If Paul Buff's sense of his company's position in the US market for new sales of electronic flash gear ("65%") is accurate, he isn't in a niche, it's everyone else : Profoto, Speedotron, Dynalite, Elinchrom, Broncolor, Hensel, Norman, Photogenic, that are in the niches.
These are just tools, we are discussing not religions, although so called "fanboys" of every brand of everything sold in a marketplace like to act otherwise.
I wantto point out one last thing before I leave this thread for good.
Pauf Buff's transparency about what his plans are for the Einstein have been crystal clear to his competitors for a very long time now. Have they started working on similar projects at a similar price point? He doesn't have a monopoly on the technology.
Or are they content to ceed even more of the market to him?
And if that is the case, why? Are they merely hoping he fails?
JPrimgaard wrote: I'd like to see how the naysayers would do in Paul's shoes.
It's so easy to throw stones, let's see what those folks have created under similar circumstances.
As stated, don't like it, vote with your dollars. Talk is cheap, criticism is even cheaper.
Interesting. Are you holding the people who say positive things about Paul to the same standard? Frankly, I'm not criticizing Paul. I'm being critical of folks who are blindly falling all over themselves to promote his so-called virtues simply by having a presence on this board. Paul's mentality about running business has been clearly stated by Paul himself many times on this board, and it's become a looping conversation that's become very tired.
What would appear to be basic common sense in regards to placing a product in the market seems to elude many on this board. Personally, I have no interest in whether Paul fails or suceeds. It matters not a wit. I wish him well and hope that he and his employees prosper. It appears that Einstein will be a nice light for the price - but no one will really know that until it comes out and is battle-tested.
There's a constant need on here by many to blindly defend Paul in spite of extremely questionable decisions. People take offense if anything he says or does is called into question, and one has to wonder why he would need such devout protection. He's come on this forum to talk about his products, answer questions, and that's fine. But simply doing so does not afford him sainthood from his many foibles.
E-Vener wrote:
If Paul Buff's sense of his company's position in the US market for new sales of electronic flash gear ("65%") is accurate, he isn't in a niche, it's everyone else : Profoto, Speedotron, Dynalite, Elinchrom, Broncolor, Hensel, Norman, Photogenic, that are in the niches.
I'll respectfully disagree. As I noted in my original post, he offers his products as a very particular price point that is decidedly different than the price point of the manufacturers you have referenced above. I'd consider the target market of potential buyers of AB products and Profoto products (by way of examople) to be different markets.
A CEO's job is to take responsibility for the problems the company he/she represents. Not point at the suddenly hill employees nor the suppliers to buy or justify time. When is this CEO ever wrong? There is only one person responsible for the delay. In a way the product was announced over 2 years ago. This project has changed shape and name many time and was apparently improperly planned (or may be it was planned that way?). We are all way too aware of the entire Einstein story almost live across the forum to not come to this. The rest is what it is and the product will turn out eventually, but there is only one person responsible for the good and bad here. I've seen somewhere where Paul wrote that the product should be more expensive for his company to make the profit he wanted. The transparency is great, but attempting to keep the cost low seem to me the real #1 factor for the delays and changes not the suppliers, the clients or the employees.
The product look like its going to be great. I like my bees but I'm growing tired of all the non sense around the new ones
Matt Dunn wrote:
I'll respectfully disagree. As I noted in my original post, he offers his products as a very particular price point that is decidedly different than the price point of the manufacturers you have referenced above. I'd consider the target market of potential buyers of AB products and Profoto products (by way of examople) to be different markets.
As the difference is between the Rebel and the 1-Series markets, but if you compare them as "units sold," the 1-Series is a "niche" product.
RDKirk wrote:
As the difference is between the Rebel and the 1-Series markets, but if you compare them as "units sold," the 1-Series is a "niche" product.
Yes, but I think my point is that purely comparing the number of units sold assumes away the very conclusion I am disputing...
People looking at the number of Hondas sold and the number of Mercedes sold in a given fiscal year might conclude that Hondas "own the car market" in comparison to Mercedes. And while that might be true when looked at from a 50k ft. view, my guess is that people who are considering purchasing a Honda aren't looking at a Mercedes as an alternative, and people looking to buy a Mercedes aren't looking at a Honda as an alternative.
Same point. I think Paul's market (regardless of how he chooses to describe it) is in flash products with an entry-level price point. There do not appear (to my limited knowledge) to be tons of manufacturers making the kind of quality gear (as in good quality gear - I've said I'm a happy Bees owner) at that cost. Step up to the next cost bucket and the competition comes out of the woodwork - Elinchrom, Broncolor, Profoto, Hensel, etc.
Again, if you ASSUME that purchaser typically make a choice between a Vagabond for a couple hundred bucks and a Profoto 7b for four grand, then yeah...you can lump all the manufacturers together and fairly conclude that he is the market. But I think that assumption doesn't reflect real market choices made by consumers. But hey...maybe that is just reflective of the circles I run in.
Interesting discussion, but I'll bow out. I've made my point and I feel like I'm starting to derail this thread a bit. I like Paul's products and hope he delivers a kick-ass light in Einstein...just wish he would ignore all the noise and do his thing if that is the way he has decided to run the company.
E-Vener wrote:
These are just tools, we are discussing not religions, although so called "fanboys" of every brand of everything sold in a marketplace like to act otherwise.
Got that right! Too many people base there own self-worth on the Camera System, Computer OS, Make of Car or Brand of Lighting Equipment they own. Either that or their style of photography, i.e. I'm a Strobist and you're not!!!
Same point. I think Paul's market (regardless of how he chooses to describe it) is in flash products with an entry-level price point. There do not appear (to my limited knowledge) to be tons of manufacturers making the kind of quality gear (as in good quality gear - I've said I'm a happy Bees owner) at that cost. Step up to the next cost bucket and the competition comes out of the woodwork - Elinchrom, Broncolor, Profoto, Hensel, etc.
Again, if you ASSUME that purchaser typically make a choice between a Vagabond for a couple hundred bucks and a Profoto 7b for four grand, then yeah...you can lump all the manufacturers together and fairly conclude that he is the market. But I think that assumption doesn't reflect real market choices made by consumers. But hey...maybe that is just reflective of the circles I run in.
Interesting discussion, but I'll bow out. I've made my point and I feel like I'm starting to derail this thread a bit. I like Paul's products and hope he delivers a kick-ass light in Einstein...just wish he would ignore all the noise and do his thing if that is the way he has decided to run the company.
Very good points. However, you have to consider that even some of those who use the Elinchrom, Broncolor, Profoto, Hensel, etc may very well still have a set of AB to carry to those smaller, entertaining, danger to your gear shoots.
RDKirk wrote:
Knowing Buff is planning to release a new model as soon as he can is better than buying a current model now with no clue that a new model is imminent.
Not really. According to the dictionary, imminent - likely to occur at any moment.
Defintely not the case here. These things have a longer gestation period than an elephant!
MauriceBlair wrote:
A CEO's job is to take responsibility for the problems the company he/she represents. Not point at the suddenly hill employees nor the suppliers to buy or justify time. When is this CEO ever wrong? There is only one person responsible for the delay. In a way the product was announced over 2 years ago. This project has changed shape and name many time and was apparently improperly planned (or may be it was planned that way?). We are all way too aware of the entire Einstein story almost live across the forum to not come to this. The rest is what it is and the product will turn out eventually, but there is only one person responsible for the good and bad here. I've seen somewhere where Paul wrote that the product should be more expensive for his company to make the profit he wanted. The transparency is great, but attempting to keep the cost low seem to me the real #1 factor for the delays and changes not the suppliers, the clients or the employees.
The product look like its going to be great. I like my bees but I'm growing tired of all the non sense around the new ones...Show more →
What's stopping you from going to another maker? If you don't like how things are being handled, especially after "This project has changed shape and name many time and was apparently improperly planned," why would you stick around and wait?
Does it really matter future CEO's I guess you all run multi billion or million dollar companies yourselves. Here is the deal, Thanks Paul for letting us know what is going on the reality is we wish we had the product sooner. Unfortunately we don't and we will all wait with excitement for the time we can purchase.
Diavolo wrote:
What's stopping you from going to another maker? If you don't like how things are being handled, especially after "This project has changed shape and name many time and was apparently improperly planned," why would you stick around and wait?
The thing stopping people from going to another maker is that there is no comparably priced competing product. There is no comparably sized/weighted competing product.
Sure, one could go Bowens/Bron/Profoto, but the cost wouldn't be even close to the same and the system would be different. For some people this works, for others it doesn't.
The product specs here line up exceedingly well for a very large number of people - even if the price was 50-100% higher. Given that it is not, people will wait even as they complain about it.
While I'm sure it will be a very nice product for the price on paper, you'll be in a better position to make the claim after it actually exists. Until then it's pretty hard to say there's no comparable product.
Neuffy wrote:
The thing stopping people from going to another maker is that there is no comparably priced competing product. There is no comparably sized/weighted competing product.
Sure, one could go Bowens/Bron/Profoto, but the cost wouldn't be even close to the same and the system would be different. For some people this works, for others it doesn't.
The product specs here line up exceedingly well for a very large number of people - even if the price was 50-100% higher. Given that it is not, people will wait even as they complain about it.
I just figured with the depression these delays seem to be causing in people, they would have moved on by now.
The thing stopping people from going to another maker is that there is no comparably priced competing product. There is no comparably sized/weighted competing product.
The biggest thing that keeps me from going to another maker--besides the fact that Buff provides more information overall about his products than anyone else, and I have a high bias for companies that ply me with information--is the peerless wireless remote control system. Ever since the Radio Remote One, Buff's remote system has been and continues to be without equal, and it's become a near-essential part of my workflow.
You must be talking about some company in an episode of Star Trek.
Not sure what you mean. Last month for example Toyota's CEO came from Japan to testify, not from an episode of Star Trek. CEO - testify. Sounds pretty involved to me.
MauriceBlair wrote:
Not sure what you mean. Last month for example Toyota's CEO came from Japan to testify, not from an episode of Star Trek. CEO - testify. Sounds pretty involved to me.
"Involved" and "take responsibility" are two different things. Buff is definitely involved, and has made a point of publically testyfing to his involvement. He has also publically testifeid as to "what happened" to a degree seldom seen--even without being summoned to Congress.
Toyoda has not yet "taken responsibilty" for Toyota's problems--although Japanese executives have been known to take responsibility for corporate failures in a way that American executives never do. If Toyoda ever actually "takes responsibility" in Japanese fashion, we will hear of it.
Back in the late 80s, a Japanese Navy submarine struck a civilian yacht and killed three people. Every officer in the chain of command, from the skipper of that boat to the Chief of Submarine Operations for the Japanese Navy resigned his post. That is "taking responsibility."
I guess you all run multi billion or million dollar companies yourselves. Here is the deal, Thanks Paul for letting us know what is going on the reality is we wish we had the product sooner. Unfortunately we don't and we will all wait with excitement for the time we can purchase.