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Archive 2009Critiquing the Client
p.1 #1Critiquing the Client
I've added a section to my "newbies" sticky about this subject, but I'd just like to put this out there for those of you who have already read the sticky, because it's become a significant problem lately. Steve has had to remove multiple posts/threads over this issue in the past few weeks (including one of mine), and I know I've sent a few PM's suggesting that people adjust their wording in various threads,
There has been a rash lately of people making comments that are either explicitly derogatory to the subjects of photos, or, in the very least, ambiguous as to whether they refer to the photographic techniques used or to the client.
FredMiranda.com does VERY well on Google, folks. I have had a number of my non-photographer clients find this forum and my posts, and mention it to me. This is a public forum that anyone may view. Your comments WILL be seen by the public at large, and in some cases the subjects of the photos.
Much of the intellectual commerce of this forum centers around critique, and in order for it to be a useful forum, participants must be free to make critical comments as well as laudatory. However, critical comments absolutely MUST explicitly refer to the photographic techniques used, and should be worded in such a way to spare the client's feelings should they happen across the thread.
For example
Bad: "The bride looks fat in #5"
Better: "Your choice in posing #5 made the bride look larger than she needed to"
Best: "You should have chosen a more flattering pose in number 5, given the bride's body type. Consider trying...."
This is ESPECIALLY true for our brides, who are in many cases EXTREMELY self-conscious about their appearance, given the high expectations they have developed for their wedding day. Comments that we as photographers understand to be critical of technique (i.e., "he's obviously referring to posing, FL choice, etc") may not be viewed as such by a sensitive bride. Thus, always err on the side of caution when making your comments: if the subject was your sister/wife/mother/daughter, is it possible that she might take the comment badly? Anyone who has ever been asked "does this dress make my butt look big?" should understand how carefully one needs to approach some of these types of comments.
Different people have different attitudes toward critiques. Personally, I have a pretty thick skin and don't mind harsh comments. Heck, I've had people shoot at me and didn't take it personally
. However, I have absolutely zero tolerance for anyone making comments that might conceivably hurt the feelings of my clients.
Lets keep it classy FM. We're better than this.
There has been a rash lately of people making comments that are either explicitly derogatory to the subjects of photos, or, in the very least, ambiguous as to whether they refer to the photographic techniques used or to the client.
FredMiranda.com does VERY well on Google, folks. I have had a number of my non-photographer clients find this forum and my posts, and mention it to me. This is a public forum that anyone may view. Your comments WILL be seen by the public at large, and in some cases the subjects of the photos.
Much of the intellectual commerce of this forum centers around critique, and in order for it to be a useful forum, participants must be free to make critical comments as well as laudatory. However, critical comments absolutely MUST explicitly refer to the photographic techniques used, and should be worded in such a way to spare the client's feelings should they happen across the thread.
For example
Bad: "The bride looks fat in #5"
Better: "Your choice in posing #5 made the bride look larger than she needed to"
Best: "You should have chosen a more flattering pose in number 5, given the bride's body type. Consider trying...."
This is ESPECIALLY true for our brides, who are in many cases EXTREMELY self-conscious about their appearance, given the high expectations they have developed for their wedding day. Comments that we as photographers understand to be critical of technique (i.e., "he's obviously referring to posing, FL choice, etc") may not be viewed as such by a sensitive bride. Thus, always err on the side of caution when making your comments: if the subject was your sister/wife/mother/daughter, is it possible that she might take the comment badly? Anyone who has ever been asked "does this dress make my butt look big?" should understand how carefully one needs to approach some of these types of comments.
Different people have different attitudes toward critiques. Personally, I have a pretty thick skin and don't mind harsh comments. Heck, I've had people shoot at me and didn't take it personally
. However, I have absolutely zero tolerance for anyone making comments that might conceivably hurt the feelings of my clients.Lets keep it classy FM. We're better than this.
Nov 08, 2009 at 02:06 PM
p.1 #2Critiquing the Client
:clap:
Great post, Evan. Our family will be booking a wedding photographer in the near future. Looking at web sites, blogs and posts this weekend has been an eye opener for how much personality and off-hand comments can make a difference. I appreciate those who are very much themselves, but there is still professionalism that either shows through... or not.
Edited on Nov 08, 2009 at 02:23 PM · View previous versions
Great post, Evan. Our family will be booking a wedding photographer in the near future. Looking at web sites, blogs and posts this weekend has been an eye opener for how much personality and off-hand comments can make a difference. I appreciate those who are very much themselves, but there is still professionalism that either shows through... or not.
Edited on Nov 08, 2009 at 02:23 PM · View previous versions
Nov 08, 2009 at 02:22 PM
p.1 #7Critiquing the Client
I'll agree and I'll also go ahead and say since I was the recipient of one said email--albeit quite harassing, no harm intended. Your jobs as professional photographers is to make the best of the brides...if there is a slightest hint that a particular photo is not flattering, it should not go on a worldwide forum and be expected that *not one* comment be taken out of context.
I'd also like to add that crude and harassing PMs are unnecessary. Mocking posts will not get the poster to recant...rather retaliate. Keep it clean and don't be assholes, and we'll all get along.
I'd also like to add that crude and harassing PMs are unnecessary. Mocking posts will not get the poster to recant...rather retaliate. Keep it clean and don't be assholes, and we'll all get along.
Nov 08, 2009 at 03:03 PM
p.1 #8Critiquing the Client
This is a great reminder to all of us... good character is crucial to maintaining a healthy forum (not to mention a healthy "everythign else").
Nov 08, 2009 at 03:14 PM
p.1 #9Critiquing the Client
Why cant Fred lock this place down, so one has to register to view.
Nov 08, 2009 at 03:15 PM
p.1 #10Critiquing the Client
JazzyMac wrote:
I'll agree and I'll also go ahead and say since I was the recipient of one said email--albeit quite harassing, no harm intended. Your jobs as professional photographers is to make the best of the brides...if there is a slightest hint that a particular photo is not flattering, it should not go on a worldwide forum and be expected that *not one* comment be taken out of context.
I'd also like to add that crude and harassing PMs are unnecessary. Mocking posts will not get the poster to recant...rather retaliate. Keep it clean and don't be assholes, and we'll all get...Show more →
Good grief.
I'll agree and I'll also go ahead and say since I was the recipient of one said email--albeit quite harassing, no harm intended. Your jobs as professional photographers is to make the best of the brides...if there is a slightest hint that a particular photo is not flattering, it should not go on a worldwide forum and be expected that *not one* comment be taken out of context.
I'd also like to add that crude and harassing PMs are unnecessary. Mocking posts will not get the poster to recant...rather retaliate. Keep it clean and don't be assholes, and we'll all get...Show more →
Good grief.
Nov 08, 2009 at 03:24 PM
p.1 #11Critiquing the Client
Good Post Evan. I can't say I've been a saint here in all way but I'm trying. Hinds sight, I may have chose differently in the screen name department had I to do it over again. The name SAM HASSAS really narrows it down to who I really am. Oh well. I have to play nice is all. I've really tried to be a bit more diplomatic as a good dozen or so folks here have become clients.
They deserve the best.
In the past I've had to delete comments some morons made on FB when I've posted. They decided the best time to critque my work was when 60% of my client base was watching. :shakes head: There are some playground rules. Some so obvious that you look like a complete D-bag for ignoring them.
They deserve the best.
In the past I've had to delete comments some morons made on FB when I've posted. They decided the best time to critque my work was when 60% of my client base was watching. :shakes head: There are some playground rules. Some so obvious that you look like a complete D-bag for ignoring them.
Nov 08, 2009 at 03:29 PM
p.1 #12Critiquing the Client
Thats the thing Sam, no one is perfect and nobodys should expect that.
Most of us like a laugh but manners cost nothing.
Although some of your photos are ok , a lot of people book you for your personality that still shines through on the interwebs.
I would hate this forum to turn sour...
True story.
Most of us like a laugh but manners cost nothing.
Although some of your photos are ok
, a lot of people book you for your personality that still shines through on the interwebs.I would hate this forum to turn sour...
True story.
Nov 08, 2009 at 03:40 PM
p.1 #13Critiquing the Client
Sam Hassas wrote:
Hinds sight, I may have chose differently in the screen name department had I to do it over again. The name SAM HASSAS really narrows it down to who I really am. Oh well.
I wonder how many 'Inku Yo' s are out there?
Hinds sight, I may have chose differently in the screen name department had I to do it over again. The name SAM HASSAS really narrows it down to who I really am. Oh well.
I wonder how many 'Inku Yo' s are out there?
Nov 08, 2009 at 03:43 PM
p.1 #14Critiquing the Client
and another thing...
Its good to have your real name/website attached to what you say on here as there is no hiding from what you post.
Its true that it increases sugar coating but we can't have it all I guess.
Its good to have your real name/website attached to what you say on here as there is no hiding from what you post.
Its true that it increases sugar coating but we can't have it all I guess.
Nov 08, 2009 at 03:43 PM
p.1 #15Critiquing the Client
Jazzy,
I would prefer that we not derail this thread by discussing the particular issue you have with me. If you consider my single message to be harassment, despite the absence of any threats, profanity, or derisive name-calling, then please forward my message to our moderator so that appropriate action can be taken. I'm sure that Steve will give your complaint the attention that it deserves.
I would prefer that we not derail this thread by discussing the particular issue you have with me. If you consider my single message to be harassment, despite the absence of any threats, profanity, or derisive name-calling, then please forward my message to our moderator so that appropriate action can be taken. I'm sure that Steve will give your complaint the attention that it deserves.
Nov 08, 2009 at 04:34 PM
p.1 #16Critiquing the Client
Something I have always enjoyed about this forum - the ability to share your work, get honest C&C and grow from it. It's very unfortunate and in very poor taste that some feel the need to directly critique the clients.
Thanks for your post Evan. It's something that was overdue and hopefully is taken in the context that is was written. Something I always keep in mind when I work with clients is it's NEVER about me, but about them. When we show our photographs, it's a recording of our clients lives and should NEVER be held up to contempt.
Thanks for your post Evan. It's something that was overdue and hopefully is taken in the context that is was written. Something I always keep in mind when I work with clients is it's NEVER about me, but about them. When we show our photographs, it's a recording of our clients lives and should NEVER be held up to contempt.
Nov 08, 2009 at 05:37 PM
p.1 #17Critiquing the Client
I'd also like to mention that to photographers posting comments about their OWN clients might want to strongly consider the way they mention them. Even if you don't have a real name, there's a chance you'll show up in SEO if you ever posted a photo (url) or link. Some people seem to vent about their clients but I think that's best done in a more private setting and will make this place classier.
Great post Evan.
Great post Evan.
Nov 08, 2009 at 05:46 PM
p.1 #19Critiquing the Client
A very good reminder. I've had a few people find out about this place and specifically ask not to post their pics cause they don't want to hear the responses... Kinda stinks, but it's true.
Nov 08, 2009 at 06:37 PM
p.1 #20Critiquing the Client
I for one will be the first to admit that in the past I have vented about brides and people not being super models, however I think we should all remain professional both in our work and our critique.
great post Evan the words you speak are the truth.
Doug
great post Evan the words you speak are the truth.
Doug
Nov 08, 2009 at 07:12 PM