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Archive 2009Canon EOS 7D Master thread
p.40 #1Canon EOS 7D Master thread
brainiac wrote:
1. The criss-cross pattern noise you see when you push the shadows really hard on the 5D2, its gone. Awesome.Yeah - awesome - all I need to do now is sell my two 5D's, buy two 7D's... no wait scrap that since my lenses are full-frame focal lengths... all I need to do now is wait until Canon releases a 5D successor with shadow noise handling like that in the excellent 500D and 7D. Seriously, it's great that Canon is addressing this problem, but it's a shame there isn't a competitive and affordable FULL-FRAME Canon body which doesn't suck at patterned shadow noise. (No, the classic 5D isn't competitive with A900 or D700.)
in some ways the 5D2 was like a year too late or a year too early
it is still very nice though
thedigitalbean wrote
I've downloaded the Imaging Resource RAW files and have taken a look at them using a Beta version of Camera Raw. A few notes:1. The criss-cross pattern noise you see when you push the shadows really hard on the 5D2, its gone. Awesome.
in some ways the 5D2 was like a year too late or a year too early
it is still very nice though
Sep 09, 2009 at 03:57 PM
p.40 #2Canon EOS 7D Master thread
thedigitalbean wrote:
..mind sharing ?Sorry no can do on that one 
Oh you can, you can. But you won't. Since you are evil.
kewlcanon wrote
^^^ where is the beta Camera Raw ?..mind sharing ?Oh you can, you can. But you won't. Since you are evil.
Sep 09, 2009 at 03:58 PM
p.40 #3Canon EOS 7D Master thread
thedigitalbean wrote:
5. How does it compare to a 5D2? Only compared the images briefly, but sadly the laws of physics still apply. The 5D2 has less noise at virtually all ISOs, however the difference isn't as huge as it was comparing the 5D2 to the 50D.
Can you put a number on that? IOW the 5DII is cleaner by how many stops?
5. How does it compare to a 5D2? Only compared the images briefly, but sadly the laws of physics still apply. The 5D2 has less noise at virtually all ISOs, however the difference isn't as huge as it was comparing the 5D2 to the 50D.
Can you put a number on that? IOW the 5DII is cleaner by how many stops?
Sep 09, 2009 at 04:21 PM
p.40 #4Canon EOS 7D Master thread
What if I add the word "please" ?
thedigitalbean wrote:
..mind sharing ?Sorry no can do on that one
thedigitalbean wrote:
kewlcanon wrote
^^^ where is the beta Camera Raw ?..mind sharing ?Sep 09, 2009 at 05:10 PM
p.40 #5Canon EOS 7D Master thread
Steezus wrote:
The irony is when people say they read all 30 pages and think someone else needs to get a life!
Ha!
The irony is when people say they read all 30 pages and think someone else needs to get a life!
Ha!
Sep 09, 2009 at 05:34 PM
p.40 #6Canon EOS 7D Master thread
Yohan Pamudji wrote:
Imaging Resource is weird...they present their camera to camera comparisons in SOOC JPG...why would you do that? It's just introducing NR into the equation.
It's ridiculous, you can instantly tell by the absence of chroma noise and the water colour like results (and chroma blotching in newer Canon cameras) that those files have been whacked with a NR silly stickIt's a bit roundabout, but if you go to the reviews for each camera you can typically see the full suite of samples including with NR off. Yeah, would be nice if you could select those from the Comparometer.
Yep, that's what I did and I selected NR Off and NR Low just to try and see what it's doing. My conclusion is that I like what I see and I'm buying.
I've seen this sort of painful agony before in high-end audio. People will agonize over what is better and never reach a point where they are happy and the entire "hobby" ends up being a point of stress. I enjoy doing all of the research and knowing the "whys" as well but eventually ya gotta say "screw it", buy it and go drink a beer.
If you don't like it you can sell it and buy something else.
Dawei Ye wrote
jmimac351 wrote
At least I learned to appreciate the review method imaging-resource uses. It was nice to be able to compare the same scene for different cameras because that became the question - how does this compare to the 50D? I think it's clearly superior to the 50D and if it does all the rest Canon claims then they've built quite a little hot rod.It's ridiculous, you can instantly tell by the absence of chroma noise and the water colour like results (and chroma blotching in newer Canon cameras) that those files have been whacked with a NR silly stick
Yep, that's what I did and I selected NR Off and NR Low just to try and see what it's doing. My conclusion is that I like what I see and I'm buying.
I've seen this sort of painful agony before in high-end audio. People will agonize over what is better and never reach a point where they are happy and the entire "hobby" ends up being a point of stress. I enjoy doing all of the research and knowing the "whys" as well but eventually ya gotta say "screw it", buy it and go drink a beer.
If you don't like it you can sell it and buy something else. Sep 09, 2009 at 05:49 PM
p.40 #7Canon EOS 7D Master thread
M Vers wrote:
Can you put a number on that? IOW the 5DII is cleaner by how many stops?
Using the Imaging Resource files, I compared ISOs 400 & 800 on the 7D vs ISO-800 on the 5DII.
To my eyes, the 5DII at ISO-800 is cleaner than the 7D at ISO-800 but noisier than 7D at ISO-400.
So, less that a step advantage at ISO 800 and NR=off.
thedigitalbean wrote
5. How does it compare to a 5D2? Only compared the images briefly, but sadly the laws of physics still apply. The 5D2 has less noise at virtually all ISOs, however the difference isn't as huge as it was comparing the 5D2 to the 50D.Using the Imaging Resource files, I compared ISOs 400 & 800 on the 7D vs ISO-800 on the 5DII.
To my eyes, the 5DII at ISO-800 is cleaner than the 7D at ISO-800 but noisier than 7D at ISO-400.
So, less that a step advantage at ISO 800 and NR=off.
Sep 09, 2009 at 06:37 PM
p.40 #8Canon EOS 7D Master thread
I just found this from 2 years ago!
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=25136368
It's pretty funny to look at that now. "CONFIRMED". HAH! It goes to show how wrong rumours can be.
Additionally, the posts stating "this will NEVER happen" are just as funny.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=25136368
It's pretty funny to look at that now. "CONFIRMED". HAH! It goes to show how wrong rumours can be.
Additionally, the posts stating "this will NEVER happen" are just as funny.
Sep 09, 2009 at 07:14 PM
p.40 #9Canon EOS 7D Master thread
M Vers wrote:
Can you put a number on that? IOW the 5DII is cleaner by how many stops?
I have been scrutnizing the files to try to find an answer to this myself but its hard to say. Comparing the 5D2 @ ISO 6400 vs. the 7D @ ISO 3200, the 7D is definitely cleaner, so the advantage to the 5D2 is definitely < 1 stop.
The difference becomes minimal at lower ISOs however. My guess would be the 5D2 is cleaner by 1/3 to 2/3 stops (maximum) depending on ISO. Most of the difference I see is in the highlights (which I find very odd). What is making the comparisons difficult for me is that the difference in color and contrast (which is most likely because the 7D hasn't been fully calibrated yet in my ACR beta, and they probably used different lenses). Whats interesting is comparing both at ISO 12800, though the 7D has more noise in the highlights, it has virtually no pattern noise, where as the 5D2 has distinct pattern noise.
thedigitalbean wrote
5. How does it compare to a 5D2? Only compared the images briefly, but sadly the laws of physics still apply. The 5D2 has less noise at virtually all ISOs, however the difference isn't as huge as it was comparing the 5D2 to the 50D.I have been scrutnizing the files to try to find an answer to this myself but its hard to say. Comparing the 5D2 @ ISO 6400 vs. the 7D @ ISO 3200, the 7D is definitely cleaner, so the advantage to the 5D2 is definitely < 1 stop.
The difference becomes minimal at lower ISOs however. My guess would be the 5D2 is cleaner by 1/3 to 2/3 stops (maximum) depending on ISO. Most of the difference I see is in the highlights (which I find very odd). What is making the comparisons difficult for me is that the difference in color and contrast (which is most likely because the 7D hasn't been fully calibrated yet in my ACR beta, and they probably used different lenses). Whats interesting is comparing both at ISO 12800, though the 7D has more noise in the highlights, it has virtually no pattern noise, where as the 5D2 has distinct pattern noise.
Sep 09, 2009 at 07:58 PM
p.40 #10Canon EOS 7D Master thread
veroman wrote:
>...I want to see a Canon crop camera that will let me shoot at f/13-16.
Reply by Braniac:
>.....Holy crap - I didn't know those apertures were disabled. They never mention the limitations in the press releases. Do you think a firmware hack might re-enable f13-16?
My 50D Canon crop camera is able to shoot at f13-16 +, What's this all about? Do some of the Canon crops really not shoot at these aps? My 50D is pretty new.
>...I want to see a Canon crop camera that will let me shoot at f/13-16.
Reply by Braniac:
>.....Holy crap - I didn't know those apertures were disabled. They never mention the limitations in the press releases. Do you think a firmware hack might re-enable f13-16?
My 50D Canon crop camera is able to shoot at f13-16 +, What's this all about? Do some of the Canon crops really not shoot at these aps? My 50D is pretty new.
Sep 09, 2009 at 08:08 PM
p.40 #11Canon EOS 7D Master thread
ckoffend wrote:
veroman wrote:
>...I want to see a Canon crop camera that will let me shoot at f/13-16.
Reply by Braniac:
>.....Holy crap - I didn't know those apertures were disabled. They never mention the limitations in the press releases. Do you think a firmware hack might re-enable f13-16?
My 50D Canon crop camera is able to shoot at f13-16 +, What's this all about? Do some of the Canon crops really not shoot at these aps? My 50D is pretty new.
They're talking about diffraction limitation... the camera's not limited but the image quality is certainly degraded stopped down that much.
veroman wrote:
>...I want to see a Canon crop camera that will let me shoot at f/13-16.
Reply by Braniac:
>.....Holy crap - I didn't know those apertures were disabled. They never mention the limitations in the press releases. Do you think a firmware hack might re-enable f13-16?
My 50D Canon crop camera is able to shoot at f13-16 +, What's this all about? Do some of the Canon crops really not shoot at these aps? My 50D is pretty new.
They're talking about diffraction limitation... the camera's not limited but the image quality is certainly degraded stopped down that much.
Sep 09, 2009 at 08:26 PM
p.40 #12Canon EOS 7D Master thread
thedigitalbean wrote:
Can you put a number on that? IOW the 5DII is cleaner by how many stops?I have been scrutnizing the files to try to find an answer to this myself but its hard to say. Comparing the 5D2 @ ISO 6400 vs. the 7D @ ISO 3200, the 7D is definitely cleaner, so the advantage to the 5D2 is definitely < 1 stop.
The difference becomes minimal at lower ISOs however. My guess would be the 5D2 is cleaner by 1/3 to 2/3 stops (maximum) depending on ISO. Most of the difference I see is in the highlights (which I find very odd). What is making the comparisons difficult for me is that the difference...Show more →
You're absolutely right- I don't see any of that ugly banding noise in the 7D samples so far- it seems the banding noise is prevalent in the 5D2 shadows at all ISOs....
M Vers wrote
thedigitalbean wrote
5. How does it compare to a 5D2? Only compared the images briefly, but sadly the laws of physics still apply. The 5D2 has less noise at virtually all ISOs, however the difference isn't as huge as it was comparing the 5D2 to the 50D.The difference becomes minimal at lower ISOs however. My guess would be the 5D2 is cleaner by 1/3 to 2/3 stops (maximum) depending on ISO. Most of the difference I see is in the highlights (which I find very odd). What is making the comparisons difficult for me is that the difference...Show more →
You're absolutely right- I don't see any of that ugly banding noise in the 7D samples so far- it seems the banding noise is prevalent in the 5D2 shadows at all ISOs....
Sep 09, 2009 at 08:27 PM
p.40 #13Canon EOS 7D Master thread
thedigitalbean wrote:
I have been scrutnizing the files to try to find an answer to this myself but its hard to say. Comparing the 5D2 @ ISO 6400 vs. the 7D @ ISO 3200, the 7D is definitely cleaner, so the advantage to the 5D2 is definitely < 1 stop.
The difference becomes minimal at lower ISOs however. My guess would be the 5D2 is cleaner by 1/3 to 2/3 stops (maximum) depending on ISO. Most of the difference I see is in the highlights (which I find very odd). What is making the comparisons difficult for me is that the difference...Show more →
Aravind, thanks for taking the time to work this out. Great info. But now you have me wondering about a 7D vs MkIII comparison. I was expecting the 1D to be much better than the 7D at high ISO (3200+), but the 7D being so close to the 5DMkII would suggest that may not be the case. Would you agree?
Mark
I have been scrutnizing the files to try to find an answer to this myself but its hard to say. Comparing the 5D2 @ ISO 6400 vs. the 7D @ ISO 3200, the 7D is definitely cleaner, so the advantage to the 5D2 is definitely < 1 stop.
The difference becomes minimal at lower ISOs however. My guess would be the 5D2 is cleaner by 1/3 to 2/3 stops (maximum) depending on ISO. Most of the difference I see is in the highlights (which I find very odd). What is making the comparisons difficult for me is that the difference...Show more →
Aravind, thanks for taking the time to work this out. Great info. But now you have me wondering about a 7D vs MkIII comparison. I was expecting the 1D to be much better than the 7D at high ISO (3200+), but the 7D being so close to the 5DMkII would suggest that may not be the case. Would you agree?
Mark
Sep 09, 2009 at 09:04 PM
p.40 #14Canon EOS 7D Master thread
I just compared the 7D RAW files to the D300 NEFs (they don't have D300s files yet) and to my pleasant surprise, the 7D is on par at lower ISOs and cleaner at higher ISOs on a per pixel level.
Sep 09, 2009 at 09:06 PM
p.40 #15Canon EOS 7D Master thread
^^^ wow much higher MPs and cleaner...hmmm....wait till 1D IV shows up
Sep 09, 2009 at 09:08 PM
p.40 #16Canon EOS 7D Master thread
msalvetti wrote:
Aravind, thanks for taking the time to work this out. Great info. But now you have me wondering about a 7D vs MkIII comparison. I was expecting the 1D to be much better than the 7D at high ISO (3200+), but the 7D being so close to the 5DMkII would suggest that may not be the case. Would you agree?
Mark
Mark,
I dislike speculating without being to able to a side by side (Imaging Resource doesn't have RAW files for download for the 1D3). However based on my experience using a 1D3 and how the images compare to the 1Ds3 and 5D2, my guess is that any difference between the 1D3 and 7D is going to be minimal, with the edge maybe even going to the 7D on large prints due to its higher resolution (which shouldn't be surprising, we are talking about 2 1/2 years of development here).
Aravind, thanks for taking the time to work this out. Great info. But now you have me wondering about a 7D vs MkIII comparison. I was expecting the 1D to be much better than the 7D at high ISO (3200+), but the 7D being so close to the 5DMkII would suggest that may not be the case. Would you agree?
Mark
Mark,
I dislike speculating without being to able to a side by side (Imaging Resource doesn't have RAW files for download for the 1D3). However based on my experience using a 1D3 and how the images compare to the 1Ds3 and 5D2, my guess is that any difference between the 1D3 and 7D is going to be minimal, with the edge maybe even going to the 7D on large prints due to its higher resolution (which shouldn't be surprising, we are talking about 2 1/2 years of development here).
Sep 09, 2009 at 09:15 PM
p.40 #17Canon EOS 7D Master thread
kewlcanon wrote:
^^^ wow much higher MPs and cleaner...hmmm....wait till 1D IV shows up
No kidding, the 1D IV will hopefully knock all our socks off..
^^^ wow much higher MPs and cleaner...hmmm....wait till 1D IV shows up
No kidding, the 1D IV will hopefully knock all our socks off..
Sep 09, 2009 at 09:16 PM
p.40 #18Canon EOS 7D Master thread
I personally am now satisfied the high ISO image quality of the 7D will be ok. Dynamic range and color fidelity is still a question. However the biggest question for me is how well the AF will perform. I guess I'll have to wait until I have one in my hands before evaluating that.
Sep 09, 2009 at 09:22 PM
p.40 #19Canon EOS 7D Master thread
thedigitalbean wrote:
I personally am now satisfied the high ISO image quality of the 7D will be ok. Dynamic range and color fidelity is still a question. However the biggest question for me is how well the AF will perform. I guess I'll have to wait until I have one in my hands before evaluating that.
+100 on the AF performance. I'm REALLY waiting for the first field tests which address this. I'm hoping for more than just an incremental improvement there.
Edited on Sep 10, 2009 at 10:17 AM · View previous versions
I personally am now satisfied the high ISO image quality of the 7D will be ok. Dynamic range and color fidelity is still a question. However the biggest question for me is how well the AF will perform. I guess I'll have to wait until I have one in my hands before evaluating that.
+100 on the AF performance. I'm REALLY waiting for the first field tests which address this. I'm hoping for more than just an incremental improvement there.
Edited on Sep 10, 2009 at 10:17 AM · View previous versions
Sep 09, 2009 at 09:29 PM
p.40 #20Canon EOS 7D Master thread
thedigitalbean wrote:
Mark,
I dislike speculating without being to able to a side by side (Imaging Resource doesn't have RAW files for download for the 1D3). However based on my experience using a 1D3 and how the images compare to the 1Ds3 and 5D2, my guess is that any difference between the 1D3 and 7D is going to be minimal, with the edge maybe even going to the 7D on large prints due to its higher resolution (which shouldn't be surprising, we are talking about 2 1/2 years of development here).
Thanks for the careful reply. Should be a very interesting fall! Looking forward to a new camera for the upcoming youth and high school hockey seasons. Just need to pick between a used MkIII and a new 7D. It may come down to the AF.
Mark
Mark,
I dislike speculating without being to able to a side by side (Imaging Resource doesn't have RAW files for download for the 1D3). However based on my experience using a 1D3 and how the images compare to the 1Ds3 and 5D2, my guess is that any difference between the 1D3 and 7D is going to be minimal, with the edge maybe even going to the 7D on large prints due to its higher resolution (which shouldn't be surprising, we are talking about 2 1/2 years of development here).
Thanks for the careful reply. Should be a very interesting fall! Looking forward to a new camera for the upcoming youth and high school hockey seasons. Just need to pick between a used MkIII and a new 7D. It may come down to the AF.
Mark
Sep 09, 2009 at 09:38 PM