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Archive 2009 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

  
 
theSuede
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p.197 #1 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread


Skibum: Yes, I have, 12 bodies sofar actually - but only two were taken through all the ISOs, my main interest was the banding effect at lower (base) ISO as it has some very grave impacts on the software I'm working on right now. With frame-subtraction calculated Sdevs they all measure about the same, but with single frame Sdevs they all indicate a curvature like the DxO curves - more or most often less linear. The worst sample I have measured myself rated lower than 10Ev DR at base ISO (due to banding contaminating the measurement), and 11.4Ev with framesubtraction - that gives a lot of difference in linearity... At camera-stated ISO3200 the difference is not measurable, both noise-sampling techniques give just over 8Ev. That's a 1.5Ev linearity error over a 5Ev range. And that "5Ev" range is really a 4.6Ev difference due to some "ISO-value" compression by Canon - in the end this actually correlates very well with the -2.6Ev slope of the DxO measurement.
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Alundeb: Spatially dependent noise sources (banding) affect low ISOs more than high ISOs, even at 18% saturation. It DOES have a very big effect on the figures you get - try it and see. The banding effect compared to total noise then gradually diminishes until it's almost non-existent at ISO12800, even in very "bandy" testsubjects. The slope of the 18% SNR is -2.6Ev per doubling at DxO, which is quite exactly as expected, if you have a spatially dependent noise-source present.

Measured with frame-subtraction, the numbers are VERY linear at -2.9dB per doubling of ISO.

Is this a misunderstanding regarding the usage of the word "kink"? For me a "kink" means a very local deviation from a set curve - as in a local dip or rise. No doubt the 7D charts show some decidedly "non-linear" functions, but they correlate to everything we know sofar quite well.



Dec 12, 2009 at 07:13 PM
thw2
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p.197 #2 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread


theSuede wrote:
Spatially dependent noise sources (banding) affect low ISOs more than high ISOs, even at 18% saturation. It DOES have a very big effect on the figures you get - try it and see. The banding effect compared to total noise then gradually diminishes until it's almost non-existent at ISO12800, even in very "bandy" testsubjects. The slope of the 18% SNR is -2.6Ev per doubling at DxO, which is quite exactly as expected, if you have a spatially dependent noise-source present.


Does LR 2.6 take care of this? My copy is free from low ISO banding issues but I'm afraid I'll have to exchange it for another copy due to AF inconsistencies.



Dec 12, 2009 at 10:26 PM
theSuede
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p.197 #3 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread


It works... Quite well, actually! :-) Better than I would have suspected before I started fiddling around with the internal parameters of the DNG input profiles (where you can "fool" LR into different demosaicing behaviors).

It would of course be better if the banding wasn't there at all - it has to affect picture detail (and not in a good way) I suppose. It's very hard to say exactly how the "BayerGreenSplit" parameter works from just black-boxing it.



Dec 12, 2009 at 11:05 PM
ejmartin
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p.197 #4 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread


theSuede wrote:
Skibum: Yes, I have, 12 bodies sofar actually - but only two were taken through all the ISOs, my main interest was the banding effect at lower (base) ISO as it has some very grave impacts on the software I'm working on right now.



What does your software do?



Dec 13, 2009 at 12:27 AM
droopy1592
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p.197 #5 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread


Rate individual cameras for screwups i.e. deviations

Did I guess right ?



Dec 13, 2009 at 12:33 AM
durandal2
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p.197 #6 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread


thw2 wrote:
The same can be said for 450D vs 7D. As a matter of fact, the 450D is sharper both on the pixel as well as image level. This is true from f/4 onwards so it cannot be explained by diffraction alone. Weird.


learn how to focus.



Dec 13, 2009 at 08:05 AM
Zenon Char
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p.197 #7 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread


mfurman wrote:
I KNOW that I made the right decision.


I hope you don't take this the wrong way but it is obviously you really don't like the 7D and you made a sound decision. I respect that. You gotta do what you gotta do. I'm not sure why but it appears you are working very hard to convince the rest of the world that it is a crappy camera.

Personally I do not give a rats butt about black frames, graphs, tests, etc. All I want to know is how does it perform and how do my images look. In my opinion the 7D produces superb images. If it did not I would not own it. I can back that up by posting some if you wish. I'm not trying to convince anyone else about that either. Each to his own.

Again I'm not trying to be a jerk about this. If I appear to be doing so my apologies. I'm just puzzled about your persistence.



Dec 13, 2009 at 10:27 AM
droopy1592
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p.197 #8 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread


I think more people need to watch the BandH videos


Dec 13, 2009 at 10:29 AM
Sanlameer
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p.197 #9 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread


Zenon Char wrote:
I hope you don't take this the wrong way but it is obviously you really don't like the 7D and you made a sound decision. I respect that. You gotta do what you gotta do. I'm not sure why but it appears you are working very hard to convince the rest of the world that it is a crappy camera.

Personally I do not give a rats butt about black frames, graphs, tests, etc. All I want to know is how does it perform and how do my images look. In my opinion the 7D produces superb images. If
...Show more

I totally agree with Zenon Char-very diplomatic and well said. If one makes a decision, and it is the correct decision, why try to justify your decision on various websites? (FM, DPR) Or was the decision not the correct one, or do you have an axe to grind with Canon, 7D??

Ben



Dec 13, 2009 at 11:54 AM
droopy1592
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p.197 #10 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread


That's why I think he has to talk himself into thinking he made the right decision. You have six types of posters

1) Those that already have DSLRs better than the 7D
2) Those that wish they had a 7D
3) Those that can't afford to upgrade
4) Those that chose to wait
5) Those that have to prove to others that it's not worth for themselves to upgrade, claiming that it's not enough of an upgrade.
6) Standard trolls/Nikon users



Dec 13, 2009 at 03:06 PM
jorkata
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p.197 #11 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread


7) Those who are itching to upgrade but (strongly) dislike the 7D’s image quality.


Dec 13, 2009 at 03:15 PM
Jim Victory
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p.197 #12 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread


jorkata wrote:
7) Those who are itching to upgrade but (strongly) dislike the 7D’s image quality.


Those who don't know what their talking about and have never used the camera.

Jim



Dec 13, 2009 at 04:00 PM
skibum5
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p.197 #13 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread


The tricky thing about sensor tests is that you need to realize that you can't read too much into any one thing and to try to keep everything in mind and about what aspect may matter more than others and when (and also to realize that lots of these differences in SNR and DR are not necessarily so easily evident to the eye).


1. if you compare jpg output who knows what in the world the settings were, very hard to compare sensor performance

2. if you do look at RAW data that elimates jpg engine issues but you need to remember what the tests do and do not do

a.

for example, let us accept the DxO result that the 50D and 7D have the same DR at ISO12,800 (although I still keep getting more for the 7D, with every single body myself)

now that is a valid piece of information, the same DR

and yet if you only look at that and don't look at tests of pattern noise/various sorts of banding that is NOT the whole picture, in fact, the pattern/banding differences are often more relevant in practice and yet just about no review sites look into this aspect; the differences here between a 7D and 50D or 40D and 50D or 5D2 and 1Ds3 are greater than the impact of the measured DR differences

you can potentially have a camera that rates better for DR have less usable DR when you go to process pics since certain forms of pattern noise are rather objectional to the eye and don't scale away easily either (although some aftermarket programs can help, which complicates things further)

furthermore, even if a single pattern/banding number tested with data is listed even this may potentiall miss the real story, case in point the 2nd and 3rd 7D bodies I've look at carefully; body 2 would appear to do a little better in this regard with a one size fits all RAW test than body 3 and yet if you take a quick peak at a converted image from both you'll instantly notice that while body 3 has much more banding over the left 1/6th of the image and noticeably more over the bottom 1/6th of the image it has the same or less over the rest of the image, in particular it has noticeably less in the entire center region of the image which is perhaps the most important part of the frame so in real world images processed the noticeably worse performance over the bottom and left 1/6th of the image is only very rarely even half as objectionable as the modestly worse performance of the second copy over the rest of the image

SO:
a simple look at a RAW DR test might peg the 50D and 7D as even performance at high iso and yet the real world visual result is that the 7D generally does, effectively, noticeably better in this case

and a 7D body that tests a little better with a single broad stroke pattern noise/banding RAW test results actually looks WORSE on a large majority of images shot (well, images shot where shadow detail is important, otherwise it is all moot)


b.

some cameras, really only the 7D in terms of DSLR, have rather unbalanced green channels and more column to column variation

a basic RAW test would show better SNR due to the green channel being a bit more transmissive in one channel and a few other improvements when comparing the 7D to the 50D (ignoring for now the column to column stuff and pretending it doesnt exist) and yet a real world look at an image processed with a program that did not take into account the 7D's special behavior would show much worse SNR right up to the very bright parts of a picture as well in a rather objectional looking form from the 7D than the 50D at even ISO100

many noticed this and complained on various forums

OTOH a program that did take into account the special treatment the 7D requires would maintain such a hypothetical measured SNR advantage and possibly even ever so slightly increase it and yet if you didn't test for micro-contrast and detail you wouldn't notice that some of the extra detail grab of the 7D compared to the 50D has now been given back (although it still does grab more)

the DxO RAW test for SNR doesn't seem to show any advantage for the 7D over the 50D really and yet this might be because it is picking up certain types of 7D imbalance as noise but if you have a converter that can undo it reasonable well the real world processed images may suddenly do better than the DxO results would imply and the 7D might actually have an advantage large enough to notice over the 50D, haven't really checked but it seems quite possible, although it won't be anything at all crazy like all the 1-2 stops better nonsense!!!

c.

if all you look at are normalized SNR and DR RAW tests, don't forget about resolution and detail retention and the detail that a 7D can capture may in many cases be more important than minor SNR/DR differences, it all depends

keep in mind that at worst you could get the same detail as a lower MP cam only with less demosaic artifacts too

try to get all the detail you can out of the 20D/D300s and you get jaggies and stair-steps and moire and you can easily beat that detail level while maintaining a very nice and natural smooth look with a 7D

you can apply special NR algorithms and preserve same visual amounts of noise while retaining detail better in many cases

for single shot high dynamic shots at lowest ISO some of the nikons with better DR may be more useful and yet for a bird or animal off in the distance or even any general picture where absolute max DR is not THE key the 7D files tends to come out noticeably better than the D300s file

d.

detail, SNR, DR, pattern/banding are still not the whole story as some cameras, notably many recent canon bodies 'cheat' with the CFA a bit so you can potentially end up with mushy color, more monochromatic shadows or larger scale chroma clumping; otoh chroma noise is usually easier to remove without detail loss than luminance noise which the more transmissive CFA may help a bit so it's all tradeoffs when it comes to more transmissve CFA and more MP, wanting to push it far but not jump the shark with it all




side note, i will be a snob , and say that the 7D doesn't peform as well overall as the 5D2 unless distance limited (where it actually does better) (I see some insist the 'clean pixels' of the 5D2 may it do better even for birding especially at high ISO, not that I see....; I see some insist the 7D fully matches the 5D2 at the image level for detail, DR and SNR, not that I see aside perhaps from DR at times)

side, side note, freezing rain here, you go out and shoot in it!



Dec 13, 2009 at 04:26 PM
skibum5
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p.197 #14 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread


for kicks here are some sloppy samples to show what I mean about banding (they don't really show it the best, but whatever, quick and easy and you can still tell)

at the left and bottom camera 3 does worse and measures worse overall in a quick RAW test and YET it does better in the entire center region and same elsewhere so it actually is more easily processable than camera 2 despite measuring worse on a quick performance test that treated the entire sensor with the same weighting

camera 2 then camera 3 for each pair

(ignore detail differences, focus was not quite the same)

left:
http://skibum4.smugmug.com/photos/739793422_LTCAJ-O.jpg
http://skibum4.smugmug.com/photos/739795961_9TEnk-O.jpg

bottom:
http://skibum4.smugmug.com/photos/739791337_jxksm-O.jpg
http://skibum4.smugmug.com/photos/739794076_aS4N8-O.jpg

upper center:
http://skibum4.smugmug.com/photos/739791770_hZUUX-O.jpg
http://skibum4.smugmug.com/photos/739794394_DHjgR-O.jpg

lower center:
http://skibum4.smugmug.com/photos/739792871_kiaDc-O.jpg
http://skibum4.smugmug.com/photos/739795443_csijC-O.jpg




Dec 13, 2009 at 04:37 PM
skibum5
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p.197 #15 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread


actually MP count and detail pulled in is really the main difference between sensors of a given size in the current era for the most part, sometimes pattern banding differences can show up too (back around say 2005, it was different, where say a 20D might do much better than other options)

the SNR and engineering DR and so on all simiarl enough (aside from a few nikons maybe doing the engineering DR noticeably better at lowest ISO)






Dec 13, 2009 at 04:57 PM
thw2
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p.197 #16 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread


durandal2 wrote:
learn how to focus.


Well, tripod mounted, cable release, manual focus under 10x magnification in live view

How much more do you need? This is basically the same as repeating Darwin Wiggett's tests



Dec 13, 2009 at 05:00 PM
skibum5
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p.197 #17 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread


hmm just noticed that once you remove mazing, it sometimes makes the vertical repetitive banding easier to spot and I can even notice a little in the WHITE patch of a color checker chart super well illuminated by flash, so it's definitely gain not offset

it does vary in degree body to body and across the sensor within a body, and oddly, it seems like it may ever vary a bit in degree vertically along a column as well

it's still is a little odd that a rare few 7D seem to max out at 10-15% difference of stddev between G1 and G2 for a patch while most max out at 20% and some max out at 30% with the ones with the higher max more prone to mazing with ACR 5.5. It seems a little bit large of a disparity to purely be by design. Maybe the bulk of it is the new CFA and then the degree of column to column difference can add something to some copies and then the standard variance around the ideal from copy to copy.

Using ACR 5.5 or even DPP 3.7.1.1 the difference between copies can be a real world noticeably difference in terms of artifacts and banding. Using ACR 5.6 (and it is claimed DPP 3.7.2, although I have not tried it yet myself) the difference between copies doesn't seem apparent in terms of mazing/artifacts (even the 10% vs 30% copies appear equally banding free) but banding difference can still be seen.

ACR 5.6 seems to remove the mazing in all though. It doesn't seem like it removes the column variance, at least not all of it. At the very least the G1/G2 seems to play a much larger role in inducing converters to maze than the column to column stuff.

read noise can differ by at least as much as 14% copy to copy, in the end that is not much though

just random ramblings



Dec 13, 2009 at 08:15 PM
bushwacker
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p.197 #18 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread


Here's one from POP PHOTO DEC. Test, as far as I can remember 40D and older [ same with rebels ] have noise levels under [at ISO 100 & 200 ] 1.0.... like 0.7 which popphoto gave it as extremely low.


DEC. POPPHOTO ISSUE 7D FULL TEST... it's currently out, go buy your copy.

ISO Noise:

ISO 100 = 1.3 Very Low
ISO 200 = 1.5 Very Low
ISO 400 = 1.8 Low
ISO 800 = 2.1 Moderately Low
ISO 1600 = 2.3 Moderately Low
ISO 3200 = 2.4 Moderate
ISO 6400 = 2.8 Moderate
ISO 12800 = 4.3 Unacceptable




Dec 13, 2009 at 09:07 PM
theSuede
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p.197 #19 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread


@Emil - not enough, yet... :-) - since I'm tied up in more projects that has to clear first. I do colour research, which lately has expanded into consumer cameras. I started out with machine vision systems applications for automated web inspection in gravure/flexo/offset printing.


Side note:
I think DxO was kind of stumped when they did the 7D. To remake their testing procedures to "fit" cameras with banding noise (by doing framesubtraction in stead), or just carry on as usual. The figures they published indicates that they made no excuses for the 7D, but published the "standard procedure" results - as can be seen in the 18% SNR curve among other things. Skibum is probably right - a perfectly banding free testbody would produce higher figures, and a more linear curve. There's no other reasonable explanation for the curve behaviour the test exhibits. But I still persist - the DxO figures correlate very well with single-frame tests that I've done.

This also means that software that can compensate for the channel imbalances (sofar DPP and LR26) will show noticeably better pictorial results than the DxO-test would imply.

Side note 2:
IF Nikon would produce a camera with the read noise levels of the 7D, and the Qe/mm2 and the total freedom from banding of the D300s, at 12MP - it would have a base ISO DR of 13Ev... And an ISO6400 DR of almost 9Ev - that's more than the 5D2, even when resolution performance is accounted for... :-)



Dec 14, 2009 at 12:40 AM
thw2
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p.197 #20 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread


theSuede wrote:
IF Nikon would produce a camera with the read noise levels of the 7D, and the Qe/mm2 and the total freedom from banding of the D300s, at 12MP - it would have a base ISO DR of 13Ev... And an ISO6400 DR of almost 9Ev - that's more than the 5D2, even when resolution performance is accounted for... :-)


Ha, so it can be done after all! This also implies that a LARGER sensor with poorer technology is no match for a SMALLER sensor with better technology.

Just a thought: did Canon ignore what they consider to be 'slight' degradation in image quality in favor of HD video and 14-bit delivery?



Dec 14, 2009 at 06:01 AM
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