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Archive 2009 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?

  
 
python2000
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p.4 #1 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?


Considering that only a fraction of the 7Ds that have been ordered are now in the hands of their owners....


Oct 15, 2009 at 09:01 PM
gfiksel
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p.4 #2 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?


PhotogDave wrote:
Thats just it. You dont equalize the image. The 7D makes an 18mp image...NOT a 10MP image. And at that size, it doesnt even come close to the 1D3. Still waiting on some examples.

If you were to make an 8x10 from both cameras, you wouldnt downzide the 7D for the 8x10 in total pixels, you just chop off a small portion of the image....leaving still roughly 15mp's. No one completely downsizes images for print...at least they shouldnt. Just clip the ends that need to go for the particular aspect ratio you are using.

To evaluate in print, it would be easier
...Show more

I have never seen such a confusion of cropping and downsampling.



Oct 15, 2009 at 09:08 PM
timbop
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p.4 #3 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?


python2000 wrote:
Considering that only a fraction of the 7Ds that have been ordered are now in the hands of their owners....


Yep. Got mine last thursday and shot a wedding with it on saturday, worked on the house all day sunday. Absolutely impressed with the 7d's AF at the reception - it was a tad faster than the 50d, which is better at a dark reception hall than my 1dm2. That's right, I said it - the 1d2 was excellent on medium to good light, but slower in poor light. I shoot for a studio, so don't the rights to show anything from the wedding here, so you'll have to take my word. I don't do BIF; the longest lens I have is a 70-200. It is raining on a thursday night. Sorry, I can't pull shots of kingfishers out of my butt, so I guess the camera sucks.

whatever.



Oct 15, 2009 at 09:10 PM
veroman
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p.4 #4 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?


TooManyShots wrote:
Here is a 1mdarkIII does Kinglets.....no small feat BTW. See if the 7D can do Kinglets What's a Kinglet for the non-birders? Think of a bird smaller than the size of a ping pong ball that won't stand still for more than 2 seconds hopping around from one branch to another.....underneath dense foliage. In upside down, right side up positions and orientations...
Most of the shots are shot at under ISO 1600, if you could tell which if at all.....


Absolutely amazing, perfect and exceptional photography. Makes me want to buy a 1D III. Thanks for posting.

- Steve



Oct 15, 2009 at 10:08 PM
PhotogDave
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p.4 #5 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?


timbop,
The shots I posted were very thin in DOF too. As said twice, these last sets were done with a POS Tamron 200-500 indoors man. That lens sucks and look at the detail it shows over the 7D, hands down. I'm not objecting to anything, just waiting to see anything close to whats been posted by 1D3 users.

The shot of the dogs eye is in focus, but its not sharp. Its dull, it lacks any kind of hair detail anywhere in the DOF. Adn at MFD, so, the Tamron I used wont focus closer than 8ft. But I am not debating focus, I'm debating image sharpness and noise.
The shots I posted with the Tamron on 1D3 have more detail than your 7D with Canon L zoom. I own that zoom and its twice as sharp as the Tamron. As you can see from other images I posted.

I've seen your rants for the last few weeks, and frankly I am done bothering with you.

You guys always say rants when anyone calls you out, or proves you wrong. I'm only speaking the truth. I made a statement and backed it up. All the 7D comments havent been backed up yet. And there has been plenty of time to post samples. None are coming because there arent any to match the quality.

You dont need to post shots of Kingfishers, just post a sharp detailed image of your dog. He's right there waiting. I have posted a huge variety of examples from wedding shots at f5 ISO 1600 to ISO3200 f2.8 at weddigns in total darkness, to indoor ISO1600 shots of pets with Tamron etc. And still, nothing to match it yet.

Hmmm, if this AF ever gets consistent, I may not ever give it up. I seriously hope Canon didnt take the same path of the 7D with the 1D4, cause thats not the IQ I want. I hope for the Pro line 1 Series, they follow Nikon and keep the Mp's sensible, for real IQ.







Oct 15, 2009 at 10:25 PM
skibum5
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p.4 #6 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?


PhotogDave wrote:
Thats just it. You dont equalize the image. The 7D makes an 18mp image...NOT a 10MP image. And at that size, it doesnt even come close to the 1D3. Still waiting on some examples.

If you were to make an 8x10 from both cameras, you wouldnt downzide the 7D for the 8x10 in total pixels, you just chop off a small portion of the image....leaving still roughly 15mp's. No one completely downsizes images for print...at least they shouldnt. Just clip the ends that need to go for the particular aspect ratio you are using.

To evaluate in print, it would be easier
...Show more

and yeah view both prints from the same distance and the noise WON'T compared as it would at 100% view

come on, how the hell is it fair to compare noise at 100% view? Sure the 7D is not an 18MP camera, it has the advantage that given enough lighting it can pull in more detail or deliver more reach. A 10MP can never act like an 18MP camera. If you care about noise you can apply more NR or downsize or print both as is at the same size, that is the fair and reasonable way to compare for noise! It's like saying that some car that can get 2mpg at 180mph and 40mpg at 65mph and under burns more fuel than a car that gets 20mpg at 65mph and under and can't go over 80mph just because the fast car only gets 2mpg at 180mph! (and yes I know those #'s are not likely for cars)

that said I do agree with you in that i seriously doubt the 7D can match the 1D3 for SNR even at the image level. From tentative measurements it seems to have less DR than the 1D3 at lower ISO (especially at ISO100 where the 1D3 has perhaps the most of any canon release) and similar at highest ISOs (but quite a lot less than the 5D2 which seems to have the greatest high ISO DR of any canon release). It also appears to collect light a bit better per surface area than the 1D3 but not enough to make up for the much larger APS-H sensor size. DOn't forget how much more light the 1D3 can collect at the image level.

Of course if you are doing reach limited stuff, the 7D provides equal to much greater detail with less noise at all ISO than the 1D3 (assuming the AF doesn't do worse, which remains to be seen, so far the center point seems sort of similar to the center on my 5D2 for one shot).

more worrisome is that it appears, at the least, quite a few early copies have horribly out of whack calibration of the sensor channel gains which contributes extra noise (even in the upper mid-tones as much as the entire shot noise component) and produces artifacts which can also cut a little into detail too, at least when processed with any third party converters. Hopefully most copies won't have this in the end or a fix arrives. SOme copies, at the very least and I get the feeling it may even be many copies, have some ugly business going on with the read electronic calibration.








Edited on Oct 16, 2009 at 01:53 AM · View previous versions



Oct 16, 2009 at 01:46 AM
skibum5
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p.4 #7 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?


TooManyShots wrote:
Here is a 1mdarkIII does Kinglets.....no small feat BTW. See if the 7D can do Kinglets What's a Kinglet for the non-birders? Think of a bird smaller than the size of a ping pong ball that won't stand still for more than 2 seconds hopping around from one branch to another.....underneath dense foliage. In upside down, right side up positions and orientations...

Most of the shots are shot at under ISO 1600, if you could tell which if at all.....


i actually have kinglets taken with a 40D so....

and the 7D has more reach than a 1D3 and should have better SNR when totally reach limited as one always is with kinglets....




Oct 16, 2009 at 01:48 AM
alundeb
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p.4 #8 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?


PhotgDave and TooManyShots, your 1D3 images are a joy to look at. It is not only the camera, but also the photographer. That is not meant as an argument, but as a tribute.



Oct 16, 2009 at 02:38 AM
TeamSpeed
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p.4 #9 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?


timbop wrote:
Impressive. I son't shoot kinglets, so don't know if the 7D is fast enough, but I suspect it absolutely is. For a frame of reference, until 3 weeks ago I owned a 1dm2 - so I am going to call myself qualified to judge AF speed. The perceptive will catch on to the fact that I repllaced the 1dm2 with the 7d, and so far am very pleased.

On e thing is right - threads like this will always bring out the worst. Those of you happy with the 1d3 will vehemently defend it, and not believe a camera half the
...Show more

Hopefully I can break the mold!

I had a MKIII for a year and a half, and sadly sold it about 4 months ago right here on FM. I now have a 7D, and I can also state with certainty the following items:

1) I miss the MKIII much less now than I did when I had a 30D, 40D and 50D in lieu of the MKIII.

2) The high ISO noise, when resized down, post processes very similiarly to the MKIII images and is right on par with the MKIII, ISO 12800 on the 7D, after cleanup, actually come out better than the MKIII.

3) AF tracking is very good, not quite as good as the MKIII, but is probably the closest thing to almost any other body at this point. I have never had a IIN, but given that it was quite good and everybody compared the MKIII to it, I would expect that the 7D is slightly under the AF performance of the IIN as well.

4) Build is outstanding, a very tight and well balanced camera.

5) The MKIII images still have more "pop" than the 7D, most likely due to the slight changes of DOF from APS-H vs APS-C, just like the 5D has that magical "pop" as well.

6) The 7D has the best noise characteristic of any xxD at this point, except maybe the 20D. The random dispersion of color noise vs banding in the prior bodies is tremendously improved. It has been a while since I had a 20D, but I don't remember the banding issue so much with that camera, but it probably had it.

7) The MKIII has more features and configurations, still something I miss on the 7D, like multiple custom WB settings, 3 slots of CF settings, etc. I also miss the dual card slots.

These are my observations, but I am only a hobbyist that has had numerous xxD bodies, and only 1 MKIII. I don't shoot BIF, but shoot about every other kind of situation, from portrait to events to night performances to low light house shots. Others may find something different to my findings, and that is okay, your opinion and situation is very different than mine, and is to be expected.

One thing I have learned is to ignore anybody that throws in their opinion if they have not had both to compare. Period. Theory is just that, theory, practical experience from those that have had both supersedes theory. There are many armchair quarterbacks here it seems, that just assume they know where technology is now and is going in the future, but base all their speculation on what technology was in the past.

Needless to say, I will still watch for the MKIII successor with anticipation, and most likely will replace the 7D with that, because I expect, based on what Canon did on the 7D, the new 1D will just be phenomenal.



Oct 16, 2009 at 06:00 AM
keithreeder
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p.4 #10 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?


Uuummm...

Just for a sense of proportion, many years ago (2005, anyway) I was shooting Goldcrests - European representatives of the Kinglet family (and behaviourly identical to Kinglets) - with a Nikon D70 and creaky old Sigma 135-400mm in available light (ignore the PP - as I say it was a long time ago):

http://kazemisu.me.uk/birdimages/gold12700fav.jpg

http://kazemisu.me.uk/birdimages/gold14700fav.jpg

http://kazemisu.me.uk/birdimages/goldcrest8700fav.jpg

http://kazemisu.me.uk/birdimages/goldcrest1700fav.jpg

If I still had the NEF (RAW) files I could make a lot more of these, but the fact remains - slow camera, slow (in every sense) lens...

I can only imagine how they'd look with a 7D and my 100-400mm, but I'd bet on fantastic...




Oct 16, 2009 at 06:28 AM
ruhikant
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p.4 #11 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?


alundeb wrote:
PhotgDave and TooManyShots, your 1D3 images are a joy to look at. It is not only the camera, but also the photographer. That is not meant as an argument, but as a tribute.

PhotgDave and TooManyShots:
7D has just been out. so you may not find many great images so far. But please take a look at these pictures (all taken with lowly 30D) from a good phographer.
So, you need to wait and see or give the 7D to someone who can use them nicely.


Imges are from
http://www.clementfrancis.com
http://www.clementfrancis.com/naturescapes/RBL.JPG

http://www.clementfrancis.com/naturescapes/roller5.JPG

http://www.clementfrancis.com/naturescapes/BTB.JPG

http://www.clementfrancis.com/naturescapes/kestrel.JPG

http://www.clementfrancis.com/naturescapes/StoneChat.JPG

http://www.clementfrancis.com/naturescapes/PRS.JPG

http://www.clementfrancis.com/portfolioimages/marshharrier.jpg

To me, those feathers are just like the feathers should be and imagine what he can do with 7D.




Oct 16, 2009 at 03:04 PM
GeneO
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p.4 #12 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?


These last (30d) images look way over-processed IMO. Too bad, the subjects are excellent. I can show you better detail in 10D wildlife shots FWIW.

This thread sure is all over the map.

Gene

Edited on Oct 16, 2009 at 04:48 PM · View previous versions



Oct 16, 2009 at 04:44 PM
GeneO
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p.4 #13 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?


I am sure the 7D will be producing images with better detail then these 1D3 shots once you get it in the hands of more than just a few experienced photographers. Sharpness and detail isn;t all there is though.

Gene



Oct 16, 2009 at 04:47 PM
PhotogDave
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p.4 #14 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?


OK, so here we are, examples from 30D's and Keiths Nikon D70's, but still no 7D images that match up. These 30D images IMO still look better than what I have seen so far from 7D.

I never said the 30D and Nikon D70 had bad images. I said the 7D wasnt what it should be. I agree, the 30D made good images at sensable ISO's, these bird shots arent bad.

We are comparing the 7D though. And NO, do NOT think that becasue the 7D is newer that it will have sharper and more detailed images than the 30D just becasue its new. It doesnt work that way. The 7D is showing soft images due to NR from noisy sensor. Keith, dont asume those shots would have been better with your 7D, I bet youd be surprised. Cause I havent even seen images like those from the 7D yet.

Geno, NO you are right, sharpness and detail isnt the be all end all in photography. But it is in this thread becasue the OP asked about IQ compared to the 1D3.

And nothing ruins a great well composed image more than a soft image.

So the challenge still remains, lets see some 7D images that have the detail that has been shown here so far....hell even from the 30D and D70. My 40D has the same detail as my 1D3 at lower ISO's, it even beats the 7D images I have seen so far. At ISO 800, it can do pretty much what the 1D3 has been shown here.

I would love to see some from someone. I have been hoping the soft images were just bad post, or crappy lens etc. But NO, they all have that inherent softness about them. Even RG wanted to say it, but he hinted around at it.

Guys, I am not trying to stir the pot, I promise. I just responded to the OP, posted examples to back my point, and waiting to be proven wrong.




Oct 16, 2009 at 05:11 PM
Andrew J
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p.4 #15 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?


If the 7D shots are soft, MA should take care of that. I have noticed about 9/10 people refuse to mess with MA.


Oct 16, 2009 at 07:01 PM
elader
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p.4 #16 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?


alundeb wrote:
Ever heard of 100% coverage microlenses?



Ever hear of creative marketing?



Oct 16, 2009 at 07:11 PM
GeneO
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p.4 #17 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?


Ahem, there is more to image quality than sharpness, you are equating the two. Those 30D images don't show any extraordinary detail so I wouldn't hold them up as a shining examples. I don not know how you can judge the amount of detail from a bunch of down-sampled over-sharpened images.

I thought Conrad tan's 7d bird images showed great detail - and he posted 100% crops, e.g.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/821100

for one of his posts, and

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/823371/0

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/821804/0


You just need to look around some more.
Gene

PhotogDave wrote:
OK, so here we are, examples from 30D's and Keiths Nikon D70's, but still no 7D images that match up. These 30D images IMO still look better than what I have seen so far from 7D.

I never said the 30D and Nikon D70 had bad images. I said the 7D wasnt what it should be. I agree, the 30D made good images at sensable ISO's, these bird shots arent bad.

We are comparing the 7D though. And NO, do NOT think that becasue the 7D is newer that it will have sharper and more detailed images than the 30D just becasue
...Show more



Oct 16, 2009 at 08:05 PM
michael49
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p.4 #18 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?


skibum5 wrote:
...Of course if you are doing reach limited stuff, the 7D provides equal to much greater detail with less noise at all ISO than the 1D3 .....




Exactly, this camera should be a birder's dream, especially those that can't afford the longest glass.

The differences in images between the 7D and 1DIII after NR and other PP should be minimal from what I have seen and the 7D provides more "reach" when needed.

Barring major AF problems I don't know how anyone can knock the 7D; its a hell of alot of camera for $1700.



Oct 16, 2009 at 08:23 PM
PhotogDave
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p.4 #19 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?


Andrew J wrote:
If the 7D shots are soft, MA should take care of that. I have noticed about 9/10 people refuse to mess with MA.



The soft images are in focus, I'm sayig nothing in the image is superior in terms of sharpness and detail.

Conrads images are good, but again, none are showing 100% crops, all were croped asthetically for composition, hardley showing full image.

I'm not arguing the point any more. Its pointless, people are gonna say what they want, believe what they want, the images will speak for themselves. And when a bunch of people buy the 7D and start complaining about how they were not impressed(as many already have) I'll be thinking, "Told ya so."

I'm done.



Oct 16, 2009 at 10:33 PM
GeneO
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p.4 #20 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?


Now there is the pot calling the kettle black. You don't need time, time is already against you so I will be the first to say I told you so

And Conrad's and others examples I linked have much more detail than those 30D shots. That is for sure.

Gene



Oct 16, 2009 at 10:53 PM
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