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Archive 2009 · What does fluorite actually do?

  
 
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #1 · What does fluorite actually do?



If this is a school project, your school probably has loads of research resources at your disposal..


As one who teaches (college), if this is a class project I'd also add that "discussion in the FM forum" is not likely to pass muster as a bibliography entry. :-)

Fred Lindsey wrote:
It is a presentation rather than a written piece so sources are not of as much importance.


Uh, that is not the way it usually works... Perhaps you will not be asked to provide written sources (if so, I'd have a few words with your teacher...) but the validity of your references is still critical.

Dan



Nov 08, 2009 at 02:11 PM
Fred Lindsey
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p.2 #2 · What does fluorite actually do?


We have to provide a short bibliography (general sources (Wikipedia, Canon Lens Book III, cpn.canon-europe.com, etc.) on the last slide.

I have been told (through an email in the last hour or so) that I don't have to focus on the mechanical structure too much because this is not relevant to its use, apart from its softness being a hinderence in the manufacture process leading to a high price which is an economic issue.

I have also been told that I do have to try to link the optical properties to the microstructure.



Nov 08, 2009 at 02:49 PM
kakomu
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p.2 #3 · What does fluorite actually do?


Fred Lindsey wrote:
We have to provide a short bibliography (general sources (Wikipedia, Canon Lens Book III, cpn.canon-europe.com, etc.) on the last slide.

I have been told (through an email in the last hour or so) that I don't have to focus on the mechanical structure too much because this is not relevant to its use, apart from its softness being a hinderence in the manufacture process leading to a high price which is an economic issue.

I have also been told that I do have to try to link the optical properties to the microstructure.


Wikipedia is rarely ever considered a good source in any academic setting. Also, the Canon Lens Book is more promotional than scientific. You'll probably want to find at least ONE book on either:

A) Chemistry
B) Geology
C) Optics
D) Lens design



Nov 08, 2009 at 03:00 PM
Lars Johnsson
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p.2 #4 · What does fluorite actually do?


Fred Lindsey wrote:
Oh yes. All of Canon's super telephoto lenses above and including 200mm that have large apertures utilise fluorite elements, the 1200mm F5.6 utilising 2.


The 800 also has two really large fluorite elements. And the
70-200/4
70-200/4 IS
100-400



Nov 08, 2009 at 03:02 PM
John H Smith
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p.2 #5 · What does fluorite actually do?


Several of the L series 'big white lenses' have fluorite elements. (300 f2.8, 400 f2.8, 400 f4 DO, 500 f4, 600 f4, 100-400 L)

Fluorite is used to compensate for the limitations of optical glass in long focal length lenses in terms of chromatic aberation. A combination of fluorite and glass elements is stated to effectively eliminate chromatic aberation accross the visible spectrum. It is also stated that overall length of the lens can be reduced.

Best explanation I have seen is in the canon book 'EF lenswork IIII'



Nov 08, 2009 at 03:03 PM
Fred Lindsey
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p.2 #6 · What does fluorite actually do?


Because I have to state why it is transparent, is the following explanation(ish) email that I sent to my tutor correct -

"If I were to say that fluorite is transparent because, when in pure form, it has no grain boundaries and so light photons are able to pass through without being reflected, would I be correct? Also, if this were true it would also mean that the reason fluorite is so expensive and can't be grown naturally, is because of this need to have large pieces with no imperfections which have to be produced artificially in a factory at certain temperature conditions, also meaning that because it has no grain boundaries or porosity, it is very soft and thus can't be accurately moulded using templates.
The reason for its high transparency then would be as a result of the fact that it is a very pure substance whereas glass is a rather impure substance due to the other elements inside it such as barium and lathanium which are compounded with the silica to make it more tough, and the heating/cooling process more stable."



Nov 08, 2009 at 03:07 PM
wickerprints
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p.2 #7 · What does fluorite actually do?


Fred Lindsey wrote:
Am I right in assuming that fluorite elements are not pure crystalline, or are they?


No, they are crystalline.

So a fluorite element does not have to be aspherical?

As I mentioned in my previous post, the use of fluorite and the use of aspherical elements relate to the correction of two different types of aberrations (chromatic and spherical, respectively). The former is a function of wavelength; the latter is not. That is to say, if one had a lens that was composed only of spherical surfaces, and the incoming light was of a single wavelength, you still would see spherical aberration manifest as out-of-focus areas of the image.

Actually, looking at the element combinations in Canon's lenses, would having an aspherical lens in a Super-telephoto be so difficult to manufacture because of the fact that it would require such small differences from a spherical element that they don't use it, because the current manufacture processes would bring adverse effects to the lens' performance?

Large aspherical elements are difficult to manufacture because the process by which they are made does not scale well with size. Canon employs two methods for aspherical element production--grinding and casting. In grinding, a rough blank is precision ground to the desired shape, which has been modeled by computer. In casting, soft glass is pressed into a pre-fabricated mold to give the desired shape. Both methods then require subsequent polishing. The precision required for aspherical elements makes both methods difficult to scale.

But the real reason why the super-telephoto lenses don't use aspherics is not due to difficulty of manufacturing. It is because from a optical standpoint, they are not needed. Aspherics are used in wide-angle primes and zooms, in which the angle of view is large enough that spherical aberration becomes pronounced. By the nature of telephoto lenses--i.e., their small angle of view--spherical aberration is naturally low.

I'm assuming then that fluorite is separate to Aspherical elements, but the combination could, in theory, produce the better results than just fluorite alone.

Because chromatic and spherical aberrations do not necessarily occur to the same extent in a given optical design, it is not generally the case that both technologies need to be used to correct for them. There are other aberrations to consider as well (coma, astigmatism).

I think I understand extraordinary partial dispersion now - is this just the reduction of the refractive index at the outer points of the element to reduce the difference between the effective focal lengths of the red, green and blue light rays, and thus reduce chromatic aberration especially at the corners, and induce a higher degree of visual sharpness?

No. The refractive index is a function of wavelength, not material thickness or geometry. See Snell's Law. Extraordinary partial dispersion, as mentioned in my previous post, refers to atypical differences in refractive index as a function of wavelength, compared to other types of glass. Most glasses share similar dispersion curves--if you plot wavelength on the x-axis, and refractive index on the y-axis, then you will see similarities in the shape of these curves for a variety of silicate glass. Fluorite, in addition to having lower dispersion than most glass, has a different shape to its curve. The different shape means it is possible to selectively correct portions of the visual spectrum with a combination of elements made with different dispersion characteristics.

So, if I research and write about the structure of CaF2, am I also then talking about Fluorite, as they are the same thing.

For the purposes of discussing fluorite in optical lens design, yes.

Although not as important, I would still like to know if DO elements are also fluorite.

No. Although DO and fluorite elements are both used to correct chromatic aberration, they do so using different physical properties. The DO lens uses diffraction, not extraordinary dispersion.

Edited on Nov 08, 2009 at 03:31 PM · View previous versions



Nov 08, 2009 at 03:21 PM
Jim Healey
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p.2 #8 · What does fluorite actually do?


Internet chatter or not ... I find this topic very interesting and thank those who have contributed their wisdom on the subject.

I'm sure this will help the OP to "focus" his further research.



Nov 08, 2009 at 03:21 PM
AJSJones
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p.2 #9 · What does fluorite actually do?


FWIW At the Corning glass museum, long ago, I recall looking through a piece of glass that was thirty feet long - the image coming through was exceptionally clear and undistorted and had only the slightest tinge of green!

Fluorite is a crystal, glass is not. Growing large crystals of anything is very difficult and usually time-consuming. In nature, imperfect conditions usually intrude during crystal growth before the crystal is big - think of diamonds!!! As for A-level explanations, you'll need to understand terms like orbitals, electron clouds, polarizability, electromagnetic fields and the like... The "transparency" issue is due to imperfections that can scatter photons and it applies both to glass and crystals. Interesting topic - sounds like advanced college physics to explain the unusual wavelength dependence of the dispersion properties



Nov 08, 2009 at 03:40 PM
Fred Lindsey
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p.2 #10 · What does fluorite actually do?


I think I should have chosen the easy option.........superconductors


Nov 08, 2009 at 03:47 PM
Fred Lindsey
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p.2 #11 · What does fluorite actually do?


So, was I correct on how fluorite is transparent, when pure?

Would I be right in suggesting that when you talk of imperfect conditions you mean perspiration and temperature change which causes a change in the way the chemical is reacting, thus the corruption in the crystal forming?




Nov 08, 2009 at 03:50 PM
wickerprints
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p.2 #12 · What does fluorite actually do?


Fred Lindsey wrote:
I think I should have chosen the easy option.........superconductors


At some level, you are just going to have to recognize that you can't possibly research everything and explain everything. The point of a presentation is to distill the underlying concepts into an easily understood summary. Don't make it overly technical, but be prepared to have technical answers to questions that may be asked.

Also, don't get caught up in the details. Part of the process of learning to write papers is to know which claims need more exposition and which facts should simply be accepted on their face. A tutor or adviser can only guide that decision, but it is you who, during the process of research, should develop a sense of what aspects of your chosen topic are necessary to explain.

In my opinion, the discussion of what makes fluorite optically clear is not particularly germane to the reason why fluorite is used in lens production. This is a relatively minor detail that does not need to be investigated at length. On the other hand, what gives fluorite extraordinary partial dispersion, the discussion of dispersion as it relates to chromatic aberration, and the comparison of the dispersion characteristics of different optical materials, are all very much relevant. Entire research papers have been written on dispersion alone.



Nov 08, 2009 at 04:02 PM
skibum5
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p.2 #13 · What does fluorite actually do?


Fred Lindsey wrote:
Hi everyone,

I am doing a physics project on why fluorite is used in Canon's high performance super-telephoto lenses but I need to clarify somethings before I write it up.

1. Is fluorite an aspherical element and are they connected in any way?

2. Can someone explain extraordinary partial dispersion to me, I looked on canon's EF Lens III pdf and couldn't understand exactly what it meant?

3. Are DO elements made of fluorite?

4. Is the fluorite used in Canon's S T Lenses CaF2, and if so will the atomic structure I find on wikipedia and such be identical to that of the
...Show more

1. it has nothing to do with aspherical or not (i'm pretty sure they could never make a molded aspherical and obviously not resin replica aspherical perhaps they could make a carved/polished type which is the costliest sort but I don't think anyone makes aspherical fluorite elements, i'm sure it's far easier and cost effective to put those on different elements in teh designs where they may make more sense to be placed anyway)

2. you can find all sorts of info on this all over
do a little google, look at Optics by Hecht for a little more

but anyway putting it really simply fluorite doesn't disperse visible frequencies of light as much as glass for some visible frequencies so it can focus all the different frequencies across part of the range closer to the same spot while leaving others farther out and if they have used regular glass in pairs to bring parts together while leaving one end of the frequency spectrum way out of line fluorite can bring back the part they left far out while not much further dispersing the parts they already brought together, i.e. less CA fringing in the end; some simple focal lengths they can just use regular glass like in a 50mm and mirror the dispersions to cancel them out

3. no, DO has nothing remotely to do with fluorite, they are diffrative optical elements, although some DO lenses do also have fluorite elements

4. yes. I think Canon may still be the only company (hmm could be wrong actually), anyway certainly the only DSLR maker, that can grow their own pure, large fluorite crystals, Nikon fluorite elements are not pure crystals but glass doped with a lot of fluorite.


Edited on Nov 08, 2009 at 04:39 PM · View previous versions



Nov 08, 2009 at 04:05 PM
skibum5
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p.2 #14 · What does fluorite actually do?


Fred Lindsey wrote:
Does anyone know in terms of its atomic structure why it allows such a high proportion of light through at 157nm, and why it has such a low refractive index?



start with Optics by Hecht and then move on from there....



Nov 08, 2009 at 04:07 PM
Fred Lindsey
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p.2 #15 · What does fluorite actually do?


You might laugh when I tell you I have 7 mins to discuss this.

I will have to explain why fluorite is transparent, I have been told that. I am pretty sure I can do that if it is what I have said before - a lack of porosity and grain boundaries which allow light photons to be passed through with limited reflection and absorption.

I understand that refraction is what happens when the light rays pass from one medium to another and the change in velocity causes them to veer towards the normal.
Side note - Is the reason they veer towards the normal because, similar to a gravitational property, the reduction in velocity means a reduction in a vertical vector, as well as the horizontal of course?




Nov 08, 2009 at 04:08 PM
skibum5
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p.2 #16 · What does fluorite actually do?


Fred Lindsey wrote:
Because I have to state why it is transparent, is the following explanation(ish) email that I sent to my tutor correct -

"If I were to say that fluorite is transparent because, when in pure form, it has no grain boundaries and so light photons are able to pass through without being reflected, would I be correct?

The reason for its high transparency then would be as a result of the fact that it is a very pure substance whereas glass is a rather impure substance due to the other elements inside it such as barium and lathanium which are compounded
...Show more

if they just went straight through they would be charging $3000 for something that did nothing more than the air between the elements


Edited on Nov 08, 2009 at 04:20 PM · View previous versions



Nov 08, 2009 at 04:17 PM
Fred Lindsey
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p.2 #17 · What does fluorite actually do?


Is the lower refractive index that normal optical glass due to a lower density of the fluorite and thus the reduction in velocity is less than that of glass?


Nov 08, 2009 at 04:19 PM
wickerprints
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p.2 #18 · What does fluorite actually do?


Fred Lindsey wrote:
You might laugh when I tell you I have 7 mins to discuss this.


Yes, I am laughing. Good luck.



Nov 08, 2009 at 04:20 PM
Fred Lindsey
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p.2 #19 · What does fluorite actually do?


So why is it so transparent then?


Nov 08, 2009 at 04:21 PM
Fred Lindsey
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p.2 #20 · What does fluorite actually do?


wickerprints wrote:
Yes, I am laughing. Good luck.


I'm not afraid of my colleagues, its the teacher and the mark scheme.



Nov 08, 2009 at 04:22 PM
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