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Archive 2009 · 12 bit vs 14 bit

  
 
TonyBeach
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p.2 #1 · 12 bit vs 14 bit


rsg_1 wrote:
On the contrary. ISO is the light sensitivity of the sensor, that is voltage applied to the sensor for signal gain, in order for the sensor to convert light to voltage. Should the sensor be more efficient in doing this conversion, it would require less voltage, hence a lower ISO setting.


You do not understand how Nikon does it, they amplify the signal after the light has hit the sensor.



Sep 04, 2009 at 09:18 PM
rsg_1
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p.2 #2 · 12 bit vs 14 bit


Everyone uses some sort of Low Noise Amplifiers in order to ensure the signal is within the peak-to-peak voltage inputs for the A/Ds. You still need to apply voltage to the sensor for it convert the photons to electrical energy.


Sep 04, 2009 at 10:55 PM
James Markus
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p.2 #3 · 12 bit vs 14 bit


http://www.photomatter.com/Reviews/NikonD300d.html''


Sep 05, 2009 at 05:50 AM
TonyBeach
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p.2 #4 · 12 bit vs 14 bit


rsg_1 wrote:
You still need to apply voltage to the sensor for it convert the photons to electrical energy.


That voltage does not change on Nikon cameras regardless of what ISO you set it at.



Sep 05, 2009 at 12:32 PM
Alan321
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p.2 #5 · 12 bit vs 14 bit


Tony, are we getting enough real difference for the extra 2 bits ? I see the image you posted and yes there is some difference at the dark end of the scale but it seems to me to be way less than one stop when it ought to be 2 stops, and there may be other explanations. e.g.:

- Could you have gained or lost something at the bright end at the same time ?
- Could the mid-tone level have been altered in-camera depending on whether 14 or 12 bits are used ? (every camera model has a mid-tone level value determined by the manufacturer so that they can control how much of the available tonal capability of the camera is devoted to dark tones and how much to bright tones. The dark tones are therefore only part of the DR.)

Also, what exactly is meant by the number of stops shown on the left of your image ? i.e. what are they relative to ?

I'll have to read up on Thom Hogan's site to understand why 14-bits gives an improvement over 12 bits at high ISO and not low ISO when the DR has already dropped by several stops at high ISO.


With this post I am picking on no-one and criticizing no-one. In case anyone thinks I am being grumpy or pig-headed I am in fact just trying to understand how the benefit arises and how much there is.

- Alan



Sep 05, 2009 at 05:04 PM
TonyBeach
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p.2 #6 · 12 bit vs 14 bit


Alan321 wrote:
Tony, are we getting enough real difference for the extra 2 bits ? I see the image you posted and yes there is some difference at the dark end of the scale but it seems to me to be way less than one stop when it ought to be 2 stops, and there may be other explanations. e.g.:


I never said it ought to be two stops, that is a theoretical hypothesis based on a perfect readout from a sensor that has enough DR in the first instance to show more than can be contained in 12 bits. Also, the distribution of stops is not necessarily linear to the distribution of bits; so we could stretch more than two stops across two bits.

The real difference I see is that the 14 bit files have more data in them which can be extracted with heavy post processing. The files I showed were very heavily post processed because they would have otherwise been nothing more than dark patches.

- Could you have gained or lost something at the bright end at the same time ?

No.

- Could the mid-tone level have been altered in-camera depending on whether 14 or 12 bits are used ? (every camera model has a mid-tone level value determined by the manufacturer so that they can control how much of the available tonal capability of the camera is devoted to dark tones and how much to bright tones. The dark tones are therefore only part of the DR.)

No again, I've looked carefully at 12 bit/14 bit comparisons from my D300, and there is very little difference anywhere beyond barely detectable improvements in the 14 bit file (mostly I see it just below the midtones and not in the deep shadows).

Also, what exactly is meant by the number of stops shown on the left of your image ? i.e. what are they relative to ?

Start with the EV as far to the right as possible, then start cutting the exposure time in half, each halving equals one stop from maximum saturation (ergo, maximum DR). I could accomplish the same by placing the newspaper in a darkened place and lowering the ambient light in that place and simply taking one shot, but that would have been far more problematic.

I'll have to read up on Thom Hogan's site to understand why 14-bits gives an improvement over 12 bits at high ISO and not low ISO when the DR has already dropped by several stops at high ISO.

I don't recall Thom explaining the why, but merely saying that is where he sees the difference. The reason is that raising ISO in fact does clip the highlights and raises the previously hidden shadows up into the midtones.



Sep 05, 2009 at 07:58 PM
theSuede
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p.2 #7 · 12 bit vs 14 bit


I'm not Tony, but some of the questions are quite easy... (well, answerable - almost the same thing!)
- You gain just as much in the bright end, but when the signal is strong the relative difference that the improvement makes is very small. The effect is weak in the bright end, and strong at black-level - compared to the signal.
- No, raw-files are always (roughly) linear, no tonemapping or gamma has been added to the values. The value "100" over blacklevel will always mean a brightness twice that of the value "50" in a raw (except for the compressed raws...)

You have to grasp the concept of "noise-adding" or "noise-averaging" to know why certain things have the effect that it does. There are several "stages" of noise added to the signal while it is being transformed starting from "X" amount of light hitting the sensor surface resulting into a "N" value in the raw-file.

In short, 14-bit makes more difference in high ISO's because it mostly affects the lower effect read-outs from the sensor - and those lower effect readouts are amplified further up into the picture exposure if you amplify the signal more, i.e. choose a higher ISO. a read of say 20 electrons means one brightness level on base ISO, but twice the brightness on next ISO and so on. If base ISO is "100", the ISO1600 means that you only use the lowest 1/16 part of the available light gathering capability of the sensor, the equal brightness values comes from amplification, not measurement. This of course means that you amplify readnoise 16 times also...

Roughly, the noise sources are:

-1. "ShotNoise SN" - The incoming light is not "perfect" - it contains an uncertainty part that is equal to the square root of the measured amount. It the sensor measures 4 electrons, error margin (Shot Noise) is 2 electrons. Measure 9, SN is 3. Measure 100, SN is 10.
-2. "ReadNoise RN" - The number of charges that you collect has to be "moved" from the photosite to be converted to a voltage that an analog-digital converter can convert into a digital number. This "moving" includes a certain error-margin - which is the same as noise.
-3a. "AmplificationRatio AR" - Signal amplification multiplies the sum of the above. Both the signal and the noise is amplified equally.
-3b. "AmplificationNoise AN" - Signal amplification adds a bit of error margin in itself while amplifying the signal. This noise is added after amplification and is not included IN the amplification.
-4. "QuantizationNoise QN" - this is an effect of converting an analog signal into discrete numbers. The short explanation is that if the value measured is "55.5", the ADC has to choose either real number "55" of "56" to output, giving an error of ~0.5 to the value. This effect is very low in the overall noise adding (12 bits are ~4095 levels to choose from..).

With that done, it's time to start thinking about what changing different parts of the chain will change in the end result.

-1. The only way to improve shot noise is to increase the number photons converted. You must improve the Quantum Efficiency of the sensor (how good it is at converting light energy to electric energy), or increase the exposure (and this is not always possible). A normal QE value for a modern camera like the D300 is about 35-40, ie around 35% of the light hitting the sensor gets converted to electric charges.
improvement here will lower noise in ALL exposure levels and ISO's by the square root of the improvement.
-2. Read noise is fairly "static" - it does not change with amount of light converted. This means that it mostly affect shadows, highlights will show no change as the noise AMOUNT is bigger in the highlights (but less visible as the signal level is higher!). This is added to the shot noise, the sum equal to √(SN^2 + RN^2)
improvement here will only affect exposure levels where the read noise is a significant part of the sum, ie the collected light amount is very low. This is the extreme shadows, at least 10Ev down from saturation at the lowest amplification - i.e. at base ISO.
-3a. Does nothing more than multiply the signal from "-2.", signal and noise both equally.
improvement here is only possible by choosing a lower amplification (which will lower ISO), which means you have to get more light. This is not always possible... :-)
-3b. Amplification noise is added to the signal in the same way as read noise, by adding square roots of the active parts - but this is done AFTER amplification, which makes the effect equally strong in the shadows no matter what ISO you choose.
improvement here will affect the shadows on all ISO's, but it's not a very strong noise-source.
-4. This effect is in almost all applications lower than the minimum noise of the signal sum, so it's not very important as long as you're at 12-bit plus (12Ev SNR is about the limit of the best sensors today).
improvement here will ONLY make a difference on base ISO on the very best of sensors, in the values very close to zero (almost black)


Now what the "14-bit" readout does is to either do the readout slower (lowers RN and amplification noise - higher data rates always means more noise when you do signal processing. You get a more accurate readout.) - this is how the D3 and the D700 does it.
The D300/D3x and other SonyExmor based cameras seem to do a "multiple-read" - which they have to as the output from the sensors are limited so 12 bits by the AD converters on the sensor! - it takes the stored charges on the photosites and measure them several times. This will make the result more accurate by averaging the readouts and thereby lowering the effect of the RN and AN/QN by the square root of the number of sequential reads. 2 reads > 1.4 times less electronic noise "contamination", 4 reads > 2 times less electronic noise "contamination" (AND if you add 4 12-bit readouts you get - tada! - 14 bits).

Kinda long, but I was bored.

Edited on Sep 05, 2009 at 10:33 PM · View previous versions



Sep 05, 2009 at 10:10 PM
Steve Perry
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p.2 #8 · 12 bit vs 14 bit


theSuede wrote:
I'm not Tony, but some of the questions are quite easy... (well, answerable - almost the same thing!)
- You gain just as much in the bright end, but when the signal is strong the relative difference that the improvement makes is very small. The effect is weak in the bright end, and strong at black-level - compared to the signal.
- No, raw-files are always (roughly) linear, no tonemapping or gamma has been added to the values. The value "100" over blacklevel will always mean a brightness twice that of the value "50" in a raw (except for the compressed raws...)

You
...Show more

Wow that was an amazing explanation! Kind of humbles ya a little when you think about all the technology that goes into these things.

Thanks!



Sep 05, 2009 at 10:18 PM
louhand
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p.2 #9 · 12 bit vs 14 bit


Here's my 2 cents on this topic.
I too have grappled between 12 and 14 bit raw. That's a huge file, even at lossless compression, so it better be worth it. At first, I too couldn't see the difference between the two images. However, short of 1 or 2 comments here, I think most miss the point. What I have seen is what happens when post-processing is applied to the 12 and 14 bit versions. With 14 bit, there are less artifacts, smoother tones and sharper edges compared to 12bit images after pp has been applied.

For me, it's worth it.

Try it yourself. Take two identical photos at 12 and 14 bit.
Then, apply a set of RAW adjustments to a 12 bit image and save the steps. Apply the same steps to the same 14 bit image and have a closer look.




Sep 06, 2009 at 11:40 AM
Grognard
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p.2 #10 · 12 bit vs 14 bit


SO essentially, the 12 vs 14 debate comes down to an extra 2 bits of DR, and if you have a properly exposed photo it does not matter. It matters when you need to pull that last little bit of shadow or highlight detail out on a photo that you have slightly over or under exposed. Am I correct in this interpretation of the debate? I get 109 vs 130 in the D700 in 14 vs 12+.jpg fine. I shoot raw and .jpg just to cover my bases.


Sep 06, 2009 at 12:37 PM
James Markus
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p.2 #11 · 12 bit vs 14 bit


Perhaps it is futile to explain this from my pov, but I will use an analogy that may help some to understand. In this analogy we will use buckets of water. A 14 bit nef is (potentially 4.3 trillion colors) a 5 gallon bucket of water, and the 12 bit nef is (potentially 68 billion colors) a 1 gallon bucket of water. Then you pour your big buckets into a coffee cup (lcd - the limitation of the number of colors that your display can display...or perhaps a beer pitcher - CRT) Then you pour your water into a a 4-6 ounce juice glass. (the limitation of the human eye to distinguish individual colors...approximately 7 to 8 bits per color (potentially 16.7 million colors). You do all the adjusting to your hearts content, and then each container is poured into a shot glass of your working color space that your application uses. LAB color has approximately (potentially) 4.1 million colors...adobe 98 about 2.3 million, and srgb about 1.5 million colors)

When it all is said and done...both 14 bit and 12 bit files are reduced to essentially the same palette of colors. They both are a fraction of the number of colors that the camera captures. Sure, you can pour this fractional palette into a 20 gallon bucket at the end (16 bit tif), but the reduction has already occurred, and information has already been lost, or, if not lost, is not discernible

Lastly, the supposed ability to push or pull a 14 bit file beyond that of a 12 bit file does nothing to impress me to it's superiority. If your exposure is off 2-4 stops you will never get as good a result as you would if you had shot it at the proper exposure to begin with. I'm not sure if the "9 stops, 10 stops, or 11 stops" refers to being off + or - of a correct exposure, but if you are that far off...then you probably should stop taking pictures.



Sep 06, 2009 at 01:15 PM
TonyBeach
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p.2 #12 · 12 bit vs 14 bit


James Markus wrote:
Lastly, the supposed ability to push or pull a 14 bit file beyond that of a 12 bit file does nothing to impress me to it's superiority. If your exposure is off 2-4 stops you will never get as good a result as you would if you had shot it at the proper exposure to begin with. I'm not sure if the "9 stops, 10 stops, or 11 stops" refers to being off + or - of a correct exposure, but if you are that far off...then you probably should stop taking pictures.


Having exposure "off" by 2-4 stops is exactly what happens when you boost ISO, with ISO 1600 being 3 stops. Now dig down 6-7 stops more into your shadows and you are moving into the range of the examples I presented.

FWIW, my D300 14 bit Lossless Compressed files are smaller than my D200 12 bit Uncompressed files -- and with storage space being what it is, I hardly worry about that. Bottom line for me on this discussion is if I don't need the speed (a factor on the D300 and D3x) then I use 14 bits, if I need the speed than I don't hesitate to switch to 12 bits.



Sep 06, 2009 at 03:09 PM
James Markus
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p.2 #13 · 12 bit vs 14 bit


Tony, there is more than one way to get more photons to the sensor without boosting the ISO. Plus noise, and various gain added by boosting ISO seem to be better handled by hardware in camera - than after the fact. The OP was asking what practical advantage do you get by shooting 14 bit versus 12 bit. I am of the opinion that in normal use - there is no advantage at all to 14 bit, and there are some disadvantages. (speed). Theoretically the advantage to 14 bit may exist, but the human eye can not discern it, the computer monitor is incapable of displaying it, and the software can not even deal with 12 bit per color or 14 bit per color in it's working colorspace, and must necessarily reduce both to a mere fraction of the colors the camera captures. Of course I may be wrong, because I am only a photographer...but that is how I see it.

BTW...when i say "colors" - it would more technically correct to call it gradations of luminosity within each color channel...either cmyk or rgb.



Sep 06, 2009 at 06:18 PM
TonyBeach
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p.2 #14 · 12 bit vs 14 bit


Using 14 bits does not increase the photons reaching the sensor, it's just a matter of more accurately recording them.

Different RAW converters do make different use of the greater accuracy offered by the extra bits, and the potential for future developments to eek out more from the files always exists.

We're going around in circles now, because I already concede that the advantages of 14 bits are mostly theoretical. I would note that Thom Hogan believes it makes a difference in the files that he says he sees but would be hard pressed to show. Anyway, I'm sticking with my bottom line offered in my previous post in this thread.



Sep 07, 2009 at 12:03 AM
theSuede
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p.2 #15 · 12 bit vs 14 bit


James, your assumption is mostly correct regarding low ISO's - In higher ISOs the effect we're talking about is amplified linearly. The actual visibility difference between 12/14 bit raws/captures is 16 times stronger in ISO3200 than in ISO200. If something was buried in deepest black on ISO200 it's mercilessly exposed in ISO3200.

The statement that signal amplification is better handled in the camera is quite correct, up until ISO1600. After that there is really NO gain at all in increasing ISO, you can do it in post without losses, and you protect the highlights better. This has very little to do with 12/14 bits though, it's mostly about that there's where we're at in electronic noise limits now.

But we CAN see the differences in low ISOs - but NOT in normally processed photos - we have to keep that in mind. There IS a difference, but it's mostly a non-problem since it's so small that in a normally processed photo I'm not sure I could even measure the deep shadow noise difference, and of course even less SEE it. The "problem" is buried so far down into the darks that it's mostly invisible on normal presentation formats.


My "ending comment" would be exactly the same as Tony's. There IS a difference, more visible (but still slight) at higher ISOs, and if you don't absolutely need the fps - why bother with 12 bits? The files are only marginally smaller, and your computer will do exactly the same amount of work while processing them - and you loose nothing.



Sep 07, 2009 at 07:59 AM
HerbChong
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p.2 #16 · 12 bit vs 14 bit


who says that an exposure has to be off by any number of stops to benefit from pushing or pulling the shadows or highlights? shoot and edit in a less contrasty tone curve than just about all software defaults to and the differences happen that much sooner. 14 bits on the D3X produces cleaner shadow results without having underexposed any. it means i can shoot in higher contrast situations and still pull out shadow details on an image with a perfect histogram.

Herb...

James Markus wrote:
Lastly, the supposed ability to push or pull a 14 bit file beyond that of a 12 bit file does nothing to impress me to it's superiority. If your exposure is off 2-4 stops you will never get as good a result as you would if you had shot it at the proper exposure to begin with.




Sep 08, 2009 at 10:54 AM
theSuede
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p.2 #17 · 12 bit vs 14 bit


Thanks Herb. Then I'm not the only one that thinks that over-contrasty results are over-appreciated in many circumstances... :-)


Sep 08, 2009 at 12:42 PM
HerbChong
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p.2 #18 · 12 bit vs 14 bit


i post process using the linear tone curve in ACR/Lightroom and even then i find i bring up shadows to get the best tonality in my prints. in some situations, it's pretty easy to see that the D3X has less shadow noise than other cameras i have used and even if the changes are very subtle in 14-bit mode, it can't hurt and i can afford the disk space. i haven't changed my post processing procedures in a couple of years now. superb shadow detail with low noise matters a lot to me.

Herb...



Sep 08, 2009 at 03:20 PM
Rodolfo Paiz
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p.2 #19 · 12 bit vs 14 bit


Would love to hear about your post-processing workflow. I'm sure I could learn quite a bit from it.


Sep 08, 2009 at 08:23 PM
James Markus
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p.2 #20 · 12 bit vs 14 bit


Herb, I ask you then to shoot a static subject at the exact same exposure, and post process using the exact same adjustments at both 12 bit and 14 bit and post the results. Plus post the raw files. So I can see these better shadow details that are buried so deep. If you deliberately under or over expose...then add one shot at the correctly metered exposure. How about at a common iso like 400...tripod...identical framing and lighting. I'd love to see the results.

BTW my "push and pull" remark was spurred by the "9-11 stop" posted earlier in this thread. Which implied that at "9 stops" whatever that means...you could clearly see a difference in the text used as an example...in which all of them were unacceptable quality...IMO.



Sep 08, 2009 at 10:31 PM
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