -- even from quite horrible cases.
Just on your picture move the sliders until the colours merge on the Histogram -- screen shot of severe CA histogram and PS shown below.
(You can also adjust for a certain amount of Lens vignetting as well if you need to).
Yeah it's a real darn shame that this camera has this problem which although is limited to specific subjects that you shoot is still annoying and unreliable in every sense possible.
I was about to purchase the camera, but now I am holding off until there is a fix (not a 2nd rated software fix, but a hardware one or firmware) or there is a better camera out there to get (might go with a canon if they release a 10d replacement within a fair amount of time)
1D MK II -- amazing to see so many people denigrating pics from the 1D MK II before the wretched thing has even been out a week and RAW conversion software isn't universally available yet.
I was hoping for better from the D70 -- as I am really interested in seeing what Nikon will come up with to compete against the 1D MK II and of course the 1Ds.
The prognosis from the D70 doesn''t look good -- as a pro I can work with virtually ANY sort of equipment cheap or expensive but it must perform PREDICTABLY.
Whatever the limitations a piece of equipment has I could probably get round it in some way or another if at all possible -- but if it behaves unpredictably -- then that's a real no no.
I just hope they get their act together before the new Pro DSLR is launched.
I dont understand why this issue is getting soooooo blown out of porportion. as well all know, NO digital camera is perfect and yes, I will bet you $100 that even when the almighty 1DKII comes out that there will be something wrong with it as well. its the nature of the beast.
think about it. just the few digital cameras that have came out has had something wrong:
10D -focussing issues
Digital Rebel - same focussing issues
Sony 828 - CA/PFring issues
(thats just to name a few....)
-The point is, we can either learn to work around these quirks and be happy or we can vow never to buy another digital camera until its perfect. (in that case, good luck cuz you're gonna be waiting for a long time....)
*on a side note*
if the whole moire thing is all that I have to be worried about with my D70 then thats just fine by me. I have yet to experience it in any of my shots but if/when I do then thats something that I'll worry about when it happens. but until then, I'm gonna continue to be tickled pink over my new camera purchase and enjoy it as much as I can.
ozziegn wrote:
-The point is, we can either learn to work around these quirks...
Whilst I am happy for you that *you* have no moire problems, I think you are totally missing the point ozziegn.
Quirks? Hmmmm... You can only work around something that it is *predictable*. As has been shown here and elsewhere, you never know when moire will strike. Just keep looking over your shoulder
Cripes, I have, amongst other cameras, a relatively cheap Canon G3 and I have never come across the moire issue with it. Now why should I accept it on a machine that for all intents and puposes is so much better?
ozziegn wrote:
if the whole moire thing is all that I have to be worried about with my D70 then thats just fine by me. I have yet to experience it in any of my shots but if/when I do then thats something that I'll worry about when it happens. but until then, I'm gonna continue to be tickled pink over my new camera purchase and enjoy it as much as I can.
I'll quote my own words.
so I'll leave my last post in this thread with this thought in mind cuz I'm not gonna sit here and bicker about this and bicker about that when I havent had anything to b*tch at about my particular camera.
the answer is obvious. buy the camera and try her out. take a billion pics of road signs, peoples' shirts (front and back) and pillow cases and bed sheets if it helps to ease any possible worries that you might/may have after seeing this thread. if your camera does fine, then by all means enjoy it. otherwise, the solution is VERY SIMPLE: just return the d@mn thing and carry on with your life like you did before.
you know, its not like the world is coming to an end or anything like that.
cmacclel wrote:
Ozzy do you really think this is blown out of proportion?
Yuk. I feel quite dizzy But thanks for posting this.
I just wish Nikon would be a bit more up-front about this issue and tell us what they are going to do about it, now having admitted to the problem. The "solution" offered on their website is simply pathetic and unprofessional.
I, like a few others here, there, and everywhere, am *very* keen on the camera but will not buy it with the way things are at the moment.
The exact effect plaguing the letters in those signs can be seen in the D70 resolution test chart...the same colors, the same artifacts.
I've seen these kinds of artifacts, the so-called maze or mosaic artifacts, in my own photos. The plague things like tree branches, lettering, and other fine details. Furthermore both the maze/mosaic artifacts and the color moire is clearly visible in the D70 resolution test chart shots, the maze patterns are quite obvious if viewed at 200%. Comparing the resolution test chart for the D70 to charts from every other camera shows that these problems are most pronounced in the D70, more so than any make/model digital camera that preceded it.
It is worth noting that the D2h resolution test chart creates a much cleaner, grid-like pattern in its resolution test sample. Take out a some parts of that grid and you end up with the maze/mosaic pattern of the D70. Obviously Nikon has both a new AA filter and a new bayer-interpolation algorythm. The D1x is also prone to creating this grid pattern, but only in the vertical reolution test, and at lower frequencies. It seems to work well on the D2h, and was not a problem for me on the D1x except for the occasional stair-stepped diagonal line, but not so well on the D70. I suppose the pattern qualifies as "pre-extinction" detail, so the cameras will score higher in resoltuion tests, but I wouldn't call it "strong detail" by any means.
D70, kit lens @ 35mm - this is the worst of the bunch, and mirrors what I've seen go wrong in D70 shots, when moire gets you. I think the kit lens (18-70mm) may somehow make moire worse: www.pbase.com/image/27307772/original.jpg
with the overexposed 300D shot (kit lens, 35mm) here: www.pbase.com/image/27307780/original.jpg
Which brings up another point that needs examining: at the same ISO and shutter speed the D70 seems to produce a darker image. Some have noted its tendency to underexpose...logical because the D70 has very little highlight headroom in RAW. I'm wondering if the ISO 200 rating is for real? Perhaps the D70 is a bit less sensitive than advertised? I guess we'll have to wait for formal tests to find out.
Sectarian wrote:
I'm wondering if the ISO 200 rating is for real?
This is pretty easy to find out ... simply grab a meter and compare the readings. I used to find a lot of digicam ISO800 ratings are actually ISO640 or even lower.
sdai wrote:
This is pretty easy to find out ... simply grab a meter and compare the readings. I used to find a lot of digicam ISO800 ratings are actually ISO640 or even lower.
How sad! I really liked this camera the first time I picked it up. I went as far as to recommend it to my girlfriend, who will be needing a dSLR a little later this year to pursue her own photographic interests. That's a pretty substantial endorsement I think, considering that she would not have access to my Canon L's. But that's how much I preferred the 'feel' of the camera over comparable Canon EF offerings; the Digital rebel is a JOKE compared to the D70.
But based on test shots that I am seeing here and elsewhere, this seems like an issue that is very difficult to get full control of, because you never know where it will strike.
That's a damn shame. I really hope that Nikon has a solution for this soon. Regardless of all the AF nonsense that went around regarding the 10D serties cameras, few could besmirch their superb imaging characteristics. This moire/image capture issue on the D70 seems far more serious, and Nikon's response will be a very telling indicator of their ability to compete with other companies in this market segment.
There is an interesting discussion thread at Nikonian.org that seems to describe the problem with theory and practical examples, and also includes some ideas for dealing with it - my least favorite being to use lens that is not as sharp. The more practical is using upper or lower range of f-stops.
kyle wrote:
This thread really interests me as Moire was one problem I didn't expect the D70 to have.
I've shot 1000's of pics with a Canon D60 and whilst I've seen Moire on the LCD a few times and even seen it on the monitor when processing shots I haven't actually had many cases of Moire on real printouts - especially at A4 and above. -- Probably lost around 15 shots in 5,000 so not a problem and it's very repeatable and predictable.
With the current level of technology in DSLR's this is one problem I'm very surprised at reading here.
As far as CA is concerned -- it's usually pretty easy to fix in Photoshop CS -- even from quite horrible cases.
Just on your picture move the sliders until the colours merge on the Histogram -- screen shot of severe CA histogram and PS shown below.
(You can also adjust for a certain amount of Lens vignetting as well if you need to).
Edited by kyle on Mar 31, 2004 at 11:33 AM GMT...Show more →
Kyle -
Generally I agree that CA is an easy fix - aside from ACR, options include the Debarrelizer plug-in (www.theimaging-factory.com), Panorama Tools, and Picture Window. However the Nikon kit lens for the D70 (18-70mm DX) has an unusual distortion characteristic, and attempts to correct CA in that lens are frustrated by the fact that correcting it in one area of the image results in CA in other areas.
Well that just sucks. I was hoping the D70 would do good by Nikon. We shall see if they come up with a good fix here soon.
Mark, looks like you might want to head towards a medium format camera with a digital back. Larger detail and less of a moire problem. Or you might want to try the Olympus E-1. I have been using it for a month now doing both interior and exterior shots with out any moire, CA or blooming problems.
if they release a 10d replacement within a fair amount of time)
